Knowledge [geography] is the most appropriate skill for this task.
Really? I though you needed a craft to create an item.
Then why ask the question if you know the answer?
Look, there's no real answer here. Ask your GM. I'd allow Knowledge (geography) to cover a crude map. If it's something you guys are trying to (or could) sell, go with Craft (Mapmaking).
Skill: Cartographer
Cartographer makes the original, going out and doing it in the field and then going home and doing the finishing touches, mapmaker makes the coppies for sale, though cartographer can do that too... its the big skill. Mapmaker is the crafter, the skilled laborer, Cartographer is the highly skilled professional :)
It's a tricky issue because it's a complex process with multiple steps; not each of which has to be performed by the same character.
The preliminary step involved in making a map is in collecting accurate information through on-site exploration and surveying (ideally with some navigation equipment like a compass, sextant, astrolabe, spyglass and plenty of scratch paper). I believe this step would be covered by the Profession (surveyor) skill, as would the subsequent marketing and selling of the resultant information if desirable. The higher the check result, the more precise any resultant map is likely to be.
The risks of exploring a wild area without succumbing to the elements or getting lost can be mitigated by someone with ranks in Survival. The higher the check result, the less time it will take to explore an area and the more likely the map is to be completed.
Actually drafting a finished map would be covered by the Craft (cartography) skill. The higher the check result, the more esthetic any resultant map is likely to be.
Skill ranks in Knowledge (geography) represents what a character knows about the lay of the land, either through learning from books, teachers or through personal experience. In a sense, ranks in Knowledge (geography) represents what a character knows about an area when first going in, and is later increased (through the acquisition of more ranks) once they return. Simply knowing stuff doesn't automatically result in a finished map.
So the task can be split between several individuals (a guide, a surveyor, and a cartographer) if desired, or they can be managed by a single skilled explored with some skill in all aspects of the process. Since a Craft skill can be attempted by anyone untrained, anybody with some insight into an area can put pen to paper and draft a simple map. But a really nice map, in the end, would be the result of a high Craft (cartography) skill check.
That's my two cents.
In Rivers Run Red there is a cartographer NPC who has Craft (Cartography), Knowledge (Geography), and Profession (Cartographer), so I think that those three would be the ones to focus on for a PC as well. I imagine that several different sorts of craft skills might also be swapped in, such as drafting or painting, but that's up to you.
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If you're looking for an alternate opinion, I would say either Craft (Mapmaking) or Profession (Cartographer) but not both. Personally, I would go with the Profession but it's not a big deal either way. I would say that either skill should produce a reasonably accurate map akin to those produced during the 1400's-1500's+ age of exploration maps.
Perfect surveying is beyond the scale of what an explorer would be able to do in a couple of days in such a large hex and is most definitely an import from our hyper-accurate modern culture anyway. The best maps would be produced from Griffin-back or something but making maps of trees are here, hills are there, river bends like this should be a reasonably accessible skill without a huge outlay of skill points.
DC15 for a reasonably accurate map that is followable by most people (i.e. a trained cartographer of reasonable skill could take 10 and do this)
DC20 for an excellent map with almost no errors
DC25 for a perfect map with near-survey precision
DC30 for something like a satellite photo
+5 DC for difficult conditions (Fog, Rain, Dark - these would be cumulative)
-5 DC for mapping from a high point (Fly spell, dragon back, whatever)
Looks to me that we are all right, but but +1 for every one els for doing it better than me ;)
Greycloak of Bowness, is that Bowness of Calgary ?
Any way you look at it they are all good ideas :)
Hey Greycloak shiro.kuma at hotmail com formerly of Calgary living in lethbridge :)
Perfect surveying is beyond the scale of what an explorer would be able to do in a couple of days in such a large hex and is most definitely an import from our hyper-accurate modern culture anyway. The best maps would be produced from Griffin-back or something but making maps of trees are here, hills are there, river bends like this should be a reasonably accessible skill without a huge outlay of skill points.
Certainly anyone with some insight into an area and a modicum of talent can draft a serviceable "trees are here, hills are there, river bends like this" map. The Craft skill can be attempted unskilled, so anyone can doodle with no investment of ranks required. But there's a difference between a quick-and-dirty map and one produced by a skilled cartographer; and that's what we're discussing.
