Golarion Kender racial descriptionBravo!
Even better than your demonstrating that the description of kender is that of kleptomaniac pathological liars (although Tourette Syndrome doesn't fit their description, they suffer more correctly from verbal impulsivity).
While I will grant to those defending kender that it is possible to play a kleptomaniac pathological liar with verbal impulsivity well and at the same time not disrupt the game, those who can are a true rarity and allowing such a race is just asking for trouble.
The trouble with allowing such a race is mostly that it attracts a certain type of player who confuses annoying with charming, prat with trickster, and juvenile with innocent. It's also a matter of the race mutating over time due to many contributors, all of them with slightly different interpretations.
If you check the Wikipedia article on Kender, you'll find that there were a number of things incorporated into the race for different reasons. The "handling" business was added in to create a race with thieving skills not gained by being raised by professional thieves. That said, being raised by a race of kleptomaniacs with no conception of personal property and no respect for the beliefs and taboos of other cultures does not seem to create something more moral or for that matter sympathetic.
The "taunting" was put in because it was a game mechanic the designers wanted from a wargaming perspect and it was up the fiction writers to justify and support, even though from a cultural standpoint it would really put the entire race on the short list for genocide. Mortally insulting someone to point where they lose all reason and concentrate on attacking you is fine for a short term fight, but stupid for any long term strategy. After killing the third kender who said horrible unconscionable things about his grandmother, your average ranger might decide...
I wholeheartedly agree with the first part(who is attracted to playing kender), and it's a point that I never saw before. I'm starting to see where you are coming from, and like I said, I have had bad experiences with people playing Kender before, and it's interesting to note that despite my love for them I've never played one. However, I think my biggest problem with your overall argument is that it metagames too much and assumes that just because you don't see Kender working out in your game or in real life or whatever, that they shouldn't work everywhere without your specific changes(or something similar) made.
Honestly, my Dragonlance experience is limited to the first trilogy (which I didn't care for, but then I dislike most D&D lit not written by Cunningham), the god awful modules based on the books, and the 2e write up. Oh, and 25 years of horribly annoying players thinking kender are cute...But, clearly, they are. I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on the Marak and Kendar(who ARE a race according to the kendercyclopedia!). I'm assuming you have not had a heart-warming experience with Kender that did not involve actually removing said Kender's heart and cooking it on a spit.They're a race of thieves and liars with a remarkable talent for verbal cruelty. Tell me again why they're not listed as CE?Because Hickman and Weis were smoking copious amounts of that new fad, crack, when they thought their halfling offshoot fantasy race was "lovable"?
I would also say that alot of people who have problems with Kender have their experiences with them limited to this.
I wholeheartedly agree with the first part(who is attracted to playing kender), and it's a point that I never saw before. I'm starting to see where you are coming from, and like I said, I have had bad experiences with people playing Kender before, and it's interesting to note that despite my love for them I've never played one. However, I think my biggest problem with your overall argument is that it metagames too much and assumes that just because you don't see Kender working out in your game or in real life or whatever, that they shouldn't work everywhere without your specific changes(or something similar) made.
Listen, anything can work out if well roleplayed. A sentient grapefruit can be an interesting character. A race of sentient grapefruits? A little less so.
As for metagaming, listen, GMs and authors both have to think about what fits in their world and what does not, and it's completely fair to say that any race that has "beloved by good races everywhere" and "if you don't like them you must be evil, close-minded, or both" as part of its background is going to change the makeup of a world a lot more than a race where the interaction with other races is listed as "some people like them, some don't, it varies."
The Kender are not unique in this, unfortunately. A lot of the later 3.5 D&D races--goliaths, the bald guys with glowing runes flying around their head, etc.--also had this "loved and accepted everywhere" crap, if to a somewhat lesser degree, and 4e even did the same thing with the tieflings after retconning them into the descendants of incompetent albeit chaste satanists rather than just what happens after a human and a fiend get it on.
But really, the problem with Kender is a metagame one: Their RAW racial character description spells out definitions of good and evil without letting GMs and PCs decide these for themselves. The kender "borrow" and "handle" and do all sorts of things without admitting that what they do is stealing, and then the kender racial write-up says that anyone who calls them a thief is evil, close-minded, unwise or all three. It also takes the concept of "innocence" and mangles it beyond recognition. You cannot innocently break into a bank vault. "Oh, I thought this was my hotel room. I forgot my key. What a fancy hotel--usually they have chocolate coins on the pillows. This one has whole sacks of chocolate coins! What do you mean these aren't chocolate? Oh, I'm sorry, it's an innocent mistake. Anyone could have made it."
