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Working on two builds that I am planning to run in a friend's campaign. The characters are already fairly laid out, story wise. However, I'd like to give them a certain bit of flair.
Since the APG came out, I've been enthralled with the arcane duelist archetype of bard. Going with the them I'm trying not to overly gish, but still have an increase to my melee capabilities.
I'm caught between having taking two levels of Duelist or four levels of Dragon Disciple. If I went with Duelist it's primarily for picking up parry and precise strike. Dragon Disciple is more about the ability increases and extra options.
I'm not sure which is the more combat favorable option, though I think the Duelist fits more thematically. That an the bonus feats given to the AD open up some very nice feat combos that fit in the character theme. The DD doesn't seem to be something to shrug off so easily. I see the potential with both options. Thus, my on the fence staus.
Advice, comments, other options?
In general, the AD bard is such a nice set-up of abilities that it can go several different ways and be exquisitely useful and effective, so we really can't say one build is superior to another without some sort of character concept decision.
That being said, the AD bard gets heavy armor proficiency, and can cast spells out of heavy armor, and gets weapon bond. The Duelist loses some really nice abilities if you wear medium + armor, or have an object in your other hand. So what you have is the duelist restricting some of the better abilities that the AD bard grants. You may want to take that into consideration.
In addition, the Duelist requires intelligence to really benefit from one of its abilities. The AD Bard requires 3 attributes to be "safe": Charisma, Strength (Dexterity), and Constitution. Int and Wis tend to be the dump stats for those character types, especially since bards rock so many skill points per level anyway. So, you will be taking one dump stat and turning it into a secondary stat, that takes points away from your primary stats.
If you want to go with a Smasher, the AD16/DD4 is most likely the best way to go. At level 20, you trade 1 caster level for +2 to hit and +2 to damage (+3 if 2h weapon smasher), you also get some other really nice goodies that will help you in melee.
If you don't want a Smasher, then taking levels in Dragon Disciple becomes less and less of a good idea. It can be marginally rationalized for the Bow AD as you can get a better composite bow, however with that build your concentration is more on Dexterity, so the DD class becomes a bit less optimized for you, but perhaps still better than just straight AD Bard. <This is my personal opinion as iI feel the last four levels of AD Bard are not as good as the first 16.>
Personally, I would stick with Arcane Duelist. You may decide that a late-game level dip would benefit you, but AD is very strong on it's own, and the +1 HP favored class bonus will be significant for a d8 melee character.
I would have to agree with Doc ... AD16/DD4 is the way to go. However, I also really like FTR 4/AD 16 or Swashbuckler 4/AD 16. Both of these options really enhance your melee capabilities without totally crippling your spellcasting. All that one would have to do is take Practiced Spellcaster to mitigate your lost spell casting levels.
If one were to dip into Fighter for 4 levels as you suggest, the Weapon Master archetype might be a good idea, since the AD is likely to always be using his bonded weapon to hit (and the bonuses to protect said weapon would be very nice to have).
I also agree with Blueluck, however, that the AD is plenty awesome without multiclassing.
I think all the ideas are good, so what it boils down to is the concept. For example, Dragon Disciple is heavily flavorful---does burning with the blood of dragons fit well with this arcane duelist idea? Then go for it. If not, then do something else.
+1 to Doc Cosmic's analysis.
By the time you get to AD 16 you'll be able to figure out what you want to do for the last 4 levels, and it won't make a terribly huge difference in your character (unless you do go Duelist, which I think is not a very good idea). Stick with casting, consolidate your stats.
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First off, thanks so much for the advice thus far.
I did not think about the armor's affecting duelist. I was more fixated on the parry ability. My use of interupting feats and abilities was what was inspiring the need for parry. Missile Shield and Ray Shield, and then complementing them with parry. To have access to all three, and stay in the fencer archetype, was going to have my character utilizing a ring of forceshield.
Penetrating Strike coupled with Arcane Strike, Precise Striking, and Inspire Courage or Bladethirst just seemed like a solid combo to me. And the defenseive abilities allowed for the hounding of casters despite their protections.
My feat plans should I go DD would focus more on sundering, power attacking, critical focus, and lunge. Or going the whole whirlwind attack route. Which I know if I'm going that route, I should just play fighter or barbarian, but Bard spells and songs give some great bonuses to the party. This archetype gives some great bonuses to Bard, but we already have several topics on that.
I reallise I'm sounding a little gish, but the combat tricks afforded to this variat are appealing without me having a character that steps on the toes of the main caster or bruiser. Flashy, but effective support is how I'm sort of going, as AD can easily fill the party's need for an anti caster.
Even though I am asking for some slight optimization assistance, my flavor is to keep with the magical fencer and I'd like to keep that theme.
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I forgot to mention in my OP, that this is a Paizo Material Only Campaign. Otherwise I would have cited Shield Parry, and likely the parry and reposite feats from Dragon Magazine.
As the Duelist class has seemed to absorbed that whole family of feats, and is thus my only access to parry in pathfinder. At least the only access I know of.
Though I do like your idea as well Deathquaker. It did inspire me to toy with the idea of 4 levels of shadowdancer. The hitch is I'd give up more spells and spell levels than I'd like. Flavor and ability speaking, it does have its merits.
How does your character feel about gang up? That's a nice feat to help against something you can attack but not get around.
As far as class choices -- I don't mind duelist for a few levels to get to parry -- but I like dragon disciple 5 more than dragon disciple 4 -- it's that blindsense -- a wonderful ability for a duelist to have and one that works really well with blind fighting/improved/greater blind fighting.
