Hi all ;)
We will start a new adventure soon, and i was thinking go Wizard.
But,
if another player would prefere to do it, i will switch to an Archer
I was thinking just on the "ludic" part of the game (optimization, customization) about the Arcane Archer (in 10 years of roleplay i never tried this class)
The rules are :
Core Rulebook
15 point standard build
Starting level : 1
Race : All except halfling and gnomes
***
I was thinking this 3 vectors :
14 \ 17 \ 10 \ 13 \ 10 \ 10 (Human)
Levels - Warrior until 6th, then Mage(Trasmutator), then Arcane Archer :)
or...
14 \ 17 (18 with trasm) \ 10 \ 13 \ 10 \ 10
and start mage and then go for warrior
But... i can also go for...
14 \ 18(19 with trasm) \ 10 \ 13 \ 10 \ 8
Or maybe switch elf (but i will lost Ability point & Extra Feat)...
What do you suggest (also for feats\ability or leveling tree?)
Consider that we will play levels with "slow" experience progression so levels will be played for a long time and not just skipped
Thank you all! :)
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I thought you had to be an elf or half-elf?
Some good stuff here about archer-ranger with arcane archer.
I thought you had to be an elf or half-elf?
Some good stuff here about archer-ranger with arcane archer.
Not necessarily Elf\Half-Elf, also Human is ok (and its my prefered race)
In the meanwhile, thankyou ;)
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That's errataed; it's now whatever you want.
My personal favorite is Ranger 6 / Wizard 1 / Arcane Archer X, 6 is a great cutoff level for ranger. Pal 5 / Sorc 2 is also appealing.... Saves through the roof. Latter is best played as a halfling.
Don't forget Transmuter is an enhancement bonus; use Str 13 with bonus there. You won't really want an item for that; you'll want a dex stat item. I'd go diviner though, can't be surprised is awesome.
(Ranger 6 plan... ranger I'd take skirmishers / infiltrator package setup)
Str: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Chr: 7
(Pally Human, just for listed preference)
Str 14
Int 7
Wis 7
Dex 18
Con 13
Chr 16
Str: 14
I
That's errataed; it's now whatever you want.
I'm sure I read that it was changed to allow any race but for the life I can't find it in the errata and on the PRD as it still says elf or half elf.
I'm sure I read that it was changed to allow any race but for the life I can't find it in the errata and on the PRD as it still says elf or half elf.That's errataed; it's now whatever you want.
Personally, I do not understand a racial limitation on a class. A class is simply a set of trained abilities. I do not understand how an Elf is more qualified to be an Arcane Archer than a Human or a Dwarf.
Just change the flavor text from "trained by Elves" to "trained in an academy" and, voila, you have the ability to be another race.
thank you all :)
and... do you suggest to level up as ranger\fighter and then go mage or
take first sufference level as a mage (for the +1 physical stats) and then go on with fighter\ranger?
And,
why ranger instead of fighter? Fighter has more feats and you can customize it for fight also in melee with decent results? or no?
;)
Well, max hit points at first level will help so I would go with the martial class first. Then grab wizard at two and go from there. On the other hand wizard with a bonded weapon at fist gets a free spell book and masterwork bow... so more HP or more free swag. :)
On a side note some DM's have an issue with the fighter type suddenly becoming a wizard over night so you may want to query his/her thoughts first. By RAW you can do whatever you want in any order... but from an RP point of view better build in the background for both early on.
The arcane archer trades spell levels and BAB for money -- nothing else. Every class feature (except the "I shoot everything within x feet of me once -- and really what's that going to do that a fireball won't, and how many targets are there going to be anyways? You could probably just shoot them all once with a full attack to begin with) is replicatable with items, and you still can't go over a +10 enhancement bonus on weapons at all. So unless you are in a low magic campaign the Arcane Archer just gives you what you can already have, just slightly faster.
If you are playing till high levels, optimal build is along these lines:
Human
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 3/Eldritch Knight +7/Arcane Archer +1
9th level spells, 17 BAB, 5 bonus feats, Spell Critical, Imbue Arrow, Elemental Arrow, Seeker Arrow, and Wizard Specialist powers up to you.