Um, no. The kender can giggle and weep all they want, or mug for the judge like topknotted extras from Oliver!, but they still are thieves, plain and simple, as well as liars (and bad ones at that).
The whole business about it being innocent curiosity also doesn't hold water because the kender seem to always be picking pockets and pilfering packs but never seem to get around to rolling drunks and stripping them naked, even if this would be the logical next step of "innocent curiosity" run through this filter, especially if you see a bit of a tantalizing tattoo poking out of one sleeve and you're not going to be able to see any more if you don't take their clothes off, are you? And it's not like the kender hasn't touched naked flesh before, given the number of women who hide things down their bodices and the number of men who might have a hole in their pocket and a lack of underwear.
And then comes the question of what next the "innocent" kender might do to the unconscious naked drunk and whether any Lawful society could charge them with sexual assault and rape without having the kender saying that what they were doing was just more "handling" and "exploring" and having the metagame kender write-up saying that the lawful judge is unwise, close-minded, and/or evil to not pardon the little kender for their innocent curiosity.
I think an easy trait trade off would be Fearless and Keen Senses for Fear Immunity (per Voodoo Mike's Post). It wouldn't make much sense to have both Kender and Halfling fluff, so just do Kender. I just bumped the PF Race Building Post in Homebrew so check it out for more ideas.
I've had a Homebrew World that used Kender instead of halflings and it worked out pretty good. Good Luck.
Wouldn't a Kender who starts harvesting organs or sexually molesting someone lose their innocence immediately? I mean, Charles Manson wasn't quite human anymore when he was arrested. In a fantasy world a kender that cut someone open to see what they taste like is set to rise as a ghoul when they die.
Likely a kender would never even have such thoughts......
BBEG to kender
"Let's plug him and see if he's ripe"
Kender
"what"BBEG
"Didn't anyone ever tell you elves are edible?"Kender
"Never heard that before..."
BBEG
"if you stick him then pull out the knife it tastes amazing.....did you see where I put my knife?"Kender
Smite evil!
"I forgot to tell you I am a paladin prepare to be smited!"
Actually, the proper past participle of the verb is "smitten."
smite-smote-smitten
"Smite" is not a regular verb.
Beyond that, it sounds like your version of Kender is a terminator with software from the Parents Television Council, eternally keeping the kender's crimes against humanity strictly within a G-rating.
What does a kender do when he tries to take the magic wand from the wizard's pocket and he reaches in and realizes that not only does the pocket have a hole in it, but that's not a magic wand?
With the verb conjugation, yes, exactly.
The verb with "shat" as its past tense and past participle is an irregular verb that follows the same pattern as the non-censored verb "to sit."
sit-sat-sat
As for adult themes, all the excuses kender use to justify theft--curiosity mixed with no respect for other people's possessions--could just as easily and logically be used to justify rape as well. Curiosity + No Respect for Other People's Persons = ?
Saying "But no, that would be EEeViL!" is basically PTC editing software.
One assumes that kender have sex and children the regular way, and one also assumes that "the act" is never shown on stage in any of the official books, but kender are familiar with the process. One also assumes that there are some kender who are curious about sex, what it's like with elf girls, what it's like with dwarf guys.
Given that they cavalierly dismiss other culture's beliefs of the sanctity of personal possessions, why on earth would they have any scruples about violating the sanctity of other people's persons?
I think you're stretching just a little with that one Kevin.
Not so much.
Georgy-Porgy Puddin' Pie/Kissed the girls and made them cry.
Personal boundary issues are an old thing, and there are all sorts of statutes for sexual harassment, untoward advances, and everything up to and including rape.
If kender either cannot comprehend other races belief in personal property or worse can comprehend it but utterly disrespect it, and similarly cannot comprehend other races belief in secrecy/personal privacy or else can comprehend it but utterly disrespect it, it is a completely valid question whether kender can comprehend other races need to be secure in their persons against unwanted sexual advances or if they can comprehend it but disrespect this the same as they do personal property and keeping confidences.
It's never going to be answered in the RAW, because D&D never answers any questions about sex, but looking at the race's regard for property and privacy, it's hard not to draw conclusions. The response "But sweet little kender would never do anything like that!" draws the obvious rejoinder "Why not? They already do X and Y, so why not Z too?"
