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So I was working up a new character and thinking of being a Sorcerer, so the obvious question of which bloodline to take was first on my list. The new Stormborn bloodline looked like a good thematic fit, however one thing struck me about their first level ability...you can't use it on yourself until 4th level.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how it shoudl work, but since it only lasts for for half your sorcerer level in rounds (hence 1 round until 4th lvl), and it is a standard action to activate, and it enhances a weapon, you can only effectively use it on someone else until you are 4th level. Now that might be reasonable, but it seems out of concept that the stormborn sorcerer can only make someone else's weapon charged with electricity (the boreal power works the same way). Out of all the bloodlines, only Destined gets an ability at first level that is of reduced uselfulness when used on themself or directly used by them and that one is so good it seems ok. Both the boreal ability and the stormborn ability seem way underpowered and thematically out of place in contrast to other bloodlines. Maybe if it were a swift action but could only be used on a weapon that you wielded yourself that would be better?
I haven't seen any errata yet on the APG so perhaps this will be fixed?
The new Stormborn bloodline looked like a good thematic fit, however one thing struck me about their first level ability...you can't use it on yourself until 4th level.
How do you figure that? I just read the entry and understood it to mean "touch a weapon", not "someone else's weapon". This means, to me, that you can enchant your own weapon and others.
The new Stormborn bloodline looked like a good thematic fit, however one thing struck me about their first level ability...you can't use it on yourself until 4th level.How do you figure that? I just read the entry and understood it to mean "touch a weapon", not "someone else's weapon". This means, to me, that you can enchant your own weapon and others.
That's why I said you can't use it on yourself...sure you can touch someone else's weapon and it will have the Shock property for 1 rd, but givning your own weapon the shock property for 1 round is useless since you won't be able to attack with it having used your std action to activate the ability.
Being stormborn you would think it would be easier to enhance your own weapon than it is someone elses...
Nevermind, I see the limitation...*removing idiotic posts now*
I could see houseruling this as a swift action or at least increasing the duration to equal caster level.
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As a GM the way I'm handling this is to allow the ability to be used on the own weapon on the next round, so buff the weapon on round one, use it on round two. Furthermore I keep this up onward so, for example, at 6th level after deciding to do this on it's own weapon on round 1 of combat on that round the effect is activated and on rounds 2 through 4 it is usable.
Isshia
The new Stormborn bloodline looked like a good thematic fit, however one thing struck me about their first level ability...you can't use it on yourself until 4th level.
It seems you're concerned about the duration being too short, which I think is misplaced.
I believe that if a spell has a duration of one round, it will last until the end of your action the next round (or even until the end of the next round, though I can't find any text to back up exactly when spells 'start' or 'end'). At the very least, the sorceror will have his next round to act after spending the standard action, allowing him to smite his enemies with an extra 1d6 points of damage.
So it isn't useless. In some ways, the concept mirrors 'sanctuary' at first level. If you only count the round you cast it, it becomes relatively useless. If it lasts until the end of the next round, it becomes useful. Same thing with 'summon'ing spells at first level.
Many other low-level spells and abilities function in much the same way.
The new Stormborn bloodline looked like a good thematic fit, however one thing struck me about their first level ability...you can't use it on yourself until 4th level.It seems you're concerned about the duration being too short, which I think is misplaced.
I believe that if a spell has a duration of one round, it will last until the end of your action the next round (or even until the end of the next round, though I can't find any text to back up exactly when spells 'start' or 'end'). At the very least, the sorceror will have his next round to act after spending the standard action, allowing him to smite his enemies with an extra 1d6 points of damage.
So it isn't useless. In some ways, the concept mirrors 'sanctuary' at first level. If you only count the round you cast it, it becomes relatively useless. If it lasts until the end of the next round, it becomes useful. Same thing with 'summon'ing spells at first level.
Many other low-level spells and abilities function in much the same way.
Actually the duration is fine I think, I was going to propose to my Gm making it a full round action, then it would be in effect starting the following round and be more useful. Ironic eh? sanctuary is a bad example though since it affects others and they are guaranteed to get to act sometime before your current round and the start of your next one. Summoning spells are similar in that they are a full round action to cast and hence the first round is the round following it being cast.
I believe that if a spell has a duration of one round, it will last until the end of your action the next round (or even until the end of the next round, though I can't find any text to back up exactly when spells 'start' or 'end').
This is what I've always assumed, but now I'm having the same problem pinning down the section of the rulebook covering it.
