Hello all. I've made a witch for a campaign based on daemon encounters. Witch is human. Currently knows 5 O-lvl spells (bonus for human) and then 9 1st-lvl spells (4 INT mod = 4 spells, + 3 for fox, + 2 for 2nd lvl), then the Patron spell at lvl 2, making a total of 10 1st-lvl spells. Hexes are Evil Eye, Charm, and Brew potion (due to extra hex feat). Feats are Extra hex and Spell Concentration (+4 concentration).
Thing is, I'm unsure how my witch will do against daemons. Most attacks are will-saved, and the mephits we faught get +3 to will, which caused me to only get 2 mephits with 3 tries with Evil Eye Hex (only -2 to something ,which is strong to me, yet weak in the eyes of the rogue who needs flanking to do any dmg XD).
I guess what I'm trying to say is, are there any good Witch builds against daemons? If so, please reply. Thank you for any help given.
Oh, and familiar is a scorpion.
Sorry for this, but Bump.
On a mobile devise, so my response will be brief - if you're having trouble getting Evil Eye to stick, remember that it lasts for one round even if the target succeeds on their save. You might consider Cackle as a hex - it will let you extend your Evil Eye without allowing for a save.
A bump after less than am hour? Have a little patience ;)
Anyway, I'm not an expert at fighting demons, but their will save shouldn't bother you too much. Evil eye affects them even if they save. Sure, it lasts only one round, but that's why most witches take cackle early. Use it to lower their saves, then hit them with something really nasty in the next round - like misfortune!
Once they are helpless, add stuff like glitterdust or stinking cloud to really mess them up. Oh, and if you glitterdust them, they are blind, lose their Dex bonus and your rogue buddy gets free sneak attacks without the need for any flanking. Did that with my sorceress on Monday and our rogue was more than happy :D
Well...impatience is hereditary in my family, though I can actually control it well ^ ^'''. Anywho Death: I know, and now I finally register it XD.
And Blave, that does sound good, but here's the thing. No glitterdust at 2nd lvl so far, nor stink cloud. Sound advice though.
Well, I could rid Brew Potion for my extra hex to be for crackle.
Now, new thing. What equip is good? I know I cant take Arcane training yet, so light armor = death atm w/ 10-15% failure. I currently have a morningstar on a weapon sling, two javelins on the back, and 20 darts in a pouch. I dont need to worry bout weight (15 STR), and I never had a cauldron with me since their freakishly heavy. Now, off the bat, do these weapons sound reasonable for a witch to have?
Well, you are a level 2 arcane caster. You are not expected to be super powerful. Not yet, Anyway. Having 2 out of 3 hexes that are no good in combat, doesn't help either. If you care about being useful in combat, you should really switch out both. It's totally reasonable to have evil eye, cackle and misfortune by level two. Maybe even slumber (allowing the rogue to deliver fatal coup de graces) but the duration is too short at that level for my liking.
As for weapons, I'd get a longspear to keep enemies at bay. You do NOT want to be in melee as a witch. Never ever. In fact, unless you want to become an eldritch knight, a strength of 15 is kinda wasted. And don't go for arcane armor training either. Even with light armor you WILL die if foes get close. Witches lack pretty much all kinds of defensive spells that allow Mages to survive.
That's why witches don't attack. Not even with ranged weapons if they can help it. Your job is casting spells, using hexes and cackling madly.
Witches don't kill things, they just make them easier to kill.
Hmm...great point. Okay, I'll get a boar spear (+2 AC when braced). And I think I'll change to crackle with my extra hex, and indefinitely switch to misfortune from Charm. Other than that, I guess I'm good. Here are my spells if any suggestions wanna be made.
0-LVL: Daze, Mending, Dancing Lights, Spark, Bleed.
1st-LVL: Mage Armor, Enfeeblement Ray, Burning Hands, Hypnotism, Command, Enlarge Person, Cure Light Wounds, Inflict Light wounds.