Hilariously:
Compare kender with adventure game protagonists.
[QOUTE] I would also say that alot of people who have problems with Kender have their experiences with them limited to this.
Honestly, my Dragonlance experience is limited to the first trilogy (which I didn't care for, but then I dislike most D&D lit not written by Cunningham), the god awful modules based on the books, and the 2e write up. Oh, and 25 years of horribly annoying players thinking kender are cute...
Well, yes. But that's the problem. The books were pretty bad (I read the first 2 trilogies and some of the stories, as mentioned before) and the modules did nothing to change that.
The books, if anything, seem to make the Kender even less likable. The more you meet, the more frustrating they become.
And the new rules and 25 years of players seem to encourage the bad behavior.
I'm sure there are a few people who have managed to play Kender without making them disruptively annoying. But I've never seen it. As a player or GM.
There's a good reason for the kender hate and its not just a "jump on the bandwagon" thing.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Likely a kender would never even have such thoughts......
*example snipped*
I think you've hit on one of the problems here (besides the absurdity of stealing the knife from his hand, and his belt and pants)
Suddenly, the 'impuslively curious, never steals, just handles' kender is going after specific items (not to mention items he can see, and already knows what they look like) and removing the threatening ones. If kender are truly 'curious' then he'd 'handle' the spell component pouch, or check his robe, not take the sharp pointy object.
To say "He never intentionally steals, well except when he intentionally steals" is an issue.
Like I said, friends don't steal from friends, Kender do.
No true Kender would...?
[QOUTE] I would also say that alot of people who have problems with Kender have their experiences with them limited to this.
Honestly, my Dragonlance experience is limited to the first trilogy (which I didn't care for, but then I dislike most D&D lit not written by Cunningham), the god awful modules based on the books, and the 2e write up. Oh, and 25 years of horribly annoying players thinking kender are cute...
Well, yes. But that's the problem. The books were pretty bad (I read the first 2 trilogies and some of the stories, as mentioned before) and the modules did nothing to change that.
The books, if anything, seem to make the Kender even less likable. The more you meet, the more frustrating they become.
And the new rules and 25 years of players seem to encourage the bad behavior.
I'm sure there are a few people who have managed to play Kender without making them disruptively annoying. But I've never seen it. As a player or GM.
There's a good reason for the kender hate and its not just a "jump on the bandwagon" thing.
Just because there is a good reason doesn't mean it's okay to go to extremes about it, which is where I think the bandwagon comes in. So far in this thread we've seen Kender handling- while wrong from most cultures point of view, and punished to a variety of degrees- extrapolated include everything from supervillanous safe-cracking/vault emptying to rape. If the path to hell is paved with good intentions, then the path to genocide(which has also been brought up in this thread, perhaps tongue in cheek) is paved with good reasons. I'm not saying that everyone must have Kender in their game, nor am I saying that those who had bad experiences didn't have them. I AM saying that people are going overboard with the kender hate with really thin reasons to back them up.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Freehold,
Actually safe cracking isn't that big of a leap.
If kender die every year (not enough, certainly :P) from exploring ruins, asking dragons annoying questions, etc. and if they can't tell the difference between 'stealing from friends' and 'being curious' then why wouldn't a kender break into a bank vault to see 'what's in there?'
"Oooh, they locked the crown jewels in there? Well I've never seen the crown jewels, let's go!"
Indeed, a kender doesn't (as written) understand the difference between a gem laying on a pillow in a ruin that hasn't been visited in 1000 years, a gem laying on a funeral bier in a tomb, or a gem laying in a safety deposit box. None of them are being 'used' currently, so they're fair game.
Freehold,
Actually safe cracking isn't that big of a leap.
If kender die every year (not enough, certainly :P) from exploring ruins, asking dragons annoying questions, etc. and if they can't tell the difference between 'stealing from friends' and 'being curious' then why wouldn't a kender break into a bank vault to see 'what's in there?'
"Oooh, they locked the crown jewels in there? Well I've never seen the crown jewels, let's go!"
Indeed, a kender doesn't (as written) understand the difference between a gem laying on a pillow in a ruin that hasn't been visited in 1000 years, a gem laying on a funeral bier in a tomb, or a gem laying in a safety deposit box. None of them are being 'used' currently, so they're fair game.