Don't worry about Int too much, jack your Dex and maybe Str instead. As long as you get to 19 int by 20th level (easy with items) you can cast 9th level spells. You're not going to be focused on high DCs. You'll mainly buff yourself or now and then lay down some nasty, saveless AoE control spell with Imbue Arrow.
Start with 20 Dex. Wear some armor at first level. Ditch the armor 2nd level and scribe a bunch of mage armor scrolls (12.5 gp each!), mem buffs like Gravity Bow.
Feats: 1 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, 3 - Weapon Focus, 5 - Quicken Spell (buff and full attack later on), 6 - Start getting any extra bonuses to ranged attacks you can amass
For early levels it will seem that your Attack Bonus is suffering, but use buffs to offset this. The 2nd level Dex Buff adds two to your attack, Heroism adds 2 as well. With smart buffing you will be fine compared to what a straight archer could do, maybe even better.
Something else that sylvanite didn't mention but plays well into his build: Reach Spell.
You will have several good low level touch spells that would be much better by being ranged touch attacks -- you are perfectly set up for such spells due to the fact you are already a ranged fighter (he did leave out the all important deadly aim though). With reach spell you'll be able to take advantage of all those bonuses and deliver effects like ghoul's touch, touch of idiocy, vampiric touch and more.
Arcane strike would still be a good choice -- on any round that you aren't going to quicken a spell (and there will be more rounds when you don't quicken than when you do) you'll get a lot of extra damage out of it.
Thank you all for replies, they show how this game is flexible really appreciated :)
Sylvanite i can use just Core Rulebook :) and i think i will play low levels for a long time ;)
The arcane archer trades spell levels and BAB for money -- nothing else. Every class feature (except the "I shoot everything within x feet of me once -- and really what's that going to do that a fireball won't, and how many targets are there going to be anyways? You could probably just shoot them all once with a full attack to begin with) is replicatable with items, and you still can't go over a +10 enhancement bonus on weapons at all. So unless you are in a low magic campaign the Arcane Archer just gives you what you can already have, just slightly faster.
Thank you, a question :
But... Take first level as Ranger, then go for Warrior (more ranged feat and melee feat, also armor training & weapon training) and then take the 6th level as mage?
With the first level as ranger i take many skills (stealth >> all :D) and then choosing warrior as preferred class i can spent some additional skill points also if warrior has a low number of skill points (2+int)
Uhhhhh....the only non core thing I mentioned was a single first level spell...gravity bow.
Also, that build works fine at low levels. You lose yer BAB early instead of later, true. However, the difference in power later on between a more rangery or fighter based build with less spellcasting and the one I presented is dramatic to say the least.
Also, Deadly Aim is a great suggestion. Not sold on Reach Spell, but you certainly have some feats to play with if you use the build I presented. Arcane Strike also works well. Great suggestions, Abe. Wayyy late in the build I might take Improved Critical and a good Critical feat over Arcane Strike, as you'll have a lot of attacks per round and want to take advantage of Spell Critical when it procs. At that point, Reach Spell becomes a much better option as well.
It'd be interesting to see a mathy workup of whether or not you are better off getting 4 damage per arrow from Arcane Strike consistently, or waiting to use Spell Critical. I can say that with 6 attacks per round (rapid shot and haste effect) you should crit once every two rounds on average (Imp. Crit assumed). If you hit with all arrows each round that's 48 damage over 2 rounds with Arcane Strike. Is there a spell to match that, or that has effects worth that? If I were to wait for Spell Critical to go off, I would also probably take anything I could that would help me confirm crits, in case it came on one of my lower iterative attacks.
Either way, critting with a bow, decent Strength, weapon spec, deadly aim, and arcane strike gets pretty ridiculous.
All said, yer going to be looking at around 40 damage per arrow with this build at high levels. With Wizard buffs and all iterative attacks, that's going to get real nasty.
