I am preparing to run this adventure for my gaming group, but I am a little concerned about lack of availability of magic items/wondrous items and gear in general.
Reading the player's guide, I saw that one of the reasons Alchemists would be useful is that they can craft potions that would otherwise be incredibly scarce so far from civilization. It also encouraged players not to build their characters around a single piece of gear, like with weapon focus.
Have any of you guys running this campaign had problems with the lack of gear availability? Or have you come up with other solutions?
I don't really want to make items very rare because the current campaign we are running does that, and it's causing some of the players grief. Another campaign right afterward that does the same thing seems a bit unfair for player who are used to getting gear pretty often.
I could just ask people for lists of what they want and have it drop from the next mini-boss or boss, but that seems like it would take away from the immersion of role-playing. Also, one of the characters stopping in the middle of the Mwangi jungle to spend 15 days crafting an item with the crafting feats seems rather impractical.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
~Daelyn
Gear constraint is a feature of this campaign. Expect to be starved at parts. My players had great fun picking up improvised and scavanged weapons. Real quote: "it really feels like we earned everything, rather than just being handed stuff."
There's also bounty at parts: you'll be laden down with all manner of odd treasures. However, it's not nessecarily the stuff you'll want (hence the recommendation to not take Weapon Focus), but you'll certainly find it useful, especially if you're creative. There's really no towns to hawk the goods at. You use what you find.
Now, can a GM change the campaign? Sure! But as default, the gear is limited. If this isn't fun for your group, you may wish to consider one of Paizo's other great APs.
I stranded the characters without most of their gear (I set up a little game of chance, for each character to try to grab as much (hard) or as little (easy) of their gear as they would like to wager on a die roll). A selection of shipboard items, looting wrecks and improvised weapons were the rule for the first two weeks. They are very proud of the weapons they now have, as in, during each session they will bring up, I hit the creature with the sword I mended from the wreck of the Harpy, etc.. They seem to be having fun with it.
Thanks for your feedback, guys! I appreciate it. In our current campaign, the DM is limiting the gear because we're in a city pretty much constantly, and he thought it would lead to TOO much gear being available. This is making a few of the guys a little upset because they feel like stuff is being withheld "just cuz".
However, I can definitely see your point about players feeling like they earned everything. Since there is a really obvious reason in this campaign that gear is not readily available, it may be a lot easier for them to handle. If it gets to be too much for them, I can always change it up. :)
Thanks!
~Daelyn
I think working on the players expectations right from the start is a great idea.
I had a couple of players who inadvertantly discovered the shipwreck aspect of the first chapter (due to unfortunate threads entitled "Who are your castaways?"), but I asked them to keep it to themselves. The rest were surprised.
In contrast to Erik, I didn't deny them a lot of their starting equipment (other than food and water, to encourage foraging and to increase the value of those with Survival Skills), but I made it clear from the first scene of what their situation was, and there wouldn't be a lot of shopping for at least levels 1-4.
I think coming to terms with it on the first session and getting past it, really helps.
As the others mentioned, they are enjoying having to "rough it", and having the weapons they bought with their starting cash has really mitigated any complaints.
I am making them keep track of their ammo carefully.
I guess my point is that you can kinda get a feel for how much resistance you're going to get, and use that as a basis for how much of their starting gear they're going to begin with. Even if they keep their starting gear, not being able to shop for 4 levels will still feel like "roughing it".
(As a side note, I making them use a 15 point buy-in, so I'm making them rough it in a different way!)
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I just played the smuggelers shiv arch.While I can say the lack of iteam avalability was a little trying at times. Esspecely sence all i started with was a master work elven curv blade,a grappeling hook, one cure lite wounds,and the leather armer on my back.The experince was awsome. Geting by on our wits and what we captured or salvaged was great.My character shined at her moments(elvin barbarian at start then rouge)of utilizing the terrian and unieq cross abilities to over come the odds.
equipment , stuff, gear.
guys magic items are TREASURE.
this whole idea of "i want it, because its in the core rule book and has a price listed next to it" has totally ruined gaming in general over the years.
I mean if you are running a heavy magic campaign to begin with, where the door bell is magic and the taxi is a flying carpet in town, thats really cool and all, but then those campaigns give you the whole "what exactly IS the purpose of a rubber duck?" syndrome.
by and large, we do NOT buy magic items.
There ARE curio shops here and there , where we can sell things we have and buy things like potions, and scrolls.
we also get a limited chance to buy items on random generation, basically like walking into a pawn shop "what do ya got?"
we never allow item creation for characters (add 5 levels to any of the caster level requirements of those feats)
and we are ALL better off as players for those house rules.
seriously, if you get cranky because you cant buy the same old magic items you are accustomed to, over and over again, is the game really fun any more?