PATRON SPELL(S): Well, still debating on shadow or Transformation, maybe even Trickery.
romuken wrote: Hmm...great point. Okay, I'll get a boar spear (+2 AC when braced). And I think I'll change to crackle with my extra hex, and indefinitely switch to misfortune from Charm. Sounds good. Should really improve your performance in combat. Just always remember that you are there to hinder the enemies, not to kill them.
Quote: 0-LVL: Daze, Mending, Dancing Lights, Spark, Bleed. Weird choices. Especially bleed, which is probably the worst spell there is.
Anyway, a witch gets ALL cantrips at level 1 so you only need to choose which to memories each day.
Quote: 1st-LVL: Mage Armor, Enfeeblement Ray, Burning Hands, Hypnotism, Command, Enlarge Person, Cure Light Wounds, Inflict Light wounds. Not quite my choices, but solid.
Quote: PATRON SPELL(S): Well, still debating on shadow or Transformation, maybe even Trickery. Well since I'm still undecided on my own patron (see my witch thread) I can't really help you here...
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
I think with what you are facing Blave and Deathtrap gave you good advice.
As for Patron Transformation is neat and fun but since you should avoid melee it is less useful. Trickery has Mirror Image which is a good defensive spell. Shadow is I think over all is more useful. It depends a lot on the type of campaign and how combat heavy it is or you want to focus.
romuken wrote: Link it? Link what? My witch topic? Shouldn't be hard to find seeing how it's like 2 topics below yours at the moment, but anyhow: Here the LINK.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
romuken wrote: Link it? Page 67 of the APG under witches familiar.
Quote: A witch’s familiar begins play storing all of the 0-level witch spells plus three 1stlevel spells of the witch’s choice. Did you mean his topic or the 0 level spells? I am now unsure which one you meant.
I meant the thread, Dark. And thanks for the tip. ^ ^
romuken wrote: Hmm...great point. Okay, I'll get a boar spear (+2 AC when braced). And I think I'll change to crackle with my extra hex, and indefinitely switch to misfortune from Charm. Other than that, I guess I'm good. Here are my spells if any suggestions wanna be made.
0-LVL: Daze, Mending, Dancing Lights, Spark, Bleed.
1st-LVL: Mage Armor, Enfeeblement Ray, Burning Hands, Hypnotism, Command, Enlarge Person, Cure Light Wounds, Inflict Light wounds.
PATRON SPELL(S): Well, still debating on shadow or Transformation, maybe even Trickery.
For your spells, you might want to change some. As has been mentioned, you start with all 0-level spells. For your 1st level spells, you might try: Cause Fear, Enlarge Person, Unseen Servant, and Beguiling Gift. The last two really depend on your creativity, but can yield surprisingly good results. Also - I don't think Witches get Command? I thought it was a Cleric only spell.
I also agree that Shadow is a very good patron to take - gives lots of flexibility.
Edit: Take a look at Treantmonk's Wizard guide. It doesn't totally correlate with Witches, since we get some different spells... But, still some good analysis.
Oh yes witches get command!
It is one of my favorites and very witch-like.....
The Cause Fear spell I will take, DeathTrap. However, I have two questions. Why take Unseen Servant if it only does minor things, like carry 20 lbs, or drag 100? Also, why Beguiling gift?
And yes, command is indeed a great spell to have Barnabus XD.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Beguiling Gift is just such a iconic witch thing to do. Plus it can be pretty useful at time. Someone using a 2-H sword? give them a hat, for two turns they can't use the weapon. First they accept the gift and have one hand with it, then the next round they have to use the item like put on the hat. Or give them a vial of poison or a cursed magic item. I can think of a large number of things to use it with.
You do give a good point Dark. I guess it could go well. Thing is, would Spell pouch allow me to get the materials for poison? I mean, I can switch out Combat Casting with an extra hex to get Cauldron easily, just the matter of where to get materials since the DM can use Survival instead of Knowledge (Nature) to see if I can get the ingredients.