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The reason for straight ranger is simple: access to Improved Precise Strike at level 6. Most have to wait till +11 to get it. That feat is the single biggest damage multiplier in the game; suddenly you just don't care where your friends are, and enemies can't just block each other. It's crazy.
Add tons of skill points, favored enemy (choose Evil Outsiders and Undead and you get the biggest threats in the mid levels), and you more than make up for th +1 to hit / +3 damage the fighter gets. Also staying one melée class gets you a few more hp. And the maneuver that lets you take another attack at -5 if you miss in skirmisher seems great (untested but great in theory). Finally an extra good save and the ability to share around a favored enemy bonus (as companion stuck at low level really won't do much) and you get a solid overall setup.
If you go straight ranger for 6 levels, what do you get from Arcane Archer? You're better off just staying Ranger.
Ranger 6/Wizard 2/Arcane Archer 4/Eldritch Knight 8?
Yay. I get third level spells at 12th level. Imbue Arrow, the real gem of Arcane Archer is no getting the awesomeness it promises. Plus you've killed your Favored Enemy progression (+4 against one type of creature and +2 on another...I'd rather take Weapon Specialization and cast Heroism for +2 attack and damage to everything)
Improved Precise Shot is really nice. I won't argue that, but I've never played where it was that big of a deal at all. Do your allies count for providing enemies with cover? We don't seem to play that way where I play, but that may be a homerule or lack of knowing the proper rules : )
I wouldn't call it the single biggest damage multiplier at all, either. That's hyperbole. The single biggest damage multiplier in the game might actually be the Haste spell....which strangely enough, you also get at level 6 if you go Fighter 1/Wizard 5.
Running into enemies that hide behind each other is also rare. And if it's common, it's the kind of thing that almost makes ya wish you had AoE spells to take advantage of them packing together.....
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Yes, allies do count as covering one another, and we play in a lot of dungeon settings, so monsters get in the way of the casters a lot. And cover is calculated by taking my best corner to your worst corner, so you'll find with a full battlefield it's very difficult to avoid. So basically improved precise is +4 to hit a good portion of the time. The lack of early access to improved precise actually balances range with melée a lot in the early levels... rangers break this rule, and at 6th can just stand 30 feet back and choose targets. Naturally if you have a house rule where allies don't count this is all totally unnecessary and the +1/+3 is more worth it.
As to arcane archer, it's difficult in general. You're not wrong that a straight ranger/fighter/zen archer/paladin IS more powerful... they just don't gain much as a whole. Truly the best use of Arcane Archer is straight wizard 12 / arcane archer 2 so you can imbue arrows with anti-magic field and shoot them. It costs a caster level, but it's one hell of a trick. But they do get a few options from their spell access, it certainly isn't the worst call in the world.
I'd consider going straight Ranger as well. The Ranger won't get WS or all the utility spells of the Wizard, but you do get to wear armor without fear of ASF, and you can get Improved Precise Shot at 6 which is huge if your GM enforces soft cover.
I'd also work on convincing your GM to allow you to use Gravity Bow and Arrow of Eruption from the APG. Both are huge boosts in power to the Ranger and AA.
+1
The reason for straight ranger is simple: access to Improved Precise Strike at level 6. Most have to wait till +11 to get it.
+1 again
Fair enough, archers are a little bit more tough to play if you're constantly in cramped quarters.
One other point I want to make that sometimes fails to get made since there are no straight numerical bonuses involved...
Getting access to Flight as early as possible with a ranged character is HUGE. Like.....I need font that's ten times bigger to write how huge it is. It's the type of huge where if you abuse it, suddenly all the encounters your DM makes will be targeted at nullifying that ability of yours.
Changes lines for cover. Makes you completely invulnerable to a lot of monsters. Getting this, along with access to haste and heroism etc. at 6th level with an archer character is game changing.
(My turn for a little hyperbole...but it's only a little.)
Rangers do have ASF with Arcane spells. I know that's not why you're giving the +1 to that quote, but I should point out that part is wrong.
Imp. Precise is really nice. No doubt. Not worth it to gimp your whole build, tho.