Meta-gaming, power gaming and everything else bad about gaming goes along with allowing PC's to open the core rulebook and begin purchasing things from an open book menu like its burger king!
and for that matter we are almost done with the second book and I have not seen an awful lot of monetary treasure yet!
and where we are now? Id be more likely to bury it like a pirate! there certainly isnt anywhere to spend it!
No need to attack anyone Pendagast, the OP stated his players were already frustrated with lack of equipment in a different campaign. There's lots of different playing styles. If that's what works for your group great, but there's no need to tell someone your way of gaming is better when they're only looking for advice to make the game more fun for them.
No need to attack anyone Pendagast, the OP stated his players were already frustrated with lack of equipment in a different campaign. There's lots of different playing styles. If that's what works for your group great, but there's no need to tell someone your way of gaming is better when they're only looking for advice to make the game more fun for them.
thats not the attack, that IS the advice.
"frustrated with lack of equipment"
equipment is like rope and back packs.
Magic items are treasure.
as i said IF you play in campaigns where magic carpets are taxi cabs etc etc it will ruin most players who come to expect free goodies all the time.
This usually comes from people who are accustomed to playing lots of PC games and the like.
IF you play ANY of the APs paizo has printed, there is a distinct lack of treasure in comparison to a high magic campaign.
the players are frustrated because they open the core rulebook and see cool items they want to have.
Dm heaps treasure on them so they can buy whatever they want (which always leads to the same min maxed christmas tree effect)
so they Advice is #1) Never let your players do that
and #2) if you already have, and then want to move to a setting where you are using pre-written material, prepare for grumpy players.
my #3) suggestion is go one way or the other...either give the players what they want (high magic campaigns) OR get used to the idea that you may loose a few players if you shift to low/standard magic settings.
We have had ALOT of problems with meta-gamy magic christmas tree laden characters absolutely ruining games for us over the years. As a result we HAVE lost players just to get our game back.
it stinks because we dont live in a place with tons of players.
but if your players are stuck on wanting to be fed every trinket of their desire in the book, and they are going to be grumpy and belligerent because they dont get what they want, what good is the gaming experience anyway.
thats basically being a 'spoiled sport'....ever played ball with kids who were always 'pissy' every time they werent winning?
thats the flavor im getting from his post about the players.
So in order to keep the players happy, hes got to add more treasure, and 100% magic item availability from the books.... nah I'm not the one attacking anybody...sounds like the DM is a hostage if you ask me.
I'm partly with Pendagast on this one, the new magical item system introduced in 3.0 has removed some of the mystery and excitement from magical items. In our Kingmaker Campaign we haven't kept any items we have found since 5th level. either our wizard just crafts them or we buy them. As a result our Kingmaker characters have highly optimized equipment.
In my Serpent skull campaign I have ruled that to make magical items (except scrolls and potions) you first need to find a recipe, study a similar item or do a lot of expensive research to make items. As a result my players have mostly avoided taking item creation feats. While I allow buying and selling items I heavily enforce the GP limit rules and makes sure the more potent items are hard to track down and even requires knowledge checks to see if the pc's have even heard of such items. When it comes to purchasing items I try to give them as much flavor as possible to avoid giving out just another +1 longsword. Instead they might track down a blade used to slay a white lion who has been enchanted by a mighty shaman of the Ujumi tribe or something like that.
As for the question asked by the OP, there are plenty of opportunities of getting items later on. In part two you get to visit two major cities and later on you can rely on a large base camp with regular caravans bringing new supplies every now and then.
I understand where Pendagast is coming from.
I kind of feel the same way. The Magic Item Trade of 3.x ruined a good part of the game for me. In 2e I had the best time as a DM designing cool magical items with unusual abilities, a elaborate description and a rich history.
Today the players would just shrug and sell the damn thing to buy the stuff on their magical optimization shopping list that they create as character concept at level 1.
If they don't have x money on level y to buy z their whole concept will fall apart.
Very frustrating at times.
But it is in no way a problem of the OP, it is the problem of 3.x
Kudos to you, Pendagast, and to your group if you managed to avoid this.
The named magical stuff should be big-time IMO. Stuff beyond the 50k mark and whatnot.
Pathfinder is HIGH MAGIC, people. Anything less than the 5-10k mark is pretty much common fare for people with character levels. Sure, the backwater ignorant peasant will think a magic item is all "Ooooh! Aaaah!" but he will give the same reaction to the cleric spouting infinite water from his hands by channeling the LEAST of his tricks, imbued unto him by the GODS.
When I play a character who can bend time and space with less effort than it takes me to write this post, I think it silly that the cheap +1 stuff should be "Oooh! Aaah" stuff for ME.