...Then again, Nature is made for those checks, right?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
As for the poison, it shouldn't be that hard to get some minor poisons. I mean milk a snake if you have to. Once you get a bit higher level you should be able to either make or buy better poisons. Better really there is just a lot you can do with this spell, it just takes being creative. :)
That is true. Truely, I was gonna use Charm (Hex), then hypno to make the strongest out of a group of enemies kill the weaklings, therefore "proving" that he deserves my attention...though the poison thing sounds waaay better now I think about it more. Plus, I can just say my witch made them before meeting the party...Eh, that works. Thanks Dark!
Aaand one thing too. It's about the whole spell thing. Does the witch get the ability to cast whatever spells her familiar knows? Or only an amount that is equal to the # of spells that is able to be cast?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Your welcome.
Yes a witch can cast any spell their familiar knows. Basically their familiar is just like a wizards spell book in that regard. So at 2nd level you can memorize 2 spells plus any bonus from a high int. You familiar might know any number of spells though. Hopefully that answers your question assuming I understood your question correctly. :)
I believe so. So, put simply, the witch uses the Spell Selection of a wizard, but can cast any one without having to memorize them, correct? Or is it like the wizard, in that they have to memorize the amount of spells equal to their spells per day?
romuken wrote: I believe so. So, put simply, the witch uses the Spell Selection of a wizard, but can cast any one without having to memorize them, correct? Or is it like the wizard, in that they have to memorize the amount of spells equal to their spells per day? They do have to memorize spells, like a wizard. They just use a different spell list and a different way to store their spells.
I use manacles with a lock for beguiling gift....
It is like "Here handcuff yourself!"
check with your DM to see, we assume that is what would happen.
...That actually works. Just thought of a way to OP devils XD. Thanks evil eye and beguiling gift XD
I don't think the manacles trick would work, just like the victim wouldn't be compelled to stab himself with a gifted dagger. All of the examples given in the spell description imply at least a plausible use for a given item. Likely result with manacles would be the other guy attempting to subdue and use them on an opponent. That might still make life easier for you (forcing a rogue to grapple your fighter, for example).
now, gifting the bad guy a sharp rock to use instead of his greataxe...
Are you reading the spell?
You offer an object to an adjacent creature, and entice it into using or consuming the proffered item. If the target fails its Will save, it immediately takes the offered object, dropping an already held object if necessary. On its next turn, it consumes or dons the object, as appropriate for the item in question. For example, an apple would be eaten, a potion consumed, a ring put on a finger, and a sword wielded in a free hand. If the target is physically unable to accept the object, the spell fails. The subject is under no obligation to continue consuming or using the item once the spell's duration has expired, although it may find a cursed item difficult to be rid of.
This would be most similar to putting on a ring therefore "donning the manacles would be the result of the spell"....
It takes a severe twist to say this spell gets them to use the manacles on anyone else, it does not say if offeres a drink the victim of the spell will decide that other guy looks thristy and give it away instead.......
Well...from what the spell says, you give it an item, and it wields/dons/consumes it without question. If you give it a sacrificial dagger, it isn't going to use it on it's own; it'll wield it since it's a weapon.
To me, that is how the mechanics work. If you give it manacles, it will only use them as told. So if you were to tell it to don the manacles, it will wear them accordingly. If you tell it to place it on a different enemy, it will attempt to do so.
Even if it isn't able to don an item, due to something like it's attitude towards you, you can use charm, or even hypnotism to make it friendlier, or both to make it practically fall in love with you, and then use beguiling gift, making it very plausible that it will use the item in the way announced.
If I'm getting this wrong, please, tell me. I got 4 days before having to play this char. ^ ^''
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Thats pretty much seems to be how it works from reading the spell. Which is why I personally love the spell.
Barnabus wrote: Are you reading the spell?
You offer an object to an adjacent creature, and entice it into using or consuming the proffered item. If the target fails its Will save, it immediately takes the offered object, dropping an already held object if necessary. On its next turn, it consumes or dons the object, as appropriate for the item in question. For example, an apple would be eaten, a potion consumed, a ring put on a finger, and a sword wielded in a free hand. If the target is physically unable to accept the object, the spell fails. The subject is under no obligation to continue consuming or using the item once the spell's duration has expired, although it may find a cursed item difficult to be rid of.