I believe that if a spell has a duration of one round, it will last until the end of your action the next round (or even until the end of the next round, though I can't find any text to back up exactly when spells 'start' or 'end').This is what I've always assumed, but now I'm having the same problem pinning down the section of the rulebook covering it.
Based on the wording in True Strike I would have to say that is not how it is intended to work, otherwise there would be no need to specify that the bonus in True Strike is effective the next round.
I believe that if a spell has a duration of one round, it will last until the end of your action the next round (or even until the end of the next round, though I can't find any text to back up exactly when spells 'start' or 'end').This is what I've always assumed, but now I'm having the same problem pinning down the section of the rulebook covering it.
Actually, the only thing I could find is on page 178, stating that effects end right before the initiative count of the action that initiated it. There's also a similar thread, but with no resolution.
and
There's a few others out there, too. Some have different consensus, but none, it seems have been handed an official ruling from on-high.
Personally, I think having it last until the end of the activating character's next turn is reasonable (as long as he doesn't delay or ready an action that turn, then it ends on the initiative count). If he uses it on himself or on another, each only get one round of actions from it. And there's no way to game the system to get more by placing it on someone else.
On the other side, it's not completely useless, as it can be used to make attacks of opportunity or enhance immediate actions...
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Based on the wording in True Strike I would have to say that is not how it is intended to work, otherwise there would be no need to specify that the bonus in True Strike is effective the next round.I believe that if a spell has a duration of one round, it will last until the end of your action the next round (or even until the end of the next round, though I can't find any text to back up exactly when spells 'start' or 'end').This is what I've always assumed, but now I'm having the same problem pinning down the section of the rulebook covering it.
Well, True Strike is a personal spell and the bloodline abilities in question are touch.
I would say the bloodline weapon enhancements would take effect the next round if used on the caster's weapon, but could possibly be used in the same round if the caster touched an ally's weapon before the ally's turn to act -- hence no reason to pin the ability down as far as what round it could be used in.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that a "round" duration is in relation to the characters' individual rounds. Example following...
Stormborn Sorcerer vs. Goblin Fodder
1 - Round One of Combat (Total Rounds)
(Goblin's 1st Round)
2 - Round Two of Combat (Total Rounds)
Goblin has high initiative, uses it to pick nose.
(Sorcerer's 1st Round)
Stormborn draws weapon and empowers with electricity (for 1 round starting now).
3 - Round Three of Combat (Total Rounds)
(Goblin's 2nd Round)
Goblin yells at "electric mage", fumbles drawing weapon.
4 - Round Four of Combat (Total Rounds)
(Sorcerer's 2nd Round)
Stormborn steps up to angry goblin and smacks him before the weapon's electric enchantment dies off.
That's the way I'd handle it.
I was under the impression that the rounds duration was USABLE rounds. If the simple act of casting the spell (Or SLA) uses up a spells duration to 0 effect then it would seem logical that the spells intention is to give at least one round of usable effect.
If you cast it on someone else they get to use it on their next action for 'one round's' total effect.
I see 0 reason why this would not work exactly the same when using the ability on one's own weapon.
So you would cast it on round one and be able to take a swing on round two with it active for one rounds worth of effect.
They way your interpreting it currently your getting a 0 round duration. In effect the spell ends the moment you finish casting it on your own weapon, which is not the intent or function of the ability.
I was under the impression that the rounds duration was USABLE rounds. If the simple act of casting the spell (Or SLA) uses up a spells duration to 0 effect then it would seem logical that the spells intention is to give at least one round of usable effect.
If you cast it on someone else they get to use it on their next action for 'one round's' total effect.
I see 0 reason why this would not work exactly the same when using the ability on one's own weapon.
So you would cast it on round one and be able to take a swing on round two with it active for one rounds worth of effect.
They way your interpreting it currently your getting a 0 round duration. In effect the spell ends the moment you finish casting it on your own weapon, which is not the intent or function of the ability.
No, I'm interpreting that it ends when your next round begins. I agree that logically you shuld be able to use it, but I don't think the rules support that logic. If spells work the way you suggest then I could cast Vanish and would disappear not only for the rest of my current round, but for my next round as well.
Here's how I would write it:
Thunderstaff (Sp): At 1st level, you can grant a weapon the shock property for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1).
At 9th level, you can confer the shocking burst property
instead, but the duration of the power is halved. You can
use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your
Charisma modifier.