Compare it to real life technology. We are awed by virtual intelligence, nanotechnology and artificial hearts. Comparable, who the heck is awed by a toaster, calculator or a radio these days?
And all this IS already supported in the existing mechanics of the game, if you enforce them. Virtually no town has a GP limit where you can buy the REAL big hitting items. You can't go _buy_ the holy avenger, the staff of power or really anything on the Major Magic Item table.
@aeglos: You also remember that 2e had NO sense of balance between party members (a str17 fighter vs one with 18, rolling 91+ on the exceptional strength table meant the one with ONE point higher strength had more than twice the bonuses) or party/encounter, and that there were no utterly pointless cheap items there compared to 3.X/Pathfinder. Compare the Gauntlets of Ogre Power to Belt of Strength +2. A non-fighter, or even a fighter with less than 18/XX str will gain a +3 hit and +6 damage bonus. Sword +4 is sweet in pathfinder. In 2ed, it allowed you to defeat the balor, whom otherwise took NO damage from physical attacks.
@Pendragast: I think Kingmaker has plenty of decent items, and will keep the players at level-appropriate wealth. Sure, lots of it is crap, but the AP tells you to change items to similar and suitable gear for the players, so the fighter don't get to feel that special feeling of not getting any use of his Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Greater Focus, Greater Specialization feats because he chose longsword, and the super-special chocolate-fudge awesome weapon of plot-ness is a bastard sword.
I am the GM for the Kingmaker campain Mortagon spoke of, and I don't really have "problems" with people being too blinged out. Sure, they laugh at DR, and I need to roll 15+ even with dedicated combat monsters of equal, or even +1-3 CR to hit the frontliners, and said monsters go down in a round usually, bosses in 2. The fighter can solo bosses if I don't tweak them, and so on. But that used to be more due to perfect OoC hivemind planning without any means of mental communication, me allowing 3.X material, and to a lesser extent that we made 25 point buy characters since the players were so gung-ho about making characters even before I knew the first thing about the campain, much less having seen part 1. (Protip for GMs considering running Kingmaker with 25 point buy; DON'T. 20 is plenty, if you run it as-is, even 15 will make do if your players aren't scared of a challenge at some tight spots).
But hey, if that is what they want, who am I to complain? After all, we play these games for fun, and to get away from the tedium and insurmountable obstacles that annoy us in real life. Of course, this is because I kinda share their motivations... dear GODS how I hate tedium in games.
Players too powerful? Add 10-30% more HP, add +2 or so to all statistics and don't raise the CR. And if they are meta-playing more than you like, tell them that you don't want any of that in your game. If they are not reasonable adults, meta harder than the players, or foil their meta-plots intentionally by fudging. Nothing more to it. Easiest thing for a GM to do is "winning".
I understand where Pendagast is coming from.
I kind of feel the same way. The Magic Item Trade of 3.x ruined a good part of the game for me. In 2e I had the best time as a DM designing cool magical items with unusual abilities, a elaborate description and a rich history.
Today the players would just shrug and sell the damn thing to buy the stuff on their magical optimization shopping list that they create as character concept at level 1.
If they don't have x money on level y to buy z their whole concept will fall apart.
Very frustrating at times.But it is in no way a problem of the OP, it is the problem of 3.x
Kudos to you, Pendagast, and to your group if you managed to avoid this.
Remember when:
to get magic items, you killed the monster, looked up his treasure type (say it was Q) cross referenced it and it said 1 major and 3 minor items (or something like that) then you rolled on the tables and you got silly stuff like : dagger +1, +2 vs. magic users?
that was fun!
IT always seemed like you got the lycanthrope bane weapon right from the werewolf lords treasure 5 minutes after killing him!
"Well this will come in handy now that Ive purged the land of all the werewolves!"
While i thought it was funny, other players got ticked, and i think thats what led to the whole "magic shop" phenomenon.
I also think alot more people are willing to be DMs these days (they used to be far and wide), gone are the days where one in ten RPGers even OWNED a DMG.
infact the DM used to be the guy who owned any of the books, players NEVER had books or MAYBE a players handbook.
now dont get me wrong i love the core rulebook and everything thats in there all together.... but having that stuff printed in the same book as character generation really gives people (especially new players who are mostly acquainted with anime and computer games) that that stuff is PART of character generation.
Every dang computer game ive ever played has that magic shop where you just point and click, trade this in for that thing collect more gold to buy the better optimized weapon.
Dont get me wrong on this either i cant WAIT until the release of diablo 3 im going to go right out there and buy it on day one.
BUT, thats not what DnD/Pathfinder is.
