So, if you can put weapon bonuses on a shild, can you put shield bonuses on the off-hand weapon while TWF?
Suppose you take the Improved Shield Bash feat and have a shield bonus on the off-hand weapon(wink, wink, nudge, nudge).
Is there anything that says you can't?
So, if you can put weapon bonuses on a shild, can you put shield bonuses on the off-hand weapon while TWF?
Suppose you take the Improved Shield Bash feat and have a shield bonus on the off-hand weapon(wink, wink, nudge, nudge).
Is there anything that says you can't?
Yes. That there's no such thing as a "shield bonus" enchantment. The enhancement bonus to a shield increases the shields effectiveness as a shield. An enhancement bonus to a weapon doesn't make it block any better.
The closest thing to what you're looking for is defending
Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn.
Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus.
Page 461 Chart 15-3.. list + Armor and + shield bonus.
So if your asking can i add a +2 shield "Armour" bonus to a off hand weapon, then i think the answer would be Yes.
Remember tho that a secondary weapon has a normal shield effect of Zero.
If you use the Off-hand weapon to make an attack, you would lose the shield bonus. The Shield bonus Does Not help you hit or strike the target better.
.......
Basically the Reverse of enchanting a Shield with "Weapon Bonuses". Which you can do. As listed on page 152 PF phb = Shield Bash Attacks. (last line)
.......
Before someone ask... What happens if i carry a Light wooden shield +2 in one hand and a +3 shield bonus sword in the other.?? You would only get the best of the two bonuses.
If you do not attack this round: AC +4 (shield +1 Non-magical, Sword +3)
If you attack with your weapon this round: AC + 3 (Shield +1 Non-magical, Shield +2 magic).
If you attack with your shield this round (and not the weapon)= AC +3 (Swrod +3 ac),
.......
Also the question, can i have both a +3 shield bonus and +2 weapon bonus on a sword.... Well i could see doing it, but your adding 1.5 times the cost to the price, while at the same time, you can only apply one bonus at a time (If you use it as a weapon you do not get the sheild bonus, and if you use it as a shield you do not get the weapon bonus)....."Multiple different ability" for the 1.5 rule & "Shield Bash Attacks" rule for which bonus you can use.
Unless of course you take improved shield bash to retain the shield bonus while attacking with it.
Not so. Improved Shield Bash only works in conjunction with a shield bash; an attack with a regular weapon would not qualify.
To be honest, i wish they had never let shield be used as a weapon. It would have made things a lot easier.
Not everything has to be realistic... Wish they never allowed shield as weapons.
Ho well, to late now... and if shields can be used as weapon, i see no reason weapons can not be used as shield.. just less effective ones.
Scizore
Also known as a Taldan scissor, the scizore is a hardened tube that fits your forearm, ending with a semicircular blade at the end.Description: The scizore gives a +1 shield bonus to AC, but if you attack with the blade, you lose the AC bonus that round and take a –1 penalty on attack rolls with the scizore.
Drawback: While wearing a scizore, you cannot use that hand for anything else.
Action: Donning the scizore is a full-round action.
Source Adventurer's Armory
Only really knew because is favored weapon of halfing barbarian in my RotRL campaign.
I think i would make a specific enchantment to do the job something like bashing for shields.
Blocking: A blocking weapon allows the wielder to use his one handed melee weapon as a shield. The type of shield depends on the size of the weapon with this enchantment a light weapon sized for the wielder acts as a light shield, a medium weapon sized for the wielder acts as a heavy shield. A weapon with this enchantment can be enchanted as a shield in addition to its weapon enchantments but the modifier from this enchantment is included in both weapon and shield enchantments for the purpose of cost. i.e. a +2 Rapier of Blocking costs as a +3 weapon (18,000) if it's shield bonus is also enchanted to +2 it costs as much as a +3 shield enchantment (9,000)in addition to the weapon (total 27,000)
Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus.