This would be most similar to putting on a ring therefore "donning the manacles would be the result of the spell"....
It takes a severe twist to say this spell gets them to use the manacles on anyone else, it does not say if offeres a drink the victim of the spell will decide that other guy looks thristy and give it away instead.......
No, it doesn't take a severe twist. because eating the apple, drinking the potion, wielding the sword, etc. can be made to appear beneficial to the subject. In what way do the manacles fit this bill?
You have a different interpretation of the mechanic. I don't think that offering someone an item that acts, inarguably, to their detriment holds. Similarly, if I used beguiling gift to hand someone a shirt that was actively on fire, I don't think it would work. A shirt that was soaked in lamp oil while you're holding a torch? Potentially. Because you can sell the shirt as beneficial. Same as the sharp rock.
Your argument hinges on donning a ring = donning manacles. Based on the text of the spell and how enchantments of all levels generally work (IE, you need to be at a MUCH higher spell level to directly counter the victim's will) I disagree.
Exact description.
You offer an object to an adjacent creature, and entice it into using or consuming the proffered item. If the target fails its Will save, it immediately takes the offered object, dropping an already held object if necessary. On its next turn, it consumes or dons the object, as appropriate for the item in question. For example, an apple would be eaten, a potion consumed, a ring put on a finger, and a sword wielded in a free hand. If the target is physically unable to accept the object, the spell fails. The subject is under no obligation to continue consuming or using the item once the spell's duration has expired, although it may find a cursed item difficult to be rid of.
From this, it says if it fails the save, it must use the item's intended purpose, whether beneficial or not. Even if it was a poisoned pill, it must use the item in it's intended purpose. So yeah, manacles can be used.
I just realized my thread sortof changed...XD
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Many discussions that talk about the rules such as build advice. Will almost always end up in a debate on how something works. *shrug* I wouldn't worry about it, ultimately it comes down to what your GM thinks. Since he or she will be the one running it. :)
Eh, true. Well, just found out we aren't doing his on saturday, but two weeks from now...V.V If any of ya'll got a campaign going on paizo, tell me. ^ ^''
Does anyone know what happens if you force it to don a Helm of Opposite Alignment? Could this be used to disarm BBEGs at will?
romuken wrote: Exact description.
From this, it says if it fails the save, it must use the item's intended purpose, whether beneficial or not. Even if it was a poisoned pill, it must use the item in it's intended purpose. So yeah, manacles can be used.
I just realized my thread sortof changed...XD
Yes, I'm aware of the description. I run a witch. I've read the description.
Again, in my interpretation of the reading, it seems that the spell is intended to get the victim to use the item, not commit suicide. An item they were unaware was harmful (potion bottle full of poison, cursed ring, etc) gets by because it's not perceived as actively harmful.
In my interpretation, allowing this to be "put the manacles on now" on a failed will immediately makes this several steps stronger than charms/echantments at level 1 or higher, as it doesn't allow a stronger save (compared to charm person in a combat situation, which would then require a pretty steep charisma check for the same effect) or a second save (dominate person for significantly contrary action).
I also think the description as written is pretty vague, and I'd like to see something directly address doing an obviously harmful act (in the same way every other enchantment is worded).
So, as I said previously, in your reading of this, yes, I can see why you'd work it that way. I wouldn't allow it in my game and I wouldn't do it with my own character because I'd see that as far too powerful an effect.
And yeah, every thread here gets bogged down with rules minutia. But the theme in this topic is the same as the thread should be. Don't get hung up on optimizing your witch. Take a lot of hexes, because hexes are good. Look at extra options. But first and foremost enjoy what you're playing. My ideal witch is gonna be different from yours, because I play casters differently and my party has different needs. Work towards that.
no more powerful than handing someone a pair of Cursed boots of dancing, cloak of imolation, or my personal favorite a Necklace of Strangulation >:)
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