So what im saying is dont let your players bring final fantasy to your gaming table.
The best, number one way to start this? play a NO magic item campaign.
"Eeeek" everyone goes running.
Try it.
But my fighter can't hit that incorporeal creature because it has no magic sword.... there ARE still all the spells in the game, i said NO magic ITEMS.
suddenly paladins bonded weapon is more useful, the druids magic fang is a must have spell, and fighters are hoping the spell casters picked up magic weapon spells for the day.
as the game goes on, let things like potions and scrolls seep in around 5th level or so.
there will be some bemoaning at first. some players might not play anymore, but this is how yu get your gaming table back!
But the people who really want to play are going to start having a blast.
Think about all the roleplaying you will get done without everyones noses in the magic items section looking for their next acquisition!
what would it be like to go to a town where the first stop is NOT the magic shop!
when players hit 8th, send them on some kinda of scurry quest after a rumor of a dodgey magic sword (or whatever) they fight there way through all the denizens and guardians retrieve the goody (lets say the +2 flaming bastard sword...by the way ALWAYS make it something they need to burn a feat or gain a level to use) and voila! it's cursed in some way!
sure sure it's a +2 magic flaming sword (and i dont mean make it -2 when it seemed to be +2) but it's heat aura causes everyone in 10 feet to take 1 point of non lethal damage and sets things like unprotected scrolls alight (dang it we just got scrolls two levels ago!) the character always has a singed, burnt smell about him, has to buy new cloaks, and maybe when he rolled a one on his attack he singed his eyebrows off, resulting in 1 charisma damage.
stuff like that... he might not whip out the flaming sword on every fight, it might stay sealed in the scabbard, ore he might have a blast with this super hot new magic item!
Also the above mentioned weapon could be offset with things like the endurance feat, endure elements spell, protection from fire spells.
either way the party has to spend resources to realize the benefits of the item in the form of spells or feats or even skills! example:
give the flaming effect an activation number like a disable device or use magic device roll.
this is cool because that way maybe it is just a +2 sword most of the time.
have the character make random checks (maybe even untrained if he doesnt have the skills as he activates it by accident) but eventually he'll roll that 19 or 20, and poof! the blade lights up, singes his eyebrows, sets the scrolls on fire and some near by trees and they dont even know why or what happened!
after a while you will see that character (whos probably a fighter) take skill ranks in use magic device or disable device, or knowledge planes or whatever the trigger skill is to take better control and gain more use of the weapon!
ever seen a 7th level half orc fighter with ranks in use magic device? you can make it happen!
now back to the point.
There will be some players who are thinking "jerk" or getting all grumbly because you are 'messing with them' or playing keep away with the cool powers.
There are some parties that will give the magic flaming bastard sword on pain in the neckness to the rogue because he can handle it better!
there will be some parties who want to get rid of it by selling it,
always make this hard!...remember magic items arent common, so people with 12,000 gold to drop on a magic sword arent common either.
"you say it flames, eh?" hmmmmm proove it!
if the players havent spent the feats, skill ranks or time to sue the item, they will be hard pressed to show it off, if the have spent the feats and skill ranks why be getting rid of it?
Once they try to sell it, and probably unsuccessfully (unless they just want to dump it for 300 gold) word gets out they have it (the curse! its spreading)
and every house fire, or unexplained firey mishap starts getting blamed on them.
"hey my soups burnt!" "Im sorry sir, but the other patrons with the flaming sword over there must have caused your soup to be burnt"
stupid stuff like that.
its flavor, its funny , it gives focus on the magic weapon.
By the way, once you do give out the pain in the neck magic item...dont make it a +1 dagger, just totally jump over that stuff and go for the +2 flaming bastard sword, the mace of disruption or the figurine of wondrous power.... +1 is for people who are climbing the number crunching ladder.
If you are going to give out a magic item that is a pain in the butt to use it better be worth the feats and skills and spells to make it work.
it shouldnt be able to be used (easily) by any johnny off the street that picks it up and it should be alot of fun.
one more thing...what about all the amulets of natural armor, and cloaks of protection or resistance you need at higher levels?? i mean look at some of those monsters out there!
for that i say there are plenty of good spells that do the same things.
your NPC baddies wont have the items either.