I was considering allowing an oversized medium weapon to act as a tower shield using this but i have balance concerns for it.
Rules for adding "weapon enchantments" "armor enchantment" and "shield enchantment" are already listed in the PHB. So that is what i would use for game constancy.
A shield can be used as a weapon because it is a large heavy object that is reinforced to take beatings.
A weapon cannot be used as a shield because it is not a broad, wide, target physically taking up space to get in the way of incoming blows.
There is already a defending weapon ability, and the enhancements for shields and armor are specifically for shields and armor as "Magic Armor and Shield Special Ability Descriptions"
A shield can be used as a weapon because it is a large heavy object that is reinforced to take beatings.
A weapon cannot be used as a shield because it is not a broad, wide, target physically taking up space to get in the way of incoming blows.
Not to get argumentative but isn't this a physics argument in a magic game?
There is already a defending weapon ability, and the enhancements for shields and armor are specifically for shields and armor as "Magic Armor and Shield Special Ability Descriptions"
Generally i agree with you using the standard rules is my preference too but if we never try out new rules this game would get stagnant fairly quickly also the defending enchantment can be used to game breaking cheese effects like the +5 defending armor spikes i read about on a different thread.
Page 461 Chart 15-3.. list + Armor and + shield bonus.
So if your asking can i add a +2 shield "Armour" bonus to a off hand weapon, then i think the answer would be Yes.
Remember tho that a secondary weapon has a normal shield effect of Zero.
If you use the Off-hand weapon to make an attack, you would lose the shield bonus. The Shield bonus Does Not help you hit or strike the target better.
.......
Basically the Reverse of enchanting a Shield with "Weapon Bonuses". Which you can do. As listed on page 152 PF phb = Shield Bash Attacks. (last line)
.......
Before someone ask... What happens if i carry a Light wooden shield +2 in one hand and a +3 shield bonus sword in the other.?? You would only get the best of the two bonuses.
If you do not attack this round: AC +4 (shield +1 Non-magical, Sword +3)
If you attack with your weapon this round: AC + 3 (Shield +1 Non-magical, Shield +2 magic).
If you attack with your shield this round (and not the weapon)= AC +3 (Swrod +3 ac),.......
Also the question, can i have both a +3 shield bonus and +2 weapon bonus on a sword.... Well i could see doing it, but your adding 1.5 times the cost to the price, while at the same time, you can only apply one bonus at a time (If you use it as a weapon you do not get the sheild bonus, and if you use it as a shield you do not get the weapon bonus)....."Multiple different ability" for the 1.5 rule & "Shield Bash Attacks" rule for which bonus you can use.
I will just repeat this... By the magic rules, i see nothing that says you can not enchant weapons with "Shield enchantments".
Also, there are many fighting style that use two weapons, were the off hand weapon is used to parry/deflect oncoming weapon attack, mush as one does a shield.
I see no reason why someone can not put a shield bonus on a weapon, and use that weapon as a shield (although a less effective shield since it does not provide a natural shield bonus).
Also remember a weapon enchanted with a shield bonus; has to cost 1.5 times more than if you do a shield. As you are require to also have a +1 enchantment bonus to attack and damage on the weapon before you can apply the shield bonus.
The same is true of adding a weapon enchantment bonus to a Shield. It will cost 1.5 times more than what it would cost to add to a weapon. As you have to have a +1 shield bonus to AC on the shield before you can apply the weapon enchantment bonus.
Between the extra 1.5 cost for muliple different ability, the fact that you can not use both bonus at the same time, and the fact that 2 bonus of the same type do not stack if from two different sources. I do not see why anyone would not be allowed to do this.
As far as i know you are correct there is nothing that says you cannot however the fact that shield has a specific mention of the ability to enchant it as a weapon would seem to indicate that the reverse isn't true by RAW.
Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description).
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC. A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A shield with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
And the same should be true of weapons.
I like the idea too hence my suggestion of an enchantment like bashing for weapons above :)
Not to get argumentative but isn't this a physics argument in a magic game?