As far as dips go if you are considering fighter I'm going to suggest considering cavalier -- maybe two levels -- one to get tactics (a nice ability for a guy that's doing maneuvers and if you take the levels later you could get outflank to share with your allies) and the second to get into the order of the dragon ability. I realize you are probably feat starved but I find that combat reflexes into bodyguard means you can give any adjacent ally a +3 circumstance bonus to their AC at the cost of an AoO -- a trade I'm generally willing to make (especially since this is a "non-action" as far as your buffing/music/attacking is concerned).
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How does your character feel about gang up? That's a nice feat to help against something you can attack but not get around.
As far as class choices -- I don't mind duelist for a few levels to get to parry -- but I like dragon disciple 5 more than dragon disciple 4 -- it's that blindsense -- a wonderful ability for a duelist to have and one that works really well with blind fighting/improved/greater blind fighting.
As far as dips go if you are considering fighter I'm going to suggest considering cavalier -- maybe two levels -- one to get tactics (a nice ability for a guy that's doing maneuvers and if you take the levels later you could get outflank to share with your allies) and the second to get into the order of the dragon ability. I realize you are probably feat starved but I find that combat reflexes into bodyguard means you can give any adjacent ally a +3 circumstance bonus to their AC at the cost of an AoO -- a trade I'm generally willing to make (especially since this is a "non-action" as far as your buffing/music/attacking is concerned).
Cavalier sounds like a pretty good bet actually. the Charisma synergy would save some trouble, as does the tactics. My question though is challenge, which order would be best to go with? I am quite the team player and usually my characters are as well, so which would aid the best?
I am not sure though on the 5th level of DD, blindsense and the blindfighting is a great ability, but Penetrating Strike solves a lot of DR issues.
If you have your heart set on Duelist, and don't mind switching up from a bard, you could always go with a wizard for spells...
Elf Fighter/Wizard/Duelist/Eldritch Knight
Fighter for the Weapon Master in Scimitar, it will allow you the extra feats needed for Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance, granting you the ability to use your dexterity for attack and damage with your scimitar which....
Wizard allows you to arcane bond, which you can put on your scimitar. Wizard also grants access to a better spell list, allowing you (with some combinations) 7th level spells. Wizard also has a good Int requirement which...
Duelist grants one point of AC per point of Int...allowing you to "make up" lost AC from not wearing armor [the Int bonus adds to your dex bonus to AC, which is limited by armor, so you really don't want to wear armor as a duelist] If you have Bracers of Armor 8 and an Int bonus to AC of 5...that is equivalent to an armor bonus of 13...which is full plate +4...not bad for only bracers...but they are expensive. Dervish Dance also allows you to treat the scimitar as a piercing weapon, very handy since that allows you to activate your other duelist abilities. A good dip into duelist is 5 levels, but flavor to taste.
Eldritch Knight finishes off the building, allowing you full BAB and 9/10 caster level progression, not a bad way to finish off the character, as it allows you to pull more fighter feats such as weapon specialization and the like.
Again, this is a side suggestion that could also accomplish what I think you are looking for, which is a duelist that casts spells.
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If you have your heart set on Duelist, and don't mind switching up from a bard, you could always go with a wizard for spells...
Elf Fighter/Wizard/Duelist/Eldritch Knight
Fighter for the Weapon Master in Scimitar, it will allow you the extra feats needed for Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance, granting you the ability to use your dexterity for attack and damage with your scimitar which....
Wizard allows you to arcane bond, which you can put on your scimitar. Wizard also grants access to a better spell list, allowing you (with some combinations) 7th level spells. Wizard also has a good Int requirement which...
Duelist grants one point of AC per point of Int...allowing you to "make up" lost AC from not wearing armor [the Int bonus adds to your dex bonus to AC, which is limited by armor, so you really don't want to wear armor as a duelist] If you have Bracers of Armor 8 and an Int bonus to AC of 5...that is equivalent to an armor bonus of 13...which is full plate +4...not bad for only bracers...but they are expensive. Dervish Dance also allows you to treat the scimitar as a piercing weapon, very handy since that allows you to activate your other duelist abilities. A good dip into duelist is 5 levels, but flavor to taste.
Eldritch Knight finishes off the building, allowing you full BAB and 9/10 caster level progression, not a bad way to finish off the character, as it allows you to pull more fighter feats such as weapon specialization and the like.
Again, this is a side suggestion that could also accomplish what I think you are looking for, which is a duelist that casts spells.
I like how you think Doc. However, that is a build very similar to the build I made prior to the APG.
Wizard (Transmutationist) 5, Ranger 5 (I wanted access to divine spells & more skill points), Eldrict Knight 10.
Combat Feats were TWF, Weapon Finese, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Focus (Touch Spell), Combat Expertise, Disarm, and Improved Feint
Magic Related Feats included Scribe Scroll, Extend Spell, Still Spell, and Craft Magic Arms & Armor
My other feats were Improved Initiative, Quickdraw, Arcane Strike, Combat Casting.
I took Humans as my Favored Enemy and Dungeons as my favored Terrain, and went with the wolf animal companion.
Most of my Gold went to improving my rapier (Defending & Bane Undead), making a set of spell storing daggers, and then the rest went into scrolls and making items for my two other party members.
We had sort of a three musketeers thing going Myself; focused on battlefield control and confounding the BBEG, a Paladin/Bard/Mystic Theurge who was the main healer, and a Rogue/Shadowdancer/Duelist who was impossible to hit and had quite a few tricks.
If you use cavalier and what to be teamwork oriented I recommend order of the dragon for the increase in aid other -- this works best with the feat that lets you aid as a swift action or the bodyguard feat though.
For self boosting: Order of the star is really nice -- the calling bonus equals your charisma modifier and the order looks smashing for a bardic follower of desna. The skill choices and bonuses aren't bad either.