(never never NEVER give out magic items that takes away from a PC's spells or abilites being rendered secondary)
there WILL end of being those "monsters that hit everything" or his AC is too high, etc etc and as DM you may need to adjust those numbers slightly, but those monsters ARE supposed to be tough and if you think about it there are spells and hexes that can bring those things in line, the more the PCs can do off their character sheet and the less they need to run to the magic store the better the game will be.
one more thing: there maybe a time when the monster is unbeatable without item (ie that adamantite only DR is killing us!)...well you can always make such a legendary item and find out a way to let the PC's know it exists so they can quest for said item, retrieve it and then use it to slay the baddy!
yay! accomplishment not received from magic mart!
by the way....the magic adamantite dwarf AX +3 (again no dwarf fighter? need a feat!) should be soooooo legendary that all the bad guys who used to enjoy the fact that they were near invulnerable with their DR? have a nasty way of finding your heroes and challenging them, simply because they have the item (so of course, its cursed.)
the pendagast school of yin and yang magic items.
Also... if you do give out magic items so other players dont feel left out (obviously not everyone is going to get the big bad magic weapon) give out defensive items... like dwarven breastplate, let someone enjoy the 1 or 2 DR....
or boots of the winterlands... things like that..
let them have something...eventually.... just not an item for every slot.
also limited use items are always good to appease someone to amke them feel they got something.
thakks for listening to the advice/rant.
The named magical stuff should be big-time IMO. Stuff beyond the 50k mark and whatnot.
Pathfinder is HIGH MAGIC, people. Anything less than the 5-10k mark is pretty much common fare for people with character levels. Sure, the backwater ignorant peasant will think a magic item is all "Ooooh! Aaaah!" but he will give the same reaction to the cleric spouting infinite water from his hands by channeling the LEAST of his tricks, imbued unto him by the GODS.
@Pendragast: I think Kingmaker has plenty of decent items, and will keep the players at level-appropriate wealth. Sure, lots of it is crap, but the AP tells you to change items to similar and suitable gear for the players, so the fighter don't get to feel that special feeling of not...
I dont think most of the APs give out enough to consider it a "High Magic" campaign.
I consider high magic as everyone has every slot filled with something and they are constantly toiling to upgrade what they have in the slots.There simply isnt enough loot in the APs to accomplish this.
I recall there being alot of gold to kick around in second darkness... but your right if you stick to the GP limits of the cities and keeping realistically how much gold you can actually carry around, yea there is no way to BUY the holy avenger. so using existing rules and not just "going to the bath room and letting the players spend their gold with the open book method"
keeps a cap on alot of stuff.
as far as the chocolate fudge super cool magic item, it find it stupid that the party fighter would have simply, coincidentally had a feat tree that coincides perfectly with the newly found magic weapon.
one level, and a feat and you can use what essentially is and extremely powerful magic item that grows as you use it (the best kind)
and you still have Reason to use whatever it is that you have the feat tree in.
but for arguements sake.... lets say this was some huge deal to the players.... you can always arrange to have some mystic oracle help perform a ritual that if the fighter levels, spends a feat to get the exotic WP, and forfeits his next feat ( a blank level) then he can re-allocate all his previous feats to this weapon.... but first he must find the rare poisonous frog with one glass eye, and return this eye to the oracle for the prerequisite material component to make the ritual work.
Either way the magic item comes with sacrifices and hard work, and isn't simply a cookie the player designs his character around having because of the "wealth by level" power curve.
The named magical stuff should be big-time IMO. Stuff beyond the 50k mark and whatnot.
Pathfinder is HIGH MAGIC, people. Anything less than the 5-10k mark is pretty much common fare for people with character levels. Sure, the backwater ignorant peasant will think a magic item is all "Ooooh! Aaaah!" but he will give the same reaction to the cleric spouting infinite water from his hands by channeling the LEAST of his tricks, imbued unto him by the GODS.
@Pendragast: I think Kingmaker has plenty of decent items, and will keep the players at level-appropriate wealth. Sure, lots of it is crap, but the AP tells you to change items to similar and suitable gear for the players, so the fighter don't get to feel that special feeling of not...
I dont think most of the APs give out enough to consider it a "High Magic" campaign.
I consider high magic as everyone has every slot filled with something and they are constantly toiling to upgrade what they have in the slots.There simply isnt enough loot in the APs to accomplish this.
This is true. If they had to rely on what they found, even if I tweaked things so they became useful, they would be far from that kind of high magic.
I was talking about not making more hullabaloo around +1 crap than it is warranted. I mean, the local Commoner5 weaver can make half a dozen Cloaks of Resistance +1 easy as pie in a week with the right feats, and she could take the Sunday off. (Master Craftsman, Craft Wondrous, 2 open for Skill Focus and another for whatever she feels like)
I recall there being alot of gold to kick around in second darkness... but your right if you stick to the GP limits of the cities and keeping realistically how much gold you can actually carry around, yea there is no way to BUY the holy avenger. so using existing rules and not just "going to the bath room and letting the players spend their gold with the open book method"
keeps a cap on alot of stuff.as far as the chocolate fudge super cool magic item, it find it stupid that the party fighter would have simply, coincidentally had a feat tree that coincides perfectly with the newly found magic weapon.
one level, and a feat and you can use what essentially is and extremely powerful magic item that grows as you use it (the best kind)
and you still have Reason to use whatever it is that you have the feat tree in.
