Message
School transmutation [language-dependent]; Level bard 0, sorcerer/wizard 0, summoner 0Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a piece of copper wire)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets one creature/level
Duration 10 min./level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You can whisper messages and receive whispered replies. Those nearby can hear these messages with a DC 25 Perception check. You point your finger at each creature you want to receive the message. When you whisper, the whispered message is audible to all targeted creatures within range. Magical silence, 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal (or a thin sheet of lead), or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks the spell. The message does not have to travel in a straight line. It can circumvent a barrier if there is an open path between you and the subject, and the path's entire length lies within the spell's range. The creatures that receive the message can whisper a reply that you hear. The spell transmits sound, not meaning; it doesn't transcend language barriers. To speak a message, you must mouth the words and whisper.
So I was playing in a game last night with some new folk at the table. They played as if the message spell were a throat mike and could be used infinetly during the duration. Well, this was discussed and the bolded part was pointed out that that the noncaster could not initiate the message, it had to be initiated by the caster and the recipient could send back one reply.
This brings up the question part. Suppose this were the scenario.
Katie Caster: " Sam Stealth, dont reply until you need to contact me."
Sam Stealth: does not reply for five mins
Sam Stealth (five mins later): "Alright, I have made it to the top of the tower unseen."
Katie Caster: " I will let the others know, don't forget to not respond until you have new information."
and so on until the spell expired.
Is there a limit on how long one may wait before sending back one's reply? Or can one wait out until just before the duration expires?
If I were running it, I would say the reply had to be immeadiate, But I do not see that here.
Thanks for help,
Greg
I think the spell would work that way. Anything the caster says is heard by all within the spell. Things spoken to the caster are only heard by her.
"The creatures that receive the message can whisper a reply that you hear." There's nothing that compels a response.
Meh. We just use it as a magical walkie-talkie system in my groups. It's not that big of a deal. It usually encourages better team play, better roleplaying, better communication.
If it bugs you, just make it less useful.
Seems to me that they were using it as intended.
|
Meh. We just use it as a magical walkie-talkie system in my groups. It's not that big of a deal. It usually encourages better team play, better roleplaying, better communication.
If it bugs you, just make it less useful.
Most players are incapable of keeping their yap shut, or keeping player knowledge separate, so they play as if they have 2-way comms running 24/7, anyway.
This reminds everyone what the default assumption is supposed to be, lets them devote a cantrip to it, then it can be handwaved away.
Mind you it makes you glow like a rich man's christmas to Arcane sight.
So maybe you don't want the com spell when you are sneaking into the wizard's tower.
~will
It doesn't. He's referring to being looked at with Detect Magic or whatever while you have a spell on. But really the comment makes no sense since chances are any wizard's tower you are sneaking into, unless you have no magic items on or long term buffs (unlikely at any level you are sneaking into a wizard's tower with arcane sight), then you're lit up like an xmas tree to arcane sight already anyways.
I am raising this from the dead, because the exact same discussion erupted at our table the other day.
We are two casters in the groups, and we are 6-7 characters and NPC's in the group who speak a common language, so we cast it on alternating "sets" of people.
We are only level 4, but with enough castings, and under the assumption that it is indeed "throat mikes" and that more than one of these can be affecting a target at a time, then the overlap makes it work out.
Then someone brought up the bolded text above. That each recipient could only respond to a prompt from the caster.
The response to that is simple and stupid; "Then my caster just goes, 'huh?', every round to reset the system for new replies."
Finally, the party began worrying that the "enemy" could use Message to overhear our conversations. The spell has no save whatsoever and as worded, will allow anyone to listen in to whatever you whisper.
Of course, the next idea was to use it on OUR enemies.
What are your thoughts on this? - Has there been any official rulings since last year?
My own 2 cents:
The bolded part of the text might as well be used to describe the functioning of a radio system. Once contact has been established, anything the recipient says is a "reply".
The spell should be errataed to have "Will; harmless" added to it or alternatively hard written that it can only be cast on a willing target.
If usable only as a "stutter-line" where the caster has to moan a little into the headset now and then to hear the next replies... Well, it is silly.