Except that the average kender wouldn't have an attention span long enough to actually get into a safe deposit box. I've worked at one of the odler banks in Brooklyn, and the safety deposit boxes there were in the bowels of the building, and not easily accessed. I can be childlike myself, but I had no desire to pull safety deposit box duty, it was postively labrynthine. The safes(and perhaps this is where my modern bias is coming in), weren't going to be cracked by any kender I've ever met. I think people who have problems with Kender give them too much credit when they aren't giving them enough and make them into something other than what they actually are. They're annoying kleptos, not John Dillinger.
Except that the average kender wouldn't have an attention span long enough to actually get into a safe deposit box. I've worked at one of the odler banks in Brooklyn, and the safety deposit boxes there were in the bowels of the building, and not easily accessed. I can be childlike myself, but I had no desire to pull safety deposit box duty, it was postively labrynthine.
You're not a kender.
The safes(and perhaps this is where my modern bias is coming in), weren't going to be cracked by any kender I've ever met.
You've never met any kender.
I think people who have problems with Kender give them too much credit when they aren't giving them enough and make them into something other than what they actually are. They're annoying kleptos, not John Dillinger.
I AM saying that people are going overboard with the kender hate with really thin reasons to back them up.
I think people going overboard with the kender defense have really thin reasons to back them up.
Look, if the kender have this nearly supernatural ability to kipe things from everyone without them knowing about it (is there a rule giving the victims of kender theft a chance to catch the kender in mid-theft?), I seriously doubt that a locked safe is going to present much of an obstacle.
Except that the average kender wouldn't have an attention span long enough to actually get into a safe deposit box. I've worked at one of the odler banks in Brooklyn, and the safety deposit boxes there were in the bowels of the building, and not easily accessed. I can be childlike myself, but I had no desire to pull safety deposit box duty, it was postively labrynthine.You're not a kender.
The safes(and perhaps this is where my modern bias is coming in), weren't going to be cracked by any kender I've ever met.You've never met any kender.
I think people who have problems with Kender give them too much credit when they aren't giving them enough and make them into something other than what they actually are. They're annoying kleptos, not John Dillinger.I AM saying that people are going overboard with the kender hate with really thin reasons to back them up.I think people going overboard with the kender defense have really thin reasons to back them up.
Look, if the kender have this nearly supernatural ability to kipe things from everyone without them knowing about it (is there a rule giving the victims of kender theft a chance to catch the kender in mid-theft?), I seriously doubt that a locked safe is going to present much of an obstacle.
Good point on the first two- I realized that I made it sound like I knew kender or once was a kender about 10 minutes after I made the post.
I think, regarding the last part, that that would be making Kender into something other than what they are. At least in the GAMES I HAVE SEEN AND THE BOOKS I HAVE READ(I don't actually KNOW any Kender...), they've been pickpockets, not safecrackers, although I could be wrong. I think there was some mention made of a kender safecracker of some time in one of the more recent novel/las.
Also, don't kender go into labyrinthine dungeons guarded by watchful sentries all the time? How is that any different than a bank's safe deposit box dungeon?
Keep in mind this is was an old bank- they were doing work on it when I first started working there, and it no longer looks the way it did, but for those first few months it was...a bit scary. I'd have to actually to go back in time and show it to you, I don't think I can quite describe what it looked like.
Also, who the hell stands outside of a dungeon? I could see a castle or point of interest, but a dungeon is just a hole in the ground.
Do some random wilderness adventuring, find the ruins of a town, find the bank, and maybe there's still something in the safe.
From the Kender racial description: "All dark caves need exploring, all locked doors need opening, and all chests hide something interesting."
A bank vault is most emphatically a locked door and the safe deposit boxes beyond that are most emphatically even more locked chests, some of which are almost guaranteed to hold "something interesting."
If a Kender would think nothing of picking the lock of my hotel room and going through my suitcase, why on earth wouldn't he break into a bank vault, especially after he learns that's where all the really cool stuff is kept?
Also, unless a Kender has magical G-rated plot foreknowledge beamed in by the Parent's Television Council, he has no way of knowing whether the mysterious patch of worked earth has a pirate's treasure chest at the bottom or is an unmarked grave. Once he digs it up and opens the coffin--and we'll say this one is a coffin, but it's one of the straight-sided ones which could also be used as a supply chest--he finds the corpse of a female about three feet tall with silver coins over her eyes and a fancy doll in her bony hands. Does he have enough CSI Greyhawk to tell the difference between the corpse of Polly Sue, human pioneer child, age six, and Bramble-Anne Birneyburr, the halfling pirate queen? Does it matter? Wouldn't he take the coins and the doll regardless, and if he wouldn't, prepare to give an explanation why beyond "But Kender are sweet and innocent and would never do anything like that!"