Not saying you do this for every item, or even the bulk of them. Just for the ones you kinda NEED to use in order to advance the plot.
I have given out tons of hammers, polearms, crossbows, daggers, staves, flails, not-longsword swords and whatnot across any given campain. Sure, when you have a crafting wizard on board, and all the time in the multiverse (I'm looking at you, kingmaker), I can give out +4 Flaming Nutcrackers and they will still come out of it as if I had given out a +5 sword of ANY combination that the players want. Or any other item totaling at the same sum.
As for the flavor; Sure, I love making fluff and such for stuff that actually deserves it, because that makes sense. One doesn't just MAKE a +4 Keen Defending Cold Iron Scimitar of Speed, there is SOMETHING to the history of it. And I love making such a magnificent piece of weaponry have a place in the world............. until they pawn it to make a +4 Str/Dex/Con belt for the fighter, some minor stuff to give the rogue +5 to essential skills, and a Hat of even more intelligence for the Wizard. *sigh*
thats what im talking about right there!
seriously who would have enough gold on hand to buy a +4 cold scimitar of defending speed from you?
thats like walking into a pawn shop and trying to get rid of an original, all matching numbers WW2 torpedo bomber, signed by the pilot who happened to be a former US president, and saying "hey what will you give me for this"
they simply cant take it off your hands.... too expensive... im mean if you want to take a big hit they could probably give you 30 thou for the plane...
but if you wanted to sell the +4 super scimitar for enough gold to buy ONE of the items the were looking for.... well then ok.
I just wouldnt make it easy to move something that expensive.
@aeglos: You also remember that 2e had NO sense of balance between party members (a str17 fighter vs one with 18, rolling 91+ on the exceptional strength table meant the one with ONE point higher strength had more than twice the bonuses) or party/encounter, and that there were no utterly pointless cheap items there compared to 3.X/Pathfinder. Compare the Gauntlets of Ogre Power to Belt of Strength +2. A non-fighter, or even a fighter with less than 18/XX str will gain a +3 hit and +6 damage bonus. Sword +4 is sweet in pathfinder. In 2ed, it allowed you to defeat the balor, whom otherwise took NO damage from physical attacks.
Of course you are right about the rules. I certanly don't miss calculating THACO.
But, at least my groups, played a much more story driffen game back then, now it is all about optimisation and rulesit's the the storytelling and creativity I miss.
But, at least my groups, played a much more story driffen game back then, now it is all about optimisation and rules
it's the the storytelling and creativity I miss.
Now that is something I can stand behind and support. Not caring about balance opens up for some unbalanced solutions. "Who cares if the rogue just did something that takes a lv6 wizard spell to do, he was clever!" is replaced with "Who cares how clever the rogue was, it takes a level 6 wizard spell to do that!"
Certainly, I am all for not stepping on each others toes and making another party member feel inferior (I am looking at YOU, 3.X casters), but I feel it has been taken too far in that direction now. Same with items. Forcefully trying to recreate the mystery and uniqueness of older editions is going to be met with failure when the game not only expects you to have at least basic gear, but REQUIRES you to have it in order to stand a fighting chance.
But all is not lost. Want players to CARE about the backstory of an item? Make it worth their while!
Scenario: You're running a game in the north, and put a +2 Greataxe out there. Allow the knowledge monkey to make a passable check that allows him to learn that the Jagged Axe of Arzan Thruul has fallen dormant since the Battle of Cromgar's Cairn, and that the legend says it can be awakened by bathing it in the frozen waters in the grove of it's maker, the long dead frost-druid Ulfreyd.
Voila, story time, and if you care to do so, it gains the Frost (/Frost Burst) quality. Not game-breaking but worth the schlep. Especially if you can make it coincide with the story, like hinting that the party druid might find the Bear-Cloak of Ulfreyd that will empower his bear-themed wild shape powers and the sorcerer might learn a secret of frost, allowing him to gain a spell known at 2 levels lower than his highest spell.
Items and powers gained might be smalltime, but they will remember this stuff.
"assumed party wealth" broke the game.
"assumed party wealth" broke the game.
Not so much the game as the flavor. When you enforce balance for ease of use, then much of the leeway you had in olden days is gone.
Kinda like how modern society has abolished trade of goods, and everything is done with moneys, strictly enforced with fees for services in order to make life "easier", when it in truth enslaves us to a system that cannot be circumvented.
