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my question is a simple one.
will the extra dmg from smite or cavalier challenge be multiplied bye a critical hit?
for example: if a cavalier attacks with a longsword (x2 crit, and crits, will his dmg then be (1d8+ str mod + challenge)x2 or (1d8+str mod)x2 + challenge?
i was recently reading open designs cavaliers creed and saw the following statement: " ....Because it is considered extra damage,though, it is not multiplied by critical hits or other effects"?? so witch is it?
I can't speak for this "Cavaliers' Creed" feature, but in general flat numeric values always multiply. So smite damage multiplies. What doesn't is extra damage dice such as a rogue's sneak attack. That is to say... random numbers don't multiple, static numbers do. That's a pretty good rule of thumb.
ok that was also what i was thinking, but still it can add up to alot of dmg especially with spirited charge
I can't speak for this "Cavaliers' Creed" feature, but in general flat numeric values always multiply. So smite damage multiplies. What doesn't is extra damage dice such as a rogue's sneak attack. That is to say... random numbers don't multiple, static numbers do. That's a pretty good rule of thumb.
+1
good rule of thumb, and im hard pressed to find anything that breaks it. Unless it specifically says it dosnt multiply.
yes it can, actually a level 10 cavalier, with spirited charge that crits (with a lance), will do normal damage times 5. that usually amounts to something like (1d8+30)x5 a wooping 190 max damage. A proper build one will do even more. But that is not important as the crit will generally kill everything
yes it can, actually a level 10 cavalier, with spirited charge that crits (with a lance), will do normal damage times 5. that usually amounts to something like (1d8+30)x5 a wooping 190 max damage. A proper build one will do even more. But that is not important as the crit will generally kill everything
How do you get x5? something about the cavalier I am missing?
yes it can, actually a level 10 cavalier, with spirited charge that crits (with a lance), will do normal damage times 5. that usually amounts to something like (1d8+30)x5 a wooping 190 max damage. A proper build one will do even more. But that is not important as the crit will generally kill everythingHow do you get x5? something about the cavalier I am missing?
If lances are X3 crit weapons and they do double damage normally on a charge then it should be X4. When doing crits the multipliers don't work like real world math. PHB 304. This is another rule that never got copied and pasted over.
PS:This is more for Nick.
How do you get x5? something about the cavalier I am missing?If lances are X3 crit weapons and they do double damage normally on a charge then it should be X4.
And spirited charge raises the lance on a charge multipler from x2 to x3, giving you a total of x5.
And spirited charge raises the lance on a charge multipler from x2 to x3, giving you a total of x5.How do you get x5? something about the cavalier I am missing?If lances are X3 crit weapons and they do double damage normally on a charge then it should be X4.
ok. I could not recall the lance crit or exactly how spirited charge work so I only posted a sample of how it would work out.
np wraith. everyone makes a mistake once in a while, but spirited charge and the lance crit, does combine to x5, as they are both x3 individually. aka x3 + x3 = x5.
Cavaliers Creed author here...
I based my judgement on the following text...
Page 144 of the players guide under weapon qualities: Critical
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage
is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
The Cavalier's challenge is described thusly...
The cavalier's melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to the cavalier's level.
So I went with the "safe" interpretation. It's definitely not clear cut but the bonus is so large and the multipliers huge that it seemed like a good way to call it on the side of play balance.
On the flip side in the combat section it says that "extra dice" are never multiplied so it could be the other section was just shortening that. Hard to say for certain.
Honestly... the rules are just a bit too vague on what multiplies and what doesn't. Challenge is a big damage bonus, not quite as big as sneak attack, but much more reliable and on a character with a stronger attack bonus and options for multiple attacks and expanded crits. If it does get multiplied, its even better than I thought it was.
If anyone can find any official ruling on it, please post and if possible shoot me a link. Sigfried@gmail.com I try to research all the feats and applicable rules but there are many cases where rules are described in more than one location and that trips me up more than anything else.
PS: Thanks for reading the PDF :)
actually i cant find any official ruling out there, but that is not to say that there isnt one.