Do Kender have miraculous foreknowledge of human and/or halfling funerary rites and practices and what constitutes a desecration of either? Moreover, even if they somehow do, do they equally miraculously suddenly give a damn about human/halfling notions of personal property and appropriate behavior?
If a Kender would think nothing about slipping an intriguing doll out of the hands of a sleeping child so he can better "handle" it, why on earth would he suddenly have any compunctions about taking a doll out of the hands of a dead child--or a dead halfling woman? And if a Kender finds something intriguing in a grave from fifty years ago, couldn't something equally interesting be found in a grave from five days ago?
What exactly stops a Kender from going from the local cemetery and digging up the most recent grave, as that's the one least likely to have been robbed yet? Yes, the Kender insists what he's doing isn't robbery, just "handling" and satisfying his curiosity, but he still is likely to know that a robbed grave has less interesting stuff left than an unrobbed one.
For that matter, what stops a Kender from wandering up to a funeral already in process and pulling the rings off the fingers of the corpse? They're pretty rings, they intrigue his curiosity, it's not like the corpse is using them anymore, and if he'd think nothing of slipping the ring off the finger of a sleeping wizard who's a friend of his, why would he suddenly care about some dead wizard lying there in the middle of some boring ceremony? It makes him even less likely to wake up. Why are all the crying people suddenly screaming at him and calling him a graverobbing ghoul? The body's not even in the grave yet!
The "But Kender would never do anything like that!" crew need to come up with an explanation for exactly why Kender would never doing anything like that.
Saying it's because they're "innocent" won't fly. A toddler could wander into a cemetery, pee on a tombstone, then pick up a deathwatch beetle and stick it in his mouth. That's innocence. For an adult to do the same thing, he'd have to be mad, drunk, or going out of his way to violate the social order and cultural taboos, if not all three.
Kender? Unless their "innocence" is being piloted by metagame knowledge of what's grotesque and scandalous and what's merely annoying, there's no reason they shouldn't routinely desecrate the dead. And if that "innocence" is piloted by metagame knowledge, then it's not really innocence at all.
From the Kender racial description: "All dark caves need exploring, all locked doors need opening, and all chests hide something interesting."
A bank vault is most emphatically a locked door and the safe deposit boxes beyond that are most emphatically even more locked chests, some of which are almost guaranteed to hold "something interesting."
If a Kender would think nothing of picking the lock of my hotel room and going through my suitcase, why on earth wouldn't he break into a bank vault, especially after he learns that's where all the really cool stuff is kept?
Also, unless a Kender has magical G-rated plot foreknowledge beamed in by the Parent's Television Council, he has no way of knowing whether the mysterious patch of worked earth has a pirate's treasure chest at the bottom or is an unmarked grave. Once he digs it up and opens the coffin--and we'll say this one is a coffin, but it's one of the straight-sided ones which could also be used as a supply chest--he finds the corpse of a female about three feet tall with silver coins over her eyes and a fancy doll in her bony hands. Does he have enough CSI Greyhawk to tell the difference between the corpse of Polly Sue, human pioneer child, age six, and Bramble-Anne Birneyburr, the halfling pirate queen? Does it matter? Wouldn't he take the coins and the doll regardless, and if he wouldn't, prepare to give an explanation why beyond "But Kender are sweet and innocent and would never do anything like that!"
Do Kender have miraculous foreknowledge of human and/or halfling funerary rites and practices and what constitutes a desecration of either? Moreover, even if they somehow do, do they equally miraculously suddenly give a damn about human/halfling notions of personal property and appropriate behavior?
If a Kender would think nothing about slipping an intriguing doll out of the hands of a sleeping child so he can better "handle" it, why on earth would he suddenly have any compunctions about taking a doll out of the hands of a dead child--or a...
Although I realize we're never going to see eye to eye on this, I think there's a chance that kender are being affected by power/description creep here. By a lot of the logic you're putting forth and that you are pulling from a few reputable sources but also putting in situations tinged by your anti-Kender bias, Kender should have already taken over the world in a fashion similar to immortal-until-killed elves. Entire towns should have been picked over with magical weapons and items being the first to go. Kender who were of a mind to use them would have done so by now, perhaps destroying the world in the process. Again, I think you are giving them too much credit and too little credit at the wrong times.