Just like regular magic in-game. Earlier, casting fireball or lightningbolt was not something you did carelessly. If the area could not accomodate the fireball, it expanded into unpredictable areas. The lightningbolt bounced around and could easily kill the caster itself if he was careless.
Now, magic is more reliable than a sword, you cannot use a spell creatively, and a caster CANNOT suffer ill consequences of a spell unless it is a feature of the encounter (wild magic etc) or you use a third party system for fumbles (Critical Fumble Deck).
Buuuut, derails aside. Serpent Skull part 1 is starvation, but in retrospect, it seems written in a manner that allows most any group to survive with starting gear. We did not have much trouble, and we were far from optimized. Only thing in our favor was 20 point buy instead of 15.
After part 1, you get to shop freely. Which is a huge relief for melee combatants who are NOT overly happy about scale mail at lv 4 :P
Remember when:
to get magic items, you killed the monster, looked up his treasure type (say it was Q) cross referenced it and it said 1 major and 3 minor items (or something like that) then you rolled on the tables and you got silly stuff like : dagger +1, +2 vs. magic users?
Yes, and I also remember players moping when one PC had a Girdle of Stone Giant Strength and another PC was stuck with a Trident of Fish Command.
The desire to have cool equipment didn't originate with 3E D&D. Remember the term "Monty Haul campaign"?
Remember when:
to get magic items, you killed the monster, looked up his treasure type (say it was Q) cross referenced it and it said 1 major and 3 minor items (or something like that) then you rolled on the tables and you got silly stuff like : dagger +1, +2 vs. magic users?
Yes, and I also remember players moping when one PC had a Girdle of Stone Giant Strength and another PC was stuck with a Trident of Fish Command.
The desire to have cool equipment didn't originate with 3E D&D. Remember the term "Monty Haul campaign"?
Trident of fish command, never got one of those!
course i never got a girdle of stone giant strength either.
buying your favorite magic item (in some case player by the same stuff over and over again) isnt any better than a goofy roll that gives you a staff of power.
threadjack:
buying your favorite magic item (in some case player by the same stuff over and over again) isnt any better than a goofy roll that gives you a staff of power.
What do you mean by "isn't any better"? I can certainly tell you that the Trident of Fish Command guy would have given his eyeteeth for the opportunity to swap it for his favourite magic item.
threadjack:** spoiler omitted **
if you can always get your favorite magic item, it spoils the feeling of adventure and discovery. and the item rare or interesting anymore, its a must have
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Pendagast wrote:
if you can always get your favorite magic item, it spoils the feeling of adventure and discovery. and the item rare or interesting anymore, its a must have
I fully agree with this point. Some or even many things are to common
or easy to get. Some things should be reserved for the ancent relic and family herlome boxes.
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A lot of this depends on your groups expectations and how well a gm manages throw appropriate stuffs down
I tend to let the players buy the more generic stuff and throw down some better quirky items for them at the same time. So they get a snake themed scaly vest which gives a stat boost to dex, natural armor, and poison resistance. They canu certainly unload it but they won't get full value for it and it has that unique feel that found treeasue has. We took this from that one rogue who nearly killed us all!
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threadjack:** spoiler omitted **if you can always get your favorite magic item, it spoils the feeling of adventure and discovery. and the item rare or interesting anymore, its a must have
*sigh* Yes, because everyone has to play the same way or they're doing it wrong. I will never get that mindset.
Now, to be honest, I prefer limiting magic items, but my players really enjoy getting them. So, I bend more to suit their desires, and you know what? It hasn't spoiled anything for us. But yeah, whatever. I'm a dissenting opinion so I'm probably wrong.
getting magic items is nice, but buying them at a thrift store ruins getting them.
If a +1 ring of protection is easily buyable, because its common, it ceases to be 'treasure'. Common items are treasure. It's not playing style its perception. IF YOUR players see items as "gear" and are disgruntled if they dont get what they want/expect, and start pointing out they are behind the WBL power curve, those are clear signs they dont think of the items as treasure either, they think of them as "gear" that they entitled to.
That has been my point all along. NOT what I think, but what other players are being disgruntled about.
I have been merely pointing out the items are supposed to be treasure not "gear", and the fact that they can be bought or made with ease is what brought about the degradation of the items and the experience, which is why the players have become disgruntled when they dont get their "gear".
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getting magic items is nice, but buying them at a thrift store ruins getting them.
I appreciate what you are saying but... I also appreciate that players enjoy tweaking and customizing their character. If you limit options to found treasure only you rob them of some of that ability.
There is no 'one true way', for some groups the 'joy' of discovery works great and they love picking up found treasure. In many groups the whole treasure thing is abstract and players are just given a set amount of gold they can use for character upgrades. Both ways are fun in their own ways, I tend to walk a middle ground myself and my players seem to enjoy that as well.