This spell is not Sending where you formulate 25 words and get a 25 word reply back. This is a throat-mike intercom.
My understanding is that for the duration of the spell, the caster can whisper and be heard by all the people she selected to be included in the spell (by pointing at them), within distance and for the entire duration. They can all whisper to her, but she's the only one who can hear them through the spell, and can whisper in response to a message or relay it for the group.
Think of it as the caster having a powerful radio, like a CB base station with a big antenna, while the other characters' radios are weak. She can talk to them all at once, but they can't hear each other.
Someone nearby anyone whispering while using the spell can hear them with a 25 DC perception check (modified by conditions, of course). They can't "intercept the transmission" itself.
Even if someone knew you were there and was successfully reading your mind with detect thoughts, they wouldn't hear transmissions to you, but would be able to hear your transmissions, since you think them in order to whisper them. Even then, they might not get that you're using a spell.
After all this explanation, I'm inclined to just say "you all have whisper-activated throat-mounted walkie-talkies, and can all hear and talk to each other," just to make things simpler. I still have to measure distances around corners, etc. That's enough work for a 0-level spell!
Finally, the party began worrying that the "enemy" could use Message to overhear our conversations. The spell has no save whatsoever and as worded, will allow anyone to listen in to whatever you whisper.
Of course, the next idea was to use it on OUR enemies.
What are your thoughts on this? - Has there been any official rulings since last year?
As the target of the spell is one creature per level, the caster chooses the targets when they cast the spell. Only the targets can hear what is said by the caster.
Enemies might be able to hear the response by any of the PCs, but only if they were close enough to actually hear the speaker.
After playing this game since 3.0 I finally noticed message this year. It's an awesomely powerful spell for a cantrip, even if you play it a strictly as possible.
Our ruling - caster speaks and all targeted characters hear what they say (can't exclude any of the targets), each can reply if they do so immediately (otherwise it's not a 'reply') but only the caster can hear the reply. Only one message can be going at once (limiting its use at lower levels - it doesn't say this specifically and there's no reason a GM couldn't rule that you CAN multiply cast, but if so, what's the point of having a particular number of creatures affected?). Although talking is 'free', we limit what can be said through message and if a wizard is keeping up a running commentary ("Lucius, what's going on?" "reply" "Lucius tells me that he sees six orcs passing through the hallway.") then they can't concentrate on other spells or do other magic. Also, if the wizard says "everyone report in", then they can't tell who has and who hasn't because everyone replies at once - plus it's very hard to tell one whispered voice from another so there's plenty of opportunity to screw players over if they take too great an advantage of the spell.
However, it's a really useful spell for coordinating any sort of building clearance - as a GM, I would be fairly strict and refuse to allow players to assume that they have exchanged information, insisting that they actually do so in order to gain the walkie-talkie communication that the spell allows.
|
Finally, the party began worrying that the "enemy" could use Message to overhear our conversations. The spell has no save whatsoever and as worded, will allow anyone to listen in to whatever you whisper.
Of course, the next idea was to use it on OUR enemies.
What are your thoughts on this? - Has there been any official rulings since last year?
As the target of the spell is one creature per level, the caster chooses the targets when they cast the spell. Only the targets can hear what is said by the caster.
Enemies might be able to hear the response by any of the PCs, but only if they were close enough to actually hear the speaker.
From the spell:
You can whisper messages and receive whispered replies. Those nearby can hear these messages with a DC 25 Perception check.
Enemies can hear the original message with a DC 25 perception check. The big question is what is "nearby"? My best guess is 5' (up the DC from there per perception rules).
From the spell:
You can whisper messages and receive whispered replies. Those nearby can hear these messages with a DC 25 Perception check.Enemies can hear the original message with a DC 25 perception check. The big question is what is "nearby"? My best guess is 5' (up the DC from there per perception rules).
