too fiddly - get rid of "points"


Round 2: Words of Power Discussion

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

First off, thank you Jason & Paizo for advancing us into this new space!

You asked for feedback, I would like to talk about how this would go down at "my table."

I play with gamers that have a range of talents and abilities. Some are good at math, some are there because their friend plays. Some are fast, some are slow. However, one principle we all hold to is fairness. That is, the same rules must apply to everyone, no matter what. I don't nessecarily agree with this rule, but that is strongly the culture of my table, and I suspect many others.

Some of my players would be able to "do the math" on all the point-requirements for Words of Power. They would type everything up ahead of time, and it would be grand. Some would not. The excuses would be numerous, and it is pointless to list them or argue them, but there are some players that would not even begin to think about how to spend their word-points until their turn comes up. Please note that I am not musing about hypotheticals, but I am thinking of specific people in my gaming group. (Check out the "Advice" or "Kingmaker" forums on this site to see me complain about them.)

There is only one solution to all of this: ban Words of Power from my table. My friends that are good at math and do their homework would pout, but they would "take the bullet" in order to keep Words of Power away from the problem players, and save the game from everyone.

Please do not post saying "Erik, you're doing it wrong." I'm giving honest feedback to Jason, et al, about how his product would interact with my groups.

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The culprit for all of this is the point-based-system. Exacerbated by the Word Burning feat. While I fully understand why it exists, from a game-design perspective, it still causes extra math.

Please, eliminate the "point system" from Words of Power. If it was one pool (like 3.5 Psionics) that would be one thing. But it's a dozen small pools, that must be individually managed. Squeezing in the "right effects" without "waste" is just too much trickery and math.

And I know right now, that if a player is trying to put together a 4th level spell, and it only comes to 11 points, she'll feel like she's "wasting" power and has to find a way to cram 2 more points in there, taking up precious table-time as she rebuilds.
(No, dropping it down to 3rd level and Word Burning it up is not always an option. Not every caster will take it, and maybe all the 3rd levels are used up.)

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The current system of Metamagic might be a good solution. It scales up and down entire levels of a spell at once. That math is simple enough, and preferred over points.

What about something like:
A 4th level slot can hold:
- a 4th level spell
- a combined 3rd and 2nd level spell
- a combined 3rd and two 1st level spells
And just have that be the rubric for all spells.

If we need granularity, can we find it in sacrificing Caster Level? Temporarily drop your CL by 2 in order to squeeze in an extra effect?

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Basically, I urge you to flee the idea of points, and lots of small "point pools" to fit things into. If it snarls one gamer at the table, it snarls all gamers at the table.

Thanks for taking time to read my post.


If you've looked at the Words of Power cost calculator table you'll see that even in this structured form the math to use every point is a little messy, and messy means delays at the table.

However I would say that the reduced need to continually "look up" spells descriptions in the current spell system would probably counter balance this.

Having the "words" system breaks the spell into managable parts that you'll remember pretty quickly. You're going to know what Target Words you've selected so it's only really the effect that might change.


I would suggest keeping this cost thing simpler too.

My idea would be:

"You may have a number of words in a spell equal to the spell's level +1."

The +1 is so you can have a target word. Then just break up the extra effects off of the words so that they can be added on as their own words.

Perhaps a hard damage cap per spell level would be a good idea too.

When I was working on my own I did the following:

"Elemental word:
An elemental word spell adds damage of an elemental type to the spell. The amount of damage depends on the spell level of the spell:
1st level - 1d4/CL (maximum 5d4)
2nd level - 1d4/CL maximum 10d4
3rd level - 1d6/CL maximum 10d6

By choosing to accept a lower level damage cap you may add another word to the spell."


My suggestion is another feat.

Word Scavenger
Prerequisite: Word Burning
If you cast a spell an do not use all the word cost alloted to a spell of that level, you retain the excess word cost added onto your word burning pool.

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