It is a full round action to use this ability and requires a touch or ranged touch up to maximum of 30 feet at the beginning of the characters turn after the spell-like ability completes.Good, Bad? What do you think?
I think a full round is way too harsh. Personally, if you didn't go with the 'until the end of the caster's next turn' rule, which seems to satisfy without going crazy, I'd rule it as a swift or free action, like the claws and a few of the other low-level caster abilities.
In my game, as a DM, I use the 'until the end of the caster's next turn.' Rationalize it this way...the 'initiative count' that the ability was used in was triggered at the end of the character's turn, and it ends just before that...
A full round means that it can get disrupted by attacks, that the caster can't move for a full turn to use an ability that doesn't last very long and really doesn't have much of an effect (especially at the level in question). If he is going to touch someone else, they have to be near him at the end of the 'casting' in question as well. Full round is way too much.
If spells work the way you suggest then I could cast Vanish and would disappear not only for the rest of my current round, but for my next round as well.
No, because Vanish is reactive, defensive and passive. It's effects kick in and are applicable from the moment you cast it till the start of your next round. Since it is defensive and passive, it is doing it's job for the entire time and if your attacked or targeted in the time period it is effective.
With an attack effect that requires an action to utilise, such as the OP's situation, I cannot see where the round of duration is used up simply in starting the ability. It would allow one round of 'use' before expiring. Since it's use requires another action, it should be available for your next action.
While I cannot support this with a specifically cited RAW, I can attest that if played this way your game will most certainly not collapse or explode and the ablity would then be USABLE by the caster at the level it is received, which would seem to be the part of the intent of giving the ability in the first place.
I'm the GM for this game and I have seen this issue in different cases for personal based spells/spell-like abilities/supernatural abilities but not much for touch based spells. The trick is to create a fix for this that encompasses all applications of the ability.....Good, Bad? What do you think?
Making it a full round casting time is far too harsh, IMO. Simply adopt the rule that in the very rare instances where a 1 round duration would not allow the caster of an ability to use the ability at all, that they can use the ability on the next round and the the ability expires.
If spells work the way you suggest then I could cast Vanish and would disappear not only for the rest of my current round, but for my next round as well.No, because Vanish is reactive, defensive and passive. It's effects kick in and are applicable from the moment you cast it till the start of your next round. Since it is defensive and passive, it is doing it's job for the entire time and if your attacked or targeted in the time period it is effective.
With an attack effect that requires an action to utilise, such as the OP's situation, I cannot see where the round of duration is used up simply in starting the ability. It would allow one round of 'use' before expiring. Since it's use requires another action, it should be available for your next action.
While I cannot support this with a specifically cited RAW, I can attest that if played this way your game will most certainly not collapse or explode and the ablity would then be USABLE by the caster at the level it is received, which would seem to be the part of the intent of giving the ability in the first place.
I agree with all the points made logically, I just don't believe the duration rules as written make any reference in utilizing the effect of a spell in determining when that duration ends, i.e. all spells with a duration of 1 round end when the caster's next round begins by rule. I'm perfectly fine with houseruling the ability to work for 1 effective round per 2 caster levels, and that probably is the intent. I just wish they would write things better so that you don't have to houserule a bunch of things because they didn't think it through when writing the ability.
So I was working up a new character and thinking of being a Sorcerer, so the obvious question of which bloodline to take was first on my list. The new Stormborn bloodline looked like a good thematic fit, however one thing struck me about their first level ability...you can't use it on yourself until 4th level.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how it shoudl work, but since it only lasts for for half your sorcerer level in rounds (hence 1 round until 4th lvl), and it is a standard action to activate, and it enhances a weapon, you can only effectively use it on someone else until you are 4th level. Now that might be reasonable, but it seems out of concept that the stormborn sorcerer can only make someone else's weapon charged with electricity (the boreal power works the same way). Out of all the bloodlines, only Destined gets an ability at first level that is of reduced uselfulness when used on themself or directly used by them and that one is so good it seems ok. Both the boreal ability and the stormborn ability seem way underpowered and thematically out of place in contrast to other bloodlines. Maybe if it were a swift action but could only be used on a weapon that you wielded yourself that would be better?
I haven't seen any errata yet on the APG so perhaps this will be fixed?
I understand that a round is not your turn.
a round is a whole sequence of combat til that part of your turn again.
So if you move, use this as a standard it would function til the end of your next turn because that is 1 full round.
turn and round are often confused but they are quite different. Turn is used when it references to your actual turn, round is used when rounds come into play.