+1I'd consider going straight Ranger as well. The Ranger won't get WS or all the utility spells of the Wizard, but you do get to wear armor without fear of ASF, and you can get Improved Precise Shot at 6 which is huge if your GM enforces soft cover.
I'd also work on convincing your GM to allow you to use Gravity Bow and Arrow of Eruption from the APG. Both are huge boosts in power to the Ranger and AA.
How do rangers get to where armor without ASF? Maybe for divine spells...
@Sylvanite
While I do agree your build is probably more powerful he wants to play a Archer. His "Friend" In the party is playing the wizard. Your build is very heavy caster to start. On a different note, its really how your games are run, The plus 4 to hit without spending 2 rounds buffing is huge. In our games (where there is no house rule nullifying soft cover, and combat rarely last pass 5 rounds) your spending half your time buffing. To finish off, most of our games finish between the levels 12 and 17, with that in mind I go for early benefits. I never bother with Core class cap stones or bank on having 9th level spells.
I know that's not why you're giving the +1 to that quote, but I should point out that part is wrong.
Its not wrong, its my experience in a different setting. Where we have to follow the rules. Sorry there isn't only one way to build a type of class and it depends a lot on your preference. I appreciate your opinion, don't down talk other peoples opinion
I cannot quote everyone for your suggestions but really really thank you all, you gave so many ideas that now i just have 1 difficult : choose.
Ranger is very nice, but also Mage 12°\Arcane Archer is a nice thing and i dont have to choose earlier the classtree :p
Going up as ranger, with the 15 point standard build, what array do you suggest?
i was thinking (this is a low stat campaign and cha 8 will be considered during play so i prefer to stay "balanced" instead of pumping out 1 stat)
str 14
dex 16\17 (with +2 racial)
con 10
int 10
wis 14\13
car 10
as Human
@Sylvanite
While I do agree your build is probably more powerful he wants to play a Archer. His "Friend" In the party is playing the wizard. Your build is very heavy caster to start. On a different note, its really how your games are run, The plus 4 to hit without spending 2 rounds buffing is huge. In our games (where there is no house rule nullifying soft cover, and combat rarely last pass 5 rounds) your spending half your time buffing. To finish off, most of our games finish between the levels 12 and 17, with that in mind I go for early benefits. I never bother with Core class cap stones or bank on having 9th level spells.
I know that's not why you're giving the +1 to that quote, but I should point out that part is wrong.Its not wrong, its my experience in a different setting. Where we have to follow the rules. Sorry there isn't only one way to build a type of class and it depends a lot on your preference. I appreciate your opinion, don't down talk other peoples opinion
Fair points. The part that was wrong that you quoted was just the other guy's comment that Rangers get to cast in armor. That's why I said I get why you were giving +1, but the casting in armor part is wrong. ASF means arcane spell failure. (To Adam, I see what you mean now, I was thinking people were saying to take Ranger as a lead in to AA, which seems ridiculous)
A couple problems with what you said...he started off wanting to play a Wizard, but is switching for a friend. Oddly, the build I was suggesting let's him play an archer while still dabbling with what he originally wanted to do.
You're right about it being how your games are run. I prefaced my original build with this opening line, "If you are playing till high levels, optimal build is along these lines:" If you never get to play with real high levels, then considerations change. If you intend to get there, it is at those levels where being a little more optimal really matters though, as fights swing real fast.
I appreciate your opinions as well, and I'm not talking down others, just engaging in discourse. Anyone reading this discussion is going to come away from it with a vastly better idea of what options they have overall with an Arcane Archer.
If your issues are with my sassy tone, then that I can at least admit to and acknowledge : )
@Jamsus
If you start with a 19 in Dex, in early levels the +1 from Transmuter also becomes a +1 to AC, attack, initiative, and reflex, which is nice. Once you get to 4th you can bump dex, and whenever you get Wizard 5 your bump can either further boost Dex (if you don't have a Dex boosting item yet) or boost Str for another point of damage or Con for more HP.
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15 point human mono-ranger with some potential to become arcane archer?