That'll teach me to post when tired. :)
I would definately agree that you have to be close to hear, and I would add in all the penalties that apply to Perception checks (like -1 per 10").
|
|
From the spell:
You can whisper messages and receive whispered replies. Those nearby can hear these messages with a DC 25 Perception check.Enemies can hear the original message with a DC 25 perception check. The big question is what is "nearby"? My best guess is 5' (up the DC from there per perception rules).That'll teach me to post when tired. :)
I would definately agree that you have to be close to hear, and I would add in all the penalties that apply to Perception checks (like -1 per 10").
lol, no worries. Ihave posted pre-coffee before and made some good errors myself.
lol, no worries. Ihave posted pre-coffee before and made some good errors myself.From the spell:
You can whisper messages and receive whispered replies. Those nearby can hear these messages with a DC 25 Perception check.Enemies can hear the original message with a DC 25 perception check. The big question is what is "nearby"? My best guess is 5' (up the DC from there per perception rules).That'll teach me to post when tired. :)
I would definately agree that you have to be close to hear, and I would add in all the penalties that apply to Perception checks (like -1 per 10").
No, no, while you are both absolutely correct in your observations, you are misunderstanding me.
What I mean is; The ENEMY uses a 0 lvl spell from his place in hiding on the party of PC's. Now he can listen in to everything they say!
The PC's get no save and no warning. The spy enemy just continues to skulk around at +100 ft. range, listening in to every detail. - He has to be careful not to speak himself, as that would reveal his presence on the "radio".
Likewise, the PC's spot enemies in a room ahead. They can hear them talking, but not what is being said. The sneakiest caster creep into range (100 feet+!!) and targets the enemies he can see with Message. He then sits back and listens in. - Or the party begins their sneaky approach with the caster being able to warn his party to quiet down if the enemy becomes more aware etc.
No, no, while you are both absolutely correct in your observations, you are misunderstanding me.
What I mean is; The ENEMY uses a 0 lvl spell from his place in hiding on the party of PC's. Now he can listen in to everything they say!
The PC's get no save and no warning. The spy enemy just continues to skulk around at +100 ft. range, listening in to every detail. - He has to be careful not to speak himself, as that would reveal his presence on the "radio".
Likewise, the PC's spot enemies in a room ahead. They can hear them talking, but not what is being said. The sneakiest caster creep into range (100 feet+!!) and targets the enemies he can see with Message. He then sits back and listens in. - Or the party begins their sneaky approach with the caster being able to warn his party to quiet down if the enemy becomes more aware etc.
Ah! It only took me what, 2 days to figure out what you meant? I am so smart! S M R T!
No save, no SR. You are correct. This is a use of the spell I never considered. The only caveat is that YOU whisper a message, to which those in the spell can reply. Do you have to speak first to activate the "radio?"
"Check, one, two. Everybody hear me okay?"
"Yep."
"Uh-huh."
"10-4, good buddy."
"Wait. I gotta go potty!"
"Freakin' halflings... Listen, you have to whisper to use the spell. Normal volume doesn't work, so everybody use their 'adventurer' voice, ok?"
"10-4, good buddy."
"Okay, Lem. You go on ahead, and hide behind the curtain. Whisper when you see the boss guy, and I'll cast haste, then we charge them. Got it?.. Lem? Where's Lem?"
"I think he's invisible. Too bad he's not in-smellable."
"Gods, Lem! What did you drink?"
"4 pints of the house ale. I was nervous."
"We gotta wait on Lem."
"10-4, good buddy."
"YOU wait on Lem. Where I come from, halflings wait on us."
I'm not sure if the spell should work that way or not.
Well, usually whispers are what you have the most trouble hearing mundanely, so it would definitely have aggressive uses even under the strictest reading.
The initial question by the caster could be just a weak moan or other innocuous sound. As the targets are unaware the spell is on them, they would dismiss this in most cases or simply not notice it.
Of course someone with spellcraft or previous experience with the spell, or professional interest in espionage would be paranoid enough to listen for signs of eavesdropping. - But this would STILL be better than normal mundane eavesdropping where you have to get much closer to hear the whisper!
Strictly speaking the spell is not a two way radio. The caster can speak to his target whenever she wants, but the target can only make immediate replies to a message spoken to him.
Even under that interpretation the caster can just say "pff" every 10 seconds and trigger a new set of replies. I do not believe a spell would be so poorly designed.