But regarding the ekstra damage from the challenge, then yes i agree its a good ability, but considering the number of uses a day, its also very limited. Come to think of it, you should maybe look for a faq on paladins, as their smite evil should work identical to the challange. In general i like the effort you guys out into your pdfs though.
The following two quotes are from the Combat chapter of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook:
Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
I have always understood this to mean that on a critical hit all static damage bonuses such as your Strength bonus, enchantment bonus, Weapon Specialisation feat bonus, Smite Evil bonus, Challenge bonus, etc. are multiplied on a critical hit, and any variable damage bonus i.e. all extra damage expressed as +XdY is not multiplied.
Cavaliers Creed author here...
I based my judgement on the following text...
Page 144 of the players guide under weapon qualities: Critical
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage
is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.The Cavalier's challenge is described thusly...
The cavalier's melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to the cavalier's level.So I went with the "safe" interpretation. It's definitely not clear cut but the bonus is so large and the multipliers huge that it seemed like a good way to call it on the side of play balance.
Using that interpretation, ONLY the damage dice themselves would get multiplied -- no strength bonus, no power attack bonus, no enhancement bonus. This is clearly not the safe interpretation, because everyone and their mother knows you multiply those on crits.
Using that interpretation, ONLY the damage dice themselves would get multiplied -- no strength bonus, no power attack bonus, no enhancement bonus. This is clearly not the safe interpretation, because everyone and their mother knows you multiply those on crits.
Not necessarily because none of those are referred to as "extra" damage.
It comes down to if the word "extra" is used in a specific game sense or in the general sense.
At any rate I think considering all the passages, the notion that it is only extra dice that are not multiplied makes the most sense, although from a balance perspective... I'm not sure it really makes much difference as flat bonuses are often as large or larger than dice based ones, and are far more common.
I imagine the idea was at one point that sneak attack damage was just too big to go multiplying into combat rolls, but cavaliers challenge is pretty darn beefy.
I'll adjust my book on its next update though as I think the weight of evidence says it should multiply... and yield some absolutely amazing damage on the Cavalier. :)
I'll adjust my book on its next update though as I think the weight of evidence says it should multiply... and yield some absolutely amazing damage on the Cavalier. :)
and the paladin,
and maybe ranger on favored enemy.Those guys also have a pretty darn big crit damage.
My understanding is that any damage gained from effects other than the dice and modifiers are added only once.
So for a weapon with a x2 critical...
(d# + Strength modifier) + (d# + Strength modifier) + (d# + Strength modifier) + Other Effects (Sneak Attack, Challenge bonus, Damage dice from enchantment effects, etc.)
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My understanding is that any damage gained from effects other than the dice and modifiers are added only once.
So for a weapon with a x2 critical...
(d# + Strength modifier) + (d# + Strength modifier) + (d# + Strength modifier) + Other Effects (Sneak Attack, Challenge bonus, Damage dice from enchantment effects, etc.)
Well, according to Core, page 184:
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
I know that the alpha version of the player's guide said "extra damage" but that wording is, at best, legacy. At worst it's misleading and cause for 3rd party publishers (apparently including Open Designs) to incorrectly quote some items as not multiplied by effect such as Spirited Charge and criticals.
Being that the rules state "multiply your damage" and then specific exceptions are not called out, it would be logical (even game-logical) to make the assertion that any damage not specifically excepted from being multiplied by critical and critical-like effects (such as the above exception, Vital Strike, the Bomb class feature of Alchemist, etc) would be so multiplied.
Also, I apologize for committing thread necromancy, but this came up in a game I play on Wednesdays.
And an Adult Red Dragon is CR 14. With 29 AC.
Attacking it: +6(BaB)+4(Str)+1(+1 weapon)-2((Power Attack)+1(Weapon Focus)=10
So you'd need to roll a 19 or 20, maybe 17 with Challenge to hit it. So while every Hit is a possible crit, the chance to land either is 20% or 1 in 5(IF it's in melee rang!), and at level 6 you only have two attacks at most with a nodachi.
You're not killing an adult dragon unless it's one of the really low CR dragons.