@Pendragast: Low level items are common enough, they are called "minor items", can be crafted by low-level NPCs sinking two feats towards it, and available for sale at almost any given city. That (in my mind) disqualifies it from being "treasure" in the sense that it should inspire awe and glee. It's the stuff that barely even earn a side-note introduction as a magical item in the fantasy novels. Just a "His sword was of exceptional quality and never lost it's edge, being crafted by the dwarven smiths of Garn-Mithras", who slapped a +1 keen enchantment on it.
I have played somewhere around 5-6 paladins or so, and never had a holy avenger. In any edition. Had a pseudo avenger in 2ed (the lesser holy swords in the paladin book). Currently playing one, and I really doubt I will get one this time either. And I am fine with that. My main weapon already is +1, enchanted by a cleric we saved earlier as thanks.
And there is my point: Unless it is BIG, who cares? Getting decked out in at least basic gear as a combatant is one of the few ways you can even begin to clear the gaping chasm of power between you and the casters.
Also, remember the items of 2ed? They were not only flavorful, they were powerful. Defending sword? Yeah, it's +4 base. Flaming sword was +3, up to +6 against the right foes. Frost sword both hurt fire monsters like crazy, and protected you. And then look at the oldschool belts of strength. Oh lawdy.
If I re-made my current paladin to 2ed, and kept his stats (Str16), and I found even the crappiest belt back then (19), my hit modifier would increase by 3, and my damage by 7. That is HUGE. I am _NOT_ going to be all "kyaaa!" over a current edition's crappiest belt (+2) that makes a up an overall 5% increased chance to hit difference from my innate ability. Sorry.
And I don't even play the inane online grind-games that parade as RPGs, which I blame for a lot of the degradation of the R and the P in the abbreviation.
Also, remember the items of 2ed? They were not only flavorful, they were powerful. Defending sword? Yeah, it's +4 base. Flaming sword was +3, up to +6 against the right foes. Frost sword both hurt fire monsters like crazy, and protected you. And then look at the oldschool belts of strength. Oh lawdy.
Of course you're remembering the powerful items and forgetting about the clutter, like tridents of warning or suits of +3 padded armor. That's because the powerful items were cool, and the other stuff was dull (notwithstanding the fact that it's still rare and magical).
Of course you're remembering the powerful items and forgetting about the clutter, like tridents of warning or suits of +3 padded armor. That's because the powerful items were cool, and the other stuff was dull (notwithstanding the fact that it's still rare and magical).
Also, remember the items of 2ed? They were not only flavorful, they were powerful. Defending sword? Yeah, it's +4 base. Flaming sword was +3, up to +6 against the right foes. Frost sword both hurt fire monsters like crazy, and protected you. And then look at the oldschool belts of strength. Oh lawdy.
Also, in 2e, proper spellcasters could barely make anything, and even making a potion was a hassle. Now, a commoner of sufficient level and with the right feats can make all but spell-completion items. If he somehow was able to get his skill high enough, and get his hands on the materials, a commoner can make the holy avenger, theoretically.
I think this difference alone speaks volumes.
And yes, there was a lot of clutter in 2e as well. But the cool stuff was actually COOL.
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And there is my point: Unless it is BIG, who cares? Getting decked out in at least basic gear as a combatant is one of the few ways you can even begin to clear the gaping chasm of power between you and the casters.
Really? thats been my point all along too...
Who cares if you don't have a +1 sword, or a +1 ring or protection, there are spells in the party that easily mimic those effects when needed.
+1 really 'tweaks' a character? thats really weak or reaching....
I think you and I can agree, only medium/major items are of any consequence.
when you get as far as getting something that is keen or flaming, then you are talking about having a "magic item"
If your players are griping because they dont have some doofy minor ring for each finger and they are third level in there isnt something in every slot....
well nuff said.
As for the question asked by the OP, there are plenty of opportunities of getting items later on. In part two you get to visit two major cities and later on you can rely on a large base camp with regular caravans bringing new supplies every now and then.
Mortagon,
Thanks for the info on later on in the campaign! That was what I was most concerned about. I wasn't hugely concerned with the first 4 levels on the island because you wouldn't expect your whole party to have magic weapons or armor by this point. You can drop masterwork studded leather armor and your rogue is happy, a masterwork longsword and your fighter is thrilled. After that, though, people have character concepts that random magic items don't always fit. I was afraid that once the PCs went off into the jungle, there was no buying or selling ever again. That would seriously inhibit my players' styles. But since there is a base camp later on, that alleviates some of my fears. Thanks!
~Daelyn