Str: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 10
Chr: 7
Feats:
1) Point Black / Precise
2) Rapid
3) Lookout* / Deadly Aim
5) Boon Companion (or deadly aim for the Arcane Archer)
6) Improved Precise
Favored enemies: 1) Undead 5) Human 10) Evil outsider, though you can customize this to the camaign. These are simply some of the most useful. I like the Skirmisher/Infiltrator kits... they go together very well.
Lookout is of course if you get a friend with high percep willing to do it with you. Nothing quite like ambush and full attacking in surprise round; or hell, getting ambushed and attacking in surprise round. Or if you go full ranger you can get our animal companion to Lookout... handy with scent :).
All level raised naturally to Dex. If you are certain you will not be Mage, drop int to 7 and put 13 in Con / 19 Dex.
@Sylvanite
Well, seems in my Haste i was wrong too. I didnt even notice that the ASF part was copy pasted in. But, in my defense I bolded the parts i was referring the +1 too. My apologizes. I still stand by the fact that Improved Precise shot 5 levels earlier is amazing and depending on how your games are run. The lost time in buffing will greatly reduce your dmg output. That being said, in ANY campaign that passes 15th (could probably say 12th)level casters will become more potent and powerful than melee/mundane range.
@Sylvanite
Well, seems in my Haste i was wrong too. I didnt even notice that the ASF part was copy pasted in. But, in my defense I bolded the parts i was referring the +1 too. My apologizes. I still stand by the fact that Improved Precise shot 5 levels earlier is amazing and depending on how your games are run. The lost time in buffing will greatly reduce your dmg output. That being said, in ANY campaign that passes 15th (could probably say 12th)level casters will become more potent and powerful than melee/mundane range.
Yer right. Improved Precise shot is really nice. My only defense on the buffing front: If you are dungeon crawling so much that Imrpoved Precise Shot is so needed, and your fights are so fast, then you're also probably running strings of fights in a row. In that case, buffs like Fly, Heroism, Cat's Grace, Mage Armor etc. will last through many combats. Unless you sit around for 2 minutes after each fight. Fly cast at 5th level lasts for 50 rounds. Heroism 500. Mage Armor 30,000. Rods of Lesser extend are awesome too and readily available around 6th
And the real Wizard in the party should be casting Haste anyways, so that's off your list : )
It definitely depends on the playstyle of the group and design style of the DM, but either way there are some good choices.
@Thalin: He only has access to the Core rulebook. The APG stuff isn't available. Straight rangers are pretty cool anyways tho.
15 point human mono-ranger with some potential to become arcane archer?
Str: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 10
Chr: 7Feats:
1) Point Black / Precise
2) Rapid
3) Lookout* / Deadly Aim
5) Boon Companion (or deadly aim for the Arcane Archer)
6) Improved Precise
Favored enemies: 1) Undead 5) Human 10) Evil outsider, though you can customize this to the camaign. These are simply some of the most useful. I like the Skirmisher/Infiltrator kits... they go together very well.Lookout is of course if you get a friend with high percep willing to do it with you. Nothing quite like ambush and full attacking in surprise round; or hell, getting ambushed and attacking in surprise round. Or if you go full ranger you can get our animal companion to Lookout... handy with scent :).
All level raised naturally to Dex. If you are certain you will not be Mage, drop int to 7 and put 13 in Con / 19 Dex.
Mantaining all stats near to 10\8 what will you drop? bring dex at 17? and maybe take int 13 and char 8?
stats are very roleplay-incident in our group (and i love this :p )
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In order:
*Int 10 is a "no real loss" if you need Cha 8 for RP purposes and aren't Persuing Arcane Archer... With human 7 skill points / level is a "silly high" amount, so you won't feel it. But it does limit a future option (or at least makes you dependent on an int item to cast).
*Str 13 still qualifies you for feats... A bit more painful, but 1 damage a shot isn't really all that much. Does limit becoming a switch-hitter with a 2-handed weapon though.
*Wis 10 makes you reliant on magic items for spells, and is -1 perception / survival, but still workable. Only use if you want Cha 10 AND don't want to drop int so you can AA.