From the Kender racial description: "All dark caves need exploring, all locked doors need opening, and all chests hide something interesting."
A bank vault is most emphatically a locked door and the safe deposit boxes beyond that are most emphatically even more locked chests, some of which are almost guaranteed to hold "something interesting."
If a Kender would think nothing of picking the lock of my hotel room and going through my suitcase, why on earth wouldn't he break into a bank vault, especially after he learns that's where all the really cool stuff is kept?
.
Once again, the author of that ill conceived text is not holding a gun to your head, or even giving you an XP bonus if your Kender robs banks. Play the role, don't let the role play you. If robbing banks destroys the module, don't.
Once again, the author of that ill conceived text is not holding a gun to your head, or even giving you an XP bonus if your Kender robs banks. Play the role, don't let the role play you. If robbing banks destroys the module, don't.From the Kender racial description: "All dark caves need exploring, all locked doors need opening, and all chests hide something interesting."
A bank vault is most emphatically a locked door and the safe deposit boxes beyond that are most emphatically even more locked chests, some of which are almost guaranteed to hold "something interesting."
If a Kender would think nothing of picking the lock of my hotel room and going through my suitcase, why on earth wouldn't he break into a bank vault, especially after he learns that's where all the really cool stuff is kept?
.
That's called metagaming. It doesn't say "some kender sometimes like to do this" it says "kender DO this". If you ease up on the reigns of your character and not play a kender at the right moments, as to not destroy the module/party/DM, then you are metagaming, with however good intentions. If I was playing a gruff and tact dwarf, but as soon as we met royalty or some other situation where saying the wrong thing might get you killed he suddenly is pleasant and navigates a social situation with the aplomb of a courtier, well, that's metagaming too.
My argument is not that that one line of text is ill conceived, but that all of it is ill conceived, and it's easier to redline Kender entirely than to go through the racial description and redline every bit that's stupid because once you're done with that, there's not much left. Moreover, if you redline any of it, you have player complaining that you're not allowing them to play the race as it's written.
The main trouble with the race as it's written, as I've been trying to point out, is that it's designed to only operate in a G-rated universe. If a kender "handles" something, it's either something easily replaceable or if not easily replaced, the gods of bad plotting come down from the machine and arrange things so that nothing terribly bad ends up happening--grandma's engagement ring is returned in time for the lovestruck young man's proposal, the key to the Vault of Ookiness is returned in time to lock the Unspeakable Creepy Thing up for another thousand years, the wizard who's suddenly missing his spell component pouch in the middle of the epic battle is rescued and given the spell component pouch of one of the BBEG's henchmen who fortunately went to the same academy or shops at the same magic shoppe because it's sorted and ordered exactly like the wizard's old one.
If the GM instead makes it such that disaster or tragedy ensues because the family heirloom, legendary McGuffin, or crucial tool is missing because the kender is "handling" it, the complaint will be that the GM is picking on the Kender because he failed to stuff the NPC's pockets with kewl grot for the Kender to "handle" without affecting the plot.
This is lunacy. In reality, and even in fiction wishing to have some degree of verisimilitude, people do not stuff their pockets with endless wads of shiny tinsel and useless trinkets. On any given day, if you picked my pocket, you would get my wallet, my cell phone, my keys, and maybe my iPod. The loss of any of these would not only ruin my week but set me back a fair chunk of money. Yes, you might also find a penny, a pen, or shopping list, and the loss of these wouldn't much put me out, but you're coming down to a coin flip of whether the thief ruins my day.
In a fantasy world? Your ID is your seal ring. Losing it means not only losing your ID but that people can use it to forge your seal, which is a really unpleasant prospect. There might even be extra sentimental value attached, as this is possibly a family heirloom or something your parents had made for you when you were setting out in the world. Money was coins instead of bills so there would be a money pouch. Keys would also be of use in the middle ages. Personal memorandum books would take the place of cell phones. The iPod would instead be a wand or other minor magic item--pretty but pricy and as much a status symbol as anything else, but still something someone would feel the loss of. Finally, a copper piece, a stylus, and a scrap of parchment written with a shopping list. Roll a d8 to see if the pickpocket ruins someone's week.