I disagree that hyper-accurate cartography is solely a product of the modern era. The astrolabe and compass are thousands of years old while spyglasses and sextants date back to the 17th and 18th centuries respectively. They were invented in those eras because of a desire and need for greater accuracy in cartography and navigation. Some of James Cook's maps from the 18th century were so precise that they were still in use up until the early 20th century. Any society advanced enough to have developed such tools (such as the Inner Sea region of Golarion) has a commensurate need for accurate maps. Accurate maps can win or loose wars and, in turn, can help turn countries into empires. Since that's what the PCs in Kingmaker are contemplating, I'd imagine that it would pay for them to invest in accurate maps. My ¢2.
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I disagree that hyper-accurate cartography is solely a product of the modern era. The astrolabe and compass are thousands of years old while spyglasses and sextants date back to the 17th and 18th centuries respectively. They were invented in those eras because of a desire and need for greater accuracy in cartography and navigation. Some of James Cook's maps from the 18th century were so precise that they were still in use up until the early 20th century. Any society advanced enough to have developed such tools (such as the Inner Sea region of Golarion) has a commensurate need for accurate maps. Accurate maps can win or loose wars and, in turn, can help turn countries into empires. Since that's what the PCs in Kingmaker are contemplating, I'd imagine that it would pay for them to invest in accurate maps. My ¢2.
While that's all true, I worry less about the nitty gritty of precise cartography and more about what is reasonable and fun for the PCs. James Cook took 5 years to produce this map of the coast of Newfoundland (an island that is something similar in size to the state of Maine, the benchmark for how large the Stolen Lands are):
Cook's Newfoundland MapNow, this map was made primarily from measurements taken at sea during the summer time, with the season's notes being compiled during the winter. Cook did not have monsters to fight, quests to complete, camp to strike and set or a kingdom to govern, and he still only managed to map the coastline. There is no differentiation between forested, swampy and clear areas and Newfoundland has 100's of lakes and 1000's of streams and rivers, that are not mapped in this masterpiece of cartography. I would argue that to produce a map whose detail of the interior landmarks that is equal to the coastal landmarks would have taken Cook 20 years, maybe? That all assumes that one could map the interior of a forest to that level of precision, which I doubt.
The kingmaker map hexes are 12 miles across, something like 100 square miles per hex. A horsebacked PC can "fully explore" any hex in one day, and can claim a hex to the kingdom in a month. Even in a game of superhuman talents, one would need at least a week per hex to attain the level of detail in Cook's charts.
I guess I imagine the PCs reasonably being able to generate something like these two contemporary maps of Hispaniola (Haiti and Dominican Republic):
Joseph Spear map
Louis Drake map
You'll notice that while the coastlines are similar, there are differences and generalizations about what is where. The interior features are quite different. For scale, the fat part of Hispaniola is about 200 miles East-West (16 hexes) by about 100 miles North-South (8 hexes), or about the scale of the original Greenbelt Charter.
I would prefer to think that my PCs are generating maps similar to this one, which is overall pretty good and could be followed well:
World map
Having thought about this further, I would modify my DCs from my previous post to something like this:
- DC15 for a reasonably accurate sketched map that is followable by most people (i.e. a trained cartographer of reasonable skill could take 10 and do this). This could be done in a single day of mapping per hex and would produce a map that was accurate within a half mile. (This would be similar to the World map in terms of the scale of the inaccuracies).
- DC20 for an excellent map with almost no errors. This would take a week per hex and would produce a map accurate within a quarter mile. (This would be similar to the Hispaniola maps in terms of inaccuracies)
- DC25 for a perfect map with near-survey precision. This would take two weeks per hex and would produce a map accurate within 100'. (This would be similar to Cook's map.)
- DC30 for something like a satellite photo. This would take a month per hex and would produce a map accurate within 1'. (This would be similar to modern surveys or those of the planned, gridded ancient cities or around the pyramid site etc.)
+5 DC for difficult conditions (Fog, Rain, Dark - these would be cumulative). This also bumps the surveying time up to the next class.
-5 DC for mapping from a high point (Fly spell, dragon back, whatever). This also bumps the surveying time down to the next class.
My ranger is the cartographer of our group. I didn't think of knowledge (geography) but between a high survival skill and a decent profession (cartographer) skill our group is good with using them to map our kingdom as we explore. IMO, if having ranks in a profession skill means you're good enough to make money doing it then I can't see really needing more than that.
You could always use Drawing and Forgery :)
I used a combination of Knowledge (Geography) and any relevant craft or profession in my game.
Try this:
Profession: Cartographer/Map Maker
Craft Skill: Maps (requires at least 1 Rank in Knowledge Geography?)
Or you could just hand wave it and just assume that the party is collaborating on making a map for the Sword Lords. Unless you have a player or players that want(s) to have a role as a mapmaker, there's no need to make anyone give up some skill points that won't help in actual encounters.
*fist bump*