I have a mechanics question from a session today.
Our encounter had us fighting, among others, a mage who was flying 30 feet up. I decided my thief would dimension door (using a magic item) above the thief, dropping down on top of him for a hopeful sneak attack before presumably falling to the ground.
(I'd originally wanted to land ON the mage, using both weapons to attack in the following round, but DM (and I) decided that would probably involve grappling and couldn't be done with my swords in hand).
Basically, we decided to just treat it as a dimension door one round, with a sneak attack attempt as I fell past him in the next round (per the rules, you can't attack after dim dooring so we waited a round, and decided the mage wasn't aware of my moving above him so was vulnerable to the extra damage). DM also let me make an acrobatics roll to try to reduce the fall damage.
Any thoughts on whether we handled it correctly or what you/your DM would have done in that situation?
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It sounds like you dealt with it correctly. I think technically you fall something like 500 ft. in a round (which seems insane to me), and given the weird abstractions of initiative, you'd have to time out the end of that fall to coincide with his attack on the mage.
In my own game, I would have run it as you did, because that is quicker and more awesome.
I have a mechanics question from a session today.
Our encounter had us fighting, among others, a mage who was flying 30 feet up. I decided my thief would dimension door (using a magic item) above the thief, dropping down on top of him for a hopeful sneak attack before presumably falling to the ground.
(I'd originally wanted to land ON the mage, using both weapons to attack in the following round, but DM (and I) decided that would probably involve grappling and couldn't be done with my swords in hand).
Basically, we decided to just treat it as a dimension door one round, with a sneak attack attempt as I fell past him in the next round (per the rules, you can't attack after dim dooring so we waited a round, and decided the mage wasn't aware of my moving above him so was vulnerable to the extra damage). DM also let me make an acrobatics roll to try to reduce the fall damage.
Any thoughts on whether we handled it correctly or what you/your DM would have done in that situation?
You'd have to dimension door a large number of feet over him, and hope he doesn't move. You then either graple him, or fall to what is probably your death.
a round is six seconds, you're going to move and then attack (3 seconds of falling at 32 feet per second per second
1 second 16 feet (an average of 0 feet and 32 feet)
2 second 48 (average of 32 and 64)
3rd second 80 feet (its been a while since high school physics)
= 144 feet, knock it down to around 130 for wind resistance , ad 30 for the wizards height= 160 feet. = 16d6 points of damage -1d6 for a tumble check =15d6 damage to you for falling.
Technically the wizard wouldn't be flat footed from the attack, but i'd allow a sneak attack anyway.
Dude, the Mage was only 30 ft above ground...
Why would the Rogue fall 160 ft?
Because you can't act after you dimension door. So on round 2 you'd have to port in above the mage, and on round 3 BONZAI!
After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.
There is a method to the madness!
However, we have Ferris Bueller bouncy pad jumps here, where if you don't have enough movement to complete a jump in a turn, the jump continues to take your move action until it is completed. So, if you don't have a move action when you teleport 40' up, you are as a cartoon coyote until your initiative comes up again and you have the action to move the 40' straight down, eh?
As to the whole 'you can't do it unless you port in way high', remember, this is an abstracted system, so a lot of things