I really can't see anyone except the insane having the warm fuzzies about Kender after being on the receiving end of their "handling" and not getting your crucial stuff back.
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That's called metagaming. It doesn't say "some kender sometimes like to do this" it says "kender DO this". If you ease up on the reigns of your character and not play a kender at the right moments, as to not destroy the module/party/DM, then you are metagaming, with however good intentions.
From the PRD, re: Dwarves:
They find halflings, elves, and gnomes to be too frail, flighty, or “pretty” to be worthy of proper respect.
If you've ever played a dwarf that had any degree of respect for a halfling, an elf, or a gnome, you are metagaming.
re: Gnomes
Male gnomes have a strange fondness for unusual hats and headgear, while females often proudly wear elaborate and eccentric hairstyles.
If your male gnome isn't wearing a strange hat, you're metagaming.
re: Half-Elves
Half-elves stand taller than humans but shorter than elves
If your half-elf is taller than an elf or shorter than a human, you are metagaming.
My point, in case you haven't figured it out yet, is that the racial writeup of the different races is meant as a guideline, it's not a carved in stone set of rules that completely bind every single member of that race.
purposely misinterpreting what I said
I'm saying that if you play a kender who is curious, but are obstinately not curious when it might hurt the party, THAT is metagaming. My response was to the idea that a kender has some sort of magical plot foreknowledge of what is and isn't acceptable, not only to the players and NPCs but the plot of the module/campaign, to pilfer and will derail the entire game. A kender who suspiciously doesn't pick the pockets of that dazzlingly dressed maiden (the princess) is metagaming, whereas any character that does so is likely to be arrested if not hanged. Which leaves most kender, in MOST campaigns, liable to have their attitudes handwaived or be punitively dismembered in some way.
If you don't understand what metagaming is, I'll be happy to patiently explain it to you, though even simply in context you should understand that your post was patently absurd.
purposely misinterpreting what I saidI'm saying that if you play a kender who is curious, but are obstinately not curious when it might hurt the party, THAT is metagaming. My response was to the idea that a kender has some sort of magical plot foreknowledge of what is and isn't acceptable, not only to the players and NPCs but the plot of the module/campaign, to pilfer and will derail the entire game. A kender who suspiciously doesn't pick the pockets of that dazzlingly dressed maiden (the princess) is metagaming, whereas any character that does so is likely to be arrested if not hanged. Which leaves most kender, in MOST campaigns, liable to have their attitudes handwaived or be punitively dismembered in some way.
If you don't understand what metagaming is, I'll be happy to patiently explain it to you, though even simply in context you should understand that your post was patently absurd.
Actually, I have to agree with kthulhu here. It can't be metagaming when you want it to be and not metagaming when you don't(or vice versa).
You failed to read meatrace's point: If you create a Kender with insatiable curiosity and then turn that character trait on and off based on metagame knowledge, you're metagaming, by definition.
Creating an atypical character for any given race is fine. You can have a dwarven diplomat if you want, who favors gnomish fashion in hats and has an elven girlfriend. The other dwarves likely think he's nuts but the King of the Dwarves may realize this guy makes a great ambassador to some cosmopolitan city, especially as he feels distinctly uncomfortable when dressed in traditional dwarven regalia for court functions at home.
If, however, you have the stereotypical dour taciturn dwarf who calls gnomes "insane haberdashers" and elves "willowy flibbertigibbets" and he suddenly starts acting like a courtier because the player has sussed out it's an "act courteous or die" plot, yeah, that player is metagaming too.
So at what point does the Kender say, "Why is everyone saying the princess is the prettiest one here? She's not. She's got the sparkliest dress, but honestly, she's not even average for all the girls here. The two prettiest ones are that countess over there and the third lady in waiting. Heck, even the baron there is prettier than the princess and is working his sparklies better."
So at what point does the Kender say, "Why is everyone saying the princess is the prettiest one here? She's not. She's got the sparkliest dress, but honestly, she's not even average for all the girls here. The two prettiest ones are that countess over there and the third lady in waiting. Heck, even the Baron there is prettier than the princess and is working his sparklies better."
I'm guessing none, unless the Kender is about to enter combat with her.
All amusing, but it also points out that there's another trouble with Kenders being the clueless innocents who could innocently say such remarks, pointing out that the emperor has no clothes, etc. while also being the sharp-tongued wits to can demoralize foes with barbed insights.