Just how I read it anyways.
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No, I'm interpreting that it ends when your next round begins. I agree that logically you shuld be able to use it, but I don't think the rules support that logic. If spells work the way you suggest then I could cast Vanish and would disappear not only for the rest of my current round, but for my next round as well.
Good point. As a GM I'd use the GM duty of common sense here and not strip the power of it's usage, but I'd like to see the Piazo Guys chime in with a ruling here as I could see it's utility as part to make the Attack before 4th level with AoOs and in buffing party members... as the OP pointed out.
Isshia
No, I'm interpreting that it ends when your next round begins. I agree that logically you shuld be able to use it, but I don't think the rules support that logic. If spells work the way you suggest then I could cast Vanish and would disappear not only for the rest of my current round, but for my next round as well.Good point. As a GM I'd use the GM duty of common sense here and not strip the power of it's usage, but I'd like to see the Piazo Guys chime in with a ruling here as I could see it's utility as part to make the Attack before 4th level with AoOs and in buffing party members... as the OP pointed out.
Isshia
People are confusing Round with Turn.
They are both referenced through out the books but are entirely different, your turn is not a round, it is a small part of a round.
If an action takes the end of your turn then a full round is until the end of your next turn.
No, I'm interpreting that it ends when your next round begins. I agree that logically you shuld be able to use it, but I don't think the rules support that logic. If spells work the way you suggest then I could cast Vanish and would disappear not only for the rest of my current round, but for my next round as well.Good point. As a GM I'd use the GM duty of common sense here and not strip the power of it's usage, but I'd like to see the Piazo Guys chime in with a ruling here as I could see it's utility as part to make the Attack before 4th level with AoOs and in buffing party members... as the OP pointed out.
Isshia
People are confusing Round with Turn.
They are both referenced through out the books but are entirely different, your turn is not a round, it is a small part of a round.
If an action takes the end of your turn then a full round is until the end of your next turn.
Sounds good, but since this is a standard action I could cast it and then move...so when does it end, when I move next round? when I finish a standard action next round? what if I take a full round action next round, does it end somewhere in the middle of that action?
Sounds good, but since this is a standard action I could cast it and then move...so when does it end, when I move next round? when I finish a standard action next round? what if I take a full round action next round, does it end somewhere in the middle of that action?No, I'm interpreting that it ends when your next round begins. I agree that logically you shuld be able to use it, but I don't think the rules support that logic. If spells work the way you suggest then I could cast Vanish and would disappear not only for the rest of my current round, but for my next round as well.Good point. As a GM I'd use the GM duty of common sense here and not strip the power of it's usage, but I'd like to see the Piazo Guys chime in with a ruling here as I could see it's utility as part to make the Attack before 4th level with AoOs and in buffing party members... as the OP pointed out.
Isshia
People are confusing Round with Turn.
They are both referenced through out the books but are entirely different, your turn is not a round, it is a small part of a round.
If an action takes the end of your turn then a full round is until the end of your next turn.
see now thats where it gets tricky.
for the standard and then move I would say after your first action next round (both are relatively the same in respect to time, effort and ability is usually the deciding factor).
although some would assume it to be til the end of your turn as it does not really change the demographic of this.
As for how I would rule with a full round? its the first action of the following round so I would say yes.
One round would mean essentially the end of your turn on the next round.
AoO's become fair more valuable this way which can become interesting (if they happen before the full round ends)
As for how long on the next turn it functions, I would assume til the end of your turn (that makes it a full round, half a turn doesnt really exist)
A FAQ in this instance may be needed but it undoubtedly lasts until your next turn (if not for the whole part atleast a portion). I would just assume because half turns dont exist and a round consists of turns then it would work until the end of your turn, because the effect may not even take place until the end of your turn (it doesnt say and attacking with it or having the bonus doesn't really apply until at the very least your turn is over.
As for other people it would still function with the limitation of the end of your turn.
Sorry, no.
The terms are tricky, but the intent is clear. For instance, a cast that is "a full round" action, ends at the end of the present round, you are not continuing to cast all the way into the next round on your turn.
Isshia
A full round action is not a full round. a full round action references YOUR action for the current full round, not 1 full round.
1 round or 1 full round represents 1 round for everyone. A full round action represents YOUR actions for the duration of your turn.
Common misconception.
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Again, sorry, no.
According to the PF SRD-->
Round: Combat is measured in rounds. During an individual round, all creatures have a chance to take a turn to act, in order of initiative. A round represents 6 seconds in the game world.