Checking for order of speaking vs. an actual "throat-mike" spell would be more complicated than simply letting all targets whisper to all targets.
And either way it remains open for spying use.
RE: Spying use:
Though I've never had to deal with this aspect of potential application, I would rule that, per the spell's description, the caster can only hear *whispers* from the targets of the spell. (This may be what Benicio was alluding to with "...you have to whisper to use the spell. Normal volume doesn't work...") Also, I would rule that the very nature of the spell would make the casters' initial whisper (required by the spell to hear replies) automatically noticeable by any and all targets of the spell, as well as requiring the casters' initial whisper to be an actual message as opposed to a moan, "pfft" noise, etc.
Strictly speaking the spell is not a two way radio. The caster can speak to his target whenever she wants, but the target can only make immediate replies to a message spoken to him.
While this is a valid interpretation of the spell, so is the interpretation that after the caster whispers initially, any whisper by any target constitutes a "reply" that is heard by the caster. The spell text does not stipulate immediate reply, even if it seems to you to imply it. Such spell wordings are left intentionally vague so as to allow different GMs the freedom to allow or restrict different manners of application. This notion falls into that gray area (which permeates RAW) where there is no single correct answer other than "whatever *your* GM says."
I think that I will give the spying application a try.
Rather than try to use the "pfft" activation methode (which does have a high cheese quotient), I will have the NPC caster slowly, over several rounds, whisper, one word at a time.
"Doom, Doom, you are going to die, painfully."
See if I can not only get the spying bit in, but also raise the creep/fear aspect as well.
I think that I will give the spying application a try.
Rather than try to use the "pfft" activation methode (which does have a high cheese quotient), I will have the NPC caster slowly, over several rounds, whisper, one word at a time.
"Doom, Doom, you are going to die, painfully."
See if I can not only get the spying bit in, but also raise the creep/fear aspect as well.
If the PCs can't figure out where that voice is coming from, that would be a memorable encounter! There's no fear effect or anything, but I imagine they'll be suitably worried!
If you let it work that well, than it's far beyond the power level of a cantrip.
Checking for order of speaking vs. an actual "throat-mike" spell would be more complicated than simply letting all targets whisper to all targets.
And either way it remains open for spying use.
I do seem to recall opening this thread for that exact reason... :-p
No saves, wide open utility, I agree this is not a 0 level spell by a long shot. - But it is, so here we are.
I am DMing a group of high-level characters (8 or 9 PCs) and this conversation just came up the last time we played.
This is an AWESOME 0-level spell based on the text of the spell it works this way:
Target: one creature/level
We have some 15th level casters so casting message on the whole party isn't a problem. They can get the whole group with one casting. However, once the bard casts this on another party member, then they become the "you" in the spell description.
Bard->casts message->target=Rogue.
->target=cleric,
->target=barbarian, etc.
Rogue can now "point" at the Bard and Barbarian to speak to them and get an immediate response.
Anyone who has the spell "message" cast on them can point at someone else and get a response.
ORIGINALLY, I felt that only the caster would be able to "point" and whisper but then the text should have said "target=self".
Instead is says "target=creature/level" so those with this spell cast upon them can use this to communicate with anyone in range they "point" at.
|
|
I am DMing a group of high-level characters (8 or 9 PCs) and this conversation just came up the last time we played.
This is an AWESOME 0-level spell based on the text of the spell it works this way:
Target: one creature/level
We have some 15th level casters so casting message on the whole party isn't a problem. They can get the whole group with one casting. However, once the bard casts this on another party member, then they become the "you" in the spell description.
Bard->casts message->target=Rogue.
->target=cleric,
->target=barbarian, etc.Rogue can now "point" at the Bard and Barbarian to speak to them and get an immediate response.
Anyone who has the spell "message" cast on them can point at someone else and get a response.
ORIGINALLY, I felt that only the caster would be able to "point" and whisper but then the text should have said "target=self".
Instead is says "target=creature/level" so those with this spell cast upon them can use this to communicate with anyone in range they "point" at.
you know, I never read it like that, now it appears clear. I might just work it that way for future games. Also makes it a great fun spell for a rogue to take as their "minor Magic" talent.