There's a discrepancy here.
That's called metagaming. It doesn't say "some kender sometimes like to do this" it says "kender DO this". If you ease up on the reigns of your character and not play a kender at the right moments, as to not destroy the module/party/DM, then you are metagaming, with however good intentions. If I was playing a gruff and tact dwarf, but as soon as we met royalty or some other situation where saying the wrong thing might get you killed he suddenly is pleasant and navigates a social situation with the aplomb of a courtier, well, that's metagaming too.Once again, the author of that ill conceived text is not holding a gun to your head, or even giving you an XP bonus if your Kender robs banks. Play the role, don't let the role play you. If robbing banks destroys the module, don't.From the Kender racial description: "All dark caves need exploring, all locked doors need opening, and all chests hide something interesting."
A bank vault is most emphatically a locked door and the safe deposit boxes beyond that are most emphatically even more locked chests, some of which are almost guaranteed to hold "something interesting."
If a Kender would think nothing of picking the lock of my hotel room and going through my suitcase, why on earth wouldn't he break into a bank vault, especially after he learns that's where all the really cool stuff is kept?
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If it says Kender do this, then it's not available as a PC race. Kenders rob banks is not a personality trait, its a computer program.
They didn't have computers, they had golems.If a Kender automatically tries to rob all banks it may be a fleash golem. Check for stitching. You brought the hate. Tell me I'm metagaming and I say NO MY MOTHER IS NOT!
You POed me. If someone tells me there is a kender in the party and they can't METAGAME as you say, I'm walking away from the table. I once did it at a convention because the DM said the party is going into a country ruled by a demon. My dwarf cleric was supposed to attempt a disguise check he couldn't make so I walked away.
Ahhh the cry for realism .....
So the problem with kender is realism/consistency/sociological/psychological?
;)
In a nutshell: Yes.
I can believe in short stocky dour bankers, miners and smiths living deep in the earth. I somewhat question their passion for beer, but assume they either trade for grain and hops from surface dwellers, or they've figured out how to make beer out of mushrooms.
I can believe in forest dwelling lanky people with pointed ears, long lifespans, low birth rates, and a mix of 1970s earth mother philosophy mixed with Edwardian fashion sense. I sort of wonder where they get all the trailing silk garments, but I assume they have sericulture and are very secretive about it like the Chinese used to be so everyone assumes their fabulous silks are produced by secret nature magic, rather than being squirted out of a caterpillar's butt after it munches mulberry leaves.
I can believe shire-dwelling pygmies with hairy feet who look, dress, and act like romanticized 19th century Irishmen with a passion for drinking, eating, music, pipes and potatoes when they're not making a living through standard agriculture. That requires so little suspension of disbelief that it's almost a no-brainer.
That all said, while four-foot-tall people with topknots, a tendency to wrinkle early, slightly pointed ears, big eyes, and taste for gaudy clothes with lots of pockets all cause no problems--in fact, it sounds a bit like southeast Asia--the business of them all being pathological liars and kleptomaniacs with ADHD? I'm sorry, no. Cloth doesn't spin/weave itself, leather doesn't tan itself either, and a race that acts like that wouldn't be competent to make their own clothes, nor would they have anything to trade for clothing since they apparently have no useful skills.
And instead of despising them for their lying thieving ways and their irresponsibility, all the other races are supposed to love them? What? Is this code for the Kender working as prostitutes, peddling their flesh across the world, with the Kender ritual greeting being "Me love you long time!"?
When you look at a race and try to divine their useful skills for trade and your only answer is "Um...maybe they turn tricks?" I think its time to go back to the drawing board.
If it says Kender do this, then it's not available as a PC race. Kenders rob banks is not a personality trait, its a computer program.
You hit the nail on the head there. That's my precise problem. I have played this game for 13 years or so, my first DM loved Kender and I played in dragonlance almost exclusively for the first 5 years of my gaming career.I saw dozens of Kender played by a handful of players in that time, and another handful of Kender in various campaigns and one-shots after that by a variety of players who had never met one another. Every Kender I have "met" had virtually identical personalities, and at least 1-3 times per session the game has to take a time out to talk like a child to the kender to convince him/her to stop stealing from the party. Handling, my bad. Either way it is 100% disruptive 100% of the time. Never EVER once has a kender being a functionally retarded klepto with ADD and the fashion sense of ugly betty on acid been a BOON to an adventure, a party, or a campaign world.