You need to cite the differences. I've have found nothing in 3.0, 3.5 or Path Finder that states as a standard that there is a difference between a full round action and an "individual round".
pg. 187 the Pathfinder Core Book
"A full round action requires an entire round to complete."
That does not say "your entire round" but "AN entire round".
If you've found a different rules statement please give us a page citation so we can look it up.
Isshia
Sorry, no.
The terms are tricky, but the intent is clear. For instance, a cast that is "a full round" action, ends at the end of the present round, you are not continuing to cast all the way into the next round on your turn.
Isshia
Actually, casting a one-round casting time spell is the full-round action (and the only one that I can see) that explicitly does last until your next turn.
Cast a Spell
A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.
When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from 1 round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell.
You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least 1 full round. While casting a spell, you don't threaten any squares around you.
This action is otherwise identical to the cast a spell action described under Standard Actions.
Most other full-round actions last only during the current turn (charge, full-attack, withdraw, etc.). These also can't be split by taking two standard actions in two turns, for ex. all of a full attack is performed on the initiative where the character acts, not split up or only becoming effective before they act in the next round.
There's another exception, too that calls into contrast the difference between a full-round action and a one-round action (i.e. a spell with a one-round casting time). And that's in the section that's about casting a spontaneous spell with metamagic:
Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard (except for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which take 1 swift action to cast). Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time. Spells that take a full-round action to cast take effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you are not required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn.
The controversy here is that the only place where it defines when a spell (or an effect) ends states that it ends on the initiative count before it began after the appropriate number of rounds. This renders many one-round effects technically unusable by their initiators if they require a standard action.
I think most folks agree that the effect should last until the end of the wielder's next turn. It makes sense, makes it effective and can't be gamed for more actions (i.e. casting it on someone else that's delaying to be able to strike twice, etc.). It also doesn't make it overwhelming or dangerous compared to similar powers (claws that can be grown as a free action, etc.). It would be nice to have a double check, and I think folks have been confused enough by it to have it answered in a FAQ (I've found at least four recent threads about similar topics).
Remember, you can vote for FAQs by clicking on the FAQ button on the original question!
I removed a post and a reply to it. Don't post angry, folks.
I had a conversation with a game designer a long time ago in which I was arguing a point (which I don't recall now I'm afraid). Anyways, my point hinged on the idea that there was a difference between rounds and turns. At first, I only managed to confuse him. He later realized what I was getting at and then acknowledged that he had written the rules while using the terms interchangeably. Round = turn, apparently it's been that way since the start of 3rd edition. So for better or for worse, a round =/= a turn, is false.
(Which I think is stupid I might add, the terms could clear up so much stuff if used properly.)
In regards to the full-round/one round question, there are full-round actions that end at the end of the character's current turn (meaning their current action sequence before the next character acts). Most normal full-round actions fit into this category: full attack, withdraw, run, charge, casting a spontaneous spell with metamagic, etc.
Then certain actions carry over until the next turn right before your initiative: spell casting a one-round casting time spell, performing a task that lasts one round or more than one round (certain types of lockpicking, for ex.) These carry over and can be disrupted by characters that act in the intervening 'time'.
I think that there is a discrepancy in terminology between full-round and one round. I seem to recall in 3.0 or 3.5 that there were spells that were full-round actions to cast, and others were one-round. In checking out the d20PRD, it seems that there was a little confusion in terminology even there (a few spells listed a full-round action, others were one-round, some were listed as 'three full rounds') and in the casting time description, it explained that a one-round casting time carried over much as it does in PF. The discrepancy may be a holdover from 3.0 that finally was 'repaired' in PF, as well.
This seems to be another point of confusion, and maybe differentiating these actions should be something to look towards in a revision, etc. (Like full-turn action vs. full-round, etc.)
I had a conversation with a game designer a long time ago in which I was arguing a point (which I don't recall now I'm afraid). Anyways, my point hinged on the idea that there was a difference between rounds and turns. At first, I only managed to confuse him. He later realized what I was getting at and then acknowledged that he had written the rules while using the terms interchangeably. Round = turn, apparently it's been that way since the start of 3rd edition. So for better or for worse, a round =/= a turn, is false.
(Which I think is stupid I might add, the terms could clear up so much stuff if used properly.)
Heh. As an old-school gamer, it's hard for me to remember that a turn does not equal ten rounds (i.e. ten minutes)!