Dex 18 will be a godsend early levels... it is everything to you. You want to keep raising this stat to Infinitity.
For Arcane archer, str 13 is even easier, since you can transmute it to 14 at 7.
Always get spell storing arrows. They're cheap, my current player as an AA has thought about making some with bane outsider (evil) in the game I'm running. Spell storing arrows + multishot = win. I've seen him dish out 36d6 damage plus arrow damage in one round easy.
You weren't wrong, and neither was I. A straight Ranger (that is a key element in the quoted text) does not suffer from ASF. Rangers don't cast arcane spells.@Sylvanite
Well, seems in my Haste i was wrong too. I didnt even notice that the ASF part was copy pasted in. But, in my defense I bolded the parts i was referring the +1 too. My apologizes. I still stand by the fact that Improved Precise shot 5 levels earlier is amazing and depending on how your games are run. The lost time in buffing will greatly reduce your dmg output. That being said, in ANY campaign that passes 15th (could probably say 12th)level casters will become more potent and powerful than melee/mundane range.
Correct. You weren't wrong. It was just misleading. You don't even need to state that they don't worry about ASF, because of course they don't, they don't cast arcane spells. Also, since when does an Arcane Archer worry about ASF either? That's the part that confused me.
@Madcap:
Spellstoring arrows are hilariously awesome. That is, if they don't get you kicked out of your group. You and the guy wearing defending armor spikes :)
Arcane Archers can wear armor, but I just don't see why they ever would with Mage Armor at their disposal and such jacked Dex that most armors would limit their max Dex bonus anyhow.
As a fully specced out Dex character, you do better in the end (AC wise) with something like Bracers of Armor anyways. That's later in the career, but for early on Mage Armor (and shield if needed, though probably not as its usually a round to buff unless you have notice or go through strings of fast fights).
Depending on your DM, you can even research a higher level Mage Armor for a better bonus or even other effects that enchanted armors would have, but that is totally something you'd have to talk to a DM about and not something I can really argue as a selling point. Worth mentioning though as rules for researching new spells are part of the core, and it's not game breaking (or even close compared to later Wizard spells).
And other non-AC spells provide even better defense (greater invis, fly, displacement, etc. if you reallly need it)
Always get spell storing arrows. They're cheap, my current player as an AA has thought about making some with bane outsider (evil) in the game I'm running. Spell storing arrows + multishot = win. I've seen him dish out 36d6 damage plus arrow damage in one round easy.
Not that I disagree at their power, but 160gp per arrow is not something I'd ever consider cheap, even at higher levels. When you consider that an arcane archer with a BAB of 11+ can dish out 5 arrows(3 bab, 1 haste, 1 rapid, 1 manyshot) a round on a completely average turn, and that arrows that strike an enemy are destroyed, you're looking at literally thousands of gold in difficult encounters.
It's a solid trick for those "omg noez" battles, but for everyday use? Yikes.
Not that I disagree at their power, but 160gp per arrow is not something I'd ever consider cheap, even at higher levels. When you consider that an arcane archer with a BAB of 11+ can dish out 5 arrows(3 bab, 1 haste, 1 rapid, 1 manyshot) a round on a completely average turn, and that arrows that strike an enemy are destroyed, you're looking at literally thousands of gold in difficult encounters.It's a solid trick for those "omg noez" battles, but for everyday use? Yikes.
In reality, the benefit in action economy and versatility would FAR outweigh the cost... Which is probably why Spell Storing has NEVER BEEN A RANGED WEAPON ENHANCEMENT. It is a melee weapon ability, and always has been. I know that some GMs don't mind putting any enhancement on ammo and such, which is fine, but I'm also fairly sure that many just don't realize it isn't a valid item RAW.
But, if your GM says it's cool, take 'em and run... Because they really are just that awesome.
After reading all those replyes (and really really thank you all for that)
i think i will be go for Ranger.
Pure ranger,
array : 14 \ 16 \ 10 \ 10 \ 14 \ 10 (i will take handle animal and our gameplay style is very dependant from base stats)
and obviously i will go Archer (but with melee switch option)
:)