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except there are very few attacks that go against touch ac. A majority of attacks will be against regular ac which is why having a certain amount of regular ac is necessary for any melee combatant.
Aside from a huge number of spells.
So here is your example 15 point buy. By lvl 20 you will have 25 str. Before magical items, you will have an ac of 17(touch ac of 17 as well). I am not calling unfair. I am calling BS. This character will not live to lvl 20. He has low AC and a con mod of 0 meaning he is easy to hit and won't have many hit points to work with. There is no meaning to your dpr calculations because there is no actual character behind them. No such lvl 20 monk exists.
Go ahead, call it whatever you want. It seems like you still fail to understand the point of this DPR calculation. Hint: it's not "let's guarantee survival" :p BTW, this is another fairly generic anti-monk argument. You dismiss the touch ac, and over-emphasize base ac. And you know, before magical items, the fighter has a pretty terrible ac too. Higher level challenges expect certain levels of magical equipment, which includes ac. It makes no sense to try comparing the armor class of a derivation that intentionally only has a magical weapon.
And I'll repeat myself again. There is more than one derivation. Number 2 is specifically targeted at:
The second iteration will include magical weapons only
no... For NPCs with no racial hit dice and only class lvls, their CR is their class lvl -1. Summons do not change encounter CR(the pet eidolon). Which is why I said, calculating dpr vs a range of ACs is the "only" realistic way to go about it.
Again, you're missing the point. I never said that summons changed the ac of an encounter. What I said was that IF you raise the ac of a creature, you need to adjust the challenge rating to account for it.
Then, separate sentence here, I said that it was stupid to target a summoned creature and ignore the caster that summoned it.
Also in your current dpr calculation, these abilities are likely to be irrelevant since your wisdom score is so low. With a stunning fist or quivering palm fort save dc of 10+wis mod(1)+1/2 your monk lvl, you can expect by 20 to have a dc 21 fort save ability that will work rarely.
Interesting note here -- a monk that starts with a 20 wisdom, puts leveling stats into it, a +5 tome, and a +6 headband ends up with 36 wisdom. That's a +13 modifier. This 20th level monk has stunning fist attack with a dc of 10+10+13, or 33. The bestiary tells us that a cr 20 foe with a good save has a +22 on their save. So even a wisdom-focused monk only has a 50% chance of pulling it off. And each attempt is a standard action.
so brass knuckles(new material from APG) are ok but archetypes from the APG are not ok? In many ways, brass knuckles change how monks work far more than any of the fighter archetypes.
Pretty much. Feats like furious focus from the apg go a long way towards boosting a fighter's dpr. If you're curious as to the reason why -- it's because there are twelve fighter variants and ten monk variants, and when I started working on the spreadsheets, I didn't want to have to go through and calculate 22 different variations before I finally got two builds in that worked. There's only so many options one person can factor in at any given time, and time is a precious commodity. And, frankly, while the fighter option is pretty straight-forward, the monk options are much more difficult to try to *eyeball*. So, in the pursuit of equality, no archetypes.
So here is your example 15 point buy. By lvl 20 you will have 25 str. Before magical items, you will have an ac of 17(touch ac of 17 as well). I am not calling unfair. I am calling BS. This character will not live to lvl 20. He has low AC and a con mod of 0 meaning he is easy to hit and won't have many hit points to work with. There is no meaning to your dpr calculations because there is no actual character behind them. No such lvl 20 monk exists.I *could* take the monk with *this* array:
str 20
dex 13
con 11
int 7
wis 12
cha 7
and run the exact same damage. And, btw, that's a 15 point buy. Point buy doesn't matter that much.
The problem with requiring a build that can live to reach 20 is that you then have to say under what conditions. If I start a monk at level 1, and survive 20 levels of adventure with him, I'm going to have accumulated special items along the way that you can't just go and buy. I might even have an artifact depending on the campaign. How do you factor those in? Being able to survive to reach a given level is entirely irrelevant to a purely mechanical DPR calculation. Being able to survive at the point of comparison (by having a target AC, or some set amount of HP) is all that matters.
I have played in games before where we started at high level. I've built builds which don't work until you get your capstone ability. The fact my character would have been useless at lower levels doesn't change the fact that in the game he was in, he was effective. I had a friend make a 3.5 wizard once that had 16 hp at level 16. It worked well for that game, but I'd certainly not allow that in a DPR competition.
Asking about previous levels is irrelevant to a DPR comparison. As long as all the characters involved meet whatever requirements for the competition there are, at the point of the competition, it's fine. If there aren't AC requirements, then there will be different results than if there's an AC 30 requirement, and both will be different from an AC 50 requirement. All you can say with a DPR comparison is "With this set of requirements, these are the legal builds I used, and this is there results".
Oh, and if you can come up with a more optimized 2-handed weapon fighter or monk build that doesn't use archetypes, traits, or materials other than those contained in the CRB or the APG, I'd be happy to substitute it in.so brass knuckles(new material from APG) are ok but archetypes from the APG are not ok? In many ways, brass knuckles change how monks work far more than any of the fighter archetypes.
As long as the same rules are applied to all characters, and the rules are stated, it does't matter. I could set a requirement that all characters for a given comparison be built with 5 levels of sorcerer, and the comparison will take place inside a lightless cave filled by an anti-magic field. Silly? Yes. Valid requirements for seeing what class can do the most damage per round under that set of constraints? Yes. Is it a useful comparison? Not really.
Interesting note here -- a monk that starts with a 20 wisdom, puts leveling stats into it, a +5 tome, and a +6 headband ends up with 36 wisdom. That's a +13 modifier. This 20th level monk has stunning fist attack with a dc of 10+10+13, or 33. The bestiary tells us that a cr 20 foe with a good save has a +22 on their save. So even a wisdom-focused monk only has a 50% chance of pulling it off. And each attempt is a standard action.