Just trying to point out the obvious: a shield is good for bashing someone in the head with. that makes it a weapon. A shortsword is pretty bad at being interposed between soft squishable organs and large pointy objects, making it not a shield. Magic tends to work by enhancing qualities that something already posses rather than giving it qualities that aren't associated in any way shape or form with the item.
Generally i agree with you using the standard rules is my preference too but if we never try out new rules this game would get stagnant fairly quickly also the defending enchantment can be used to game breaking cheese effects like the +5 defending armor spikes i read about on a different thread.
Well, this is the rules forum, so "Can you do x" implies "can you do X within the existing rules "
A therefore B. B Therefore A doesn't work as logic. You can enchant shields as magic weapons because it says you can. You can't enchant weapons as shields because they're not shields, and it doesn't say that you can.
Not to get argumentative but isn't this a physics argument in a magic game?Just trying to point out the obvious: a shield is good for bashing someone in the head with. that makes it a weapon. A shortsword is pretty bad at being interposed between soft squishable organs and large pointy objects, making it not a shield. Magic tends to work by enhancing qualities that something already posses rather than giving it qualities that aren't associated in any way shape or form with the item.
Generally i agree with you using the standard rules is my preference too but if we never try out new rules this game would get stagnant fairly quickly also the defending enchantment can be used to game breaking cheese effects like the +5 defending armor spikes i read about on a different thread.Well, this is the rules forum, so "Can you do x" implies "can you do X within the existing rules "
A therefore B. B Therefore A doesn't work as logic. You can enchant shields as magic weapons because it says you can. You can't enchant weapons as shields because they're not shields, and it doesn't say that you can.
Fair point i didn't take into account its a rules question. :) So, much as i like the image of someone holding a dagger reversed along his arm as a shield, that belongs in the homebrew rules section not here.
I disagree. Using current rules and Table 15-29: Estimating magic item gold piece values. I think that you could add a shield bonus to a weapon.
I also disagree that weapon have not been used in the past, to serve the same purpose as shield, with some style of weapon fighting.
If you can use an Off-hand shield as a weapon, then you should be able to use an Off-hand weapon as a shield.
Reason why: Listed in above posts.
If the weapon in question gave a shield bonus to begin with, I see no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to further enchant it with enhancement bonuses typically reserved for shields. I would, however, apply the normal weapon restrictions, if any.
For example, I would let you add a +5 enhancement bonus to a bill's shield bonus rather than to its attack and damage. However, you would only gain the +6 total shield bonus when fighting defensively with it.
If you were enchanting a meteor hammer, you would only benefit from the shield bonus while it was in fortress mode.
Etc.
Rather than enchanting a weapon to do this i would personally love to see active parry's and ripostes in combat possibly something like using the off hand weapon to attack the incoming attack i.e. if the attacker hit ac 27 then you can use your off hand attack to try and block needing to hit ac 27+ to block the attack. I would also allow for critical parries to invoke an Aoo against the attacker. Sadly these mechanics would slow an already cumbersome at times combat system and therefore are impractical in most games.
To make a shield a weapon you need to either have feats ( shield mastery) have shield spikes or the bashing property. If you could just enchant it straightbout as a weapon what would be the point?
Similarly with weapons there is two weapon defense and the defending property which has actradevoff which would be pointless if you could just enchant shield bonuses
To make a shield a weapon you need to either have feats ( shield mastery) have shield spikes or the bashing property. If you could just enchant it straightbout as a weapon what would be the point?
But you can enchant a shield as a weapon without any of those feats or equipment upgrades (though it is hardly ptimal).
Similarly with weapons there is two weapon defense and the defending property which has actradevoff which would be pointless if you could just enchant shield bonuses
That's why, in my games, you can only add a shield enchantment bonus to a weapon that already grants a shield bonus, and even then, only under all the same limitations as the core bonus. That way, defending and other such properties still have a place in the game.