Also in your current dpr calculation, these abilities are likely to be irrelevant since your wisdom score is so low. With a stunning fist or quivering palm fort save dc of 10+wis mod(1)+1/2 your monk lvl, you can expect by 20 to have a dc 21 fort save ability that will work rarely.
Stunning fist is done as part of a regular attack, not a standard action. So the monk can use it on each attack until they succeed (or run out of uses). Which is why calculating it is so hard - it starts looking like:
(hit_first_att * dam_first_att) +(hit_second_att * dam_second_att * chance_no_stun_after_first) +
(hit_second_att_vs_flatfooted * dam_second_att_vs_flatfooted * chance_stunned_after_first) +
(hit_third_att * dam_third_att * chance_no_stun_after_first * chance_no_stun_after_second) + ...
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Bleh, stunning fist not = standard action. Old style mental hiccup :p
Should I point out the ac of a 20 monk without gear compared to a 20 fighter without gear, and then complain about how the fighter would have never survived?
Probably not.
As for your example with the orcs, pretty much all characters will be in the same boat. First level characters are, well, squishy. Even a d12 with a 20 con is dropped by 17 points of damage. Orcs have a non-crit max of 12 damage, so *any* character is potentially killed by 2 of them. Every class except for those with heavy armor proficiency and the money to buy something decent to put there is in the same boat as the monk.
Drop a link when you throw up that monk dpr thread. I'll check it out :p
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Enlarge Person + Lead Blades + Ki Arrows = Totally legitimate. Enlarge person increases your damage, lead blades makes your fists deal damage AS THOUGH they were one size larger, and ki arrows substitutes your fist damage for bow damage.
Gravity bow does NOT work in conjunction because it increases arrow damage, but arrow damage isn't being used.
As a ranger can i cast lead blades on my animal companion to increase it's melee dmg? the spell doesn't specify manufactured weapons so i imagine i could but am not sure.
As a ranger can i cast lead blades on my animal companion to increase it's melee dmg? the spell doesn't specify manufactured weapons so i imagine i could but am not sure.
Technically, no. The Share Spells ability says "The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself". Lead blades has a range of personal and a target of touch (i.e. the weapons touched). Compare to a spell like Shield, which has a range of "personal" and a target of "You".
In addition, Lead Blades talks about weapons held, so while you might be able to argue that it doesn't specifically exclude natural weapons, it's clearly not intended for them.
The spell you're looking for instead is Strong Jaw, which is a more powerful spell in the first place.
Hmm... I can't help but feel as if problems would be solved if one had large arrows to fire from their enlarged bow when EP is used, simply stab the arrows into the ground before combat, EP, then pick them up and fire away.
Now, if I've understood things correctly, the premise was a Zen archer using EP, Gravity Bow, Lead Blades and then substituting the ranged damage die for her Unarmed damage die via Ki Arrows.
The first problem I find to be in the Lead Blades description
Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe.
with "just as they strike a foe" being the key part here. Since your fists never go anywhere near the enemy Lead Blades will not activate.
The second problem is that of the EP descriptor but, as I mentioned, this can be solved by simply having Large Arrows with you (Bag of Holding while in a large quiver, anyone?). The arrows are removed from your person prior to the casting of the EP and thus they are not affected by the spell, remaining at their Large size.
Since the descriptor of Gravity Bow reads
Gravity bow significantly increases the weight and density of arrows or bolts fired from your bow or crossbow the instant before they strike their target and then return them to normal a few moments later. Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is.
this would apply to any type of damage die from the arrow itself on account of the arrow still being Large after firing it, even when the normal damage die of the arrow itself has been replaced by that of the Monk's Unarmed Strike.
This would make the final calculation at any given Monk-level after 5th be that
EP increases UA damage die (retained through usage of large arrows) >>> Ki Arrows replaces Enlarged Bow damage die with UA damage die >>> GB activates just prior to arrow-impact, increasing damage by a die-step. Applying this to a 10th level Monk would give:
1d10 -> 2d8 -> 3d8 as the Large Arrows keep the increase from EP in effect while GB simply increases the step from what the arrow would have without GB.
I hope this solved the original question (assuming I didn't miss any solutions earlier).
On a possibly irrelevant note, there seems to be some (logical) implication that you can not fire projectiles inappropriately sized for your weapon unless it has been affected by various spells, just a thought.
Please FAQ the OPs post.
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If a medium PC carries large arrows and then is enlarged, could he then use gravity bow to give the equivalent of huge arrow damage?
No, because when he is enlarged, everything he is carrying is also enlarged so those large arrows would then become huge and still unusable. Now, if he dropped the arrows before being enlarged then it would probably work.
I have a greatsword, 2d6. Leadblades makes it 3d6. If I have time to cast enlarge, what would 3d6 go up to?
4d6
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Enlarge Person + Lead Blades + Ki Arrows = Totally legitimate. Enlarge person increases your damage, lead blades makes your fists deal damage AS THOUGH they were one size larger, and ki arrows substitutes your fist damage for bow damage.
Gravity bow does NOT work in conjunction because it increases arrow damage, but arrow damage isn't being used.
** spoiler omitted **
These do not work.
The only combination that works is Enlarge Person + Ki Arrows.Monk unarmed strike damage goes off of level progression and creature size only. A first level small halfling with weirdly oversized fists still only does 1d4, because that is the unarmed strike damage die for a small monk. If he's increased to medium, his unarmed strike damage die would increase appropriately, and that new damage amount would be reflected when he uses Ki Arrows. Gravity Bow doesn't stack because whatever damage it would deal is replaced by Ki Arrows, and Lead Blades doesn't stack because it doesn't change the monk's actual size, which is what determines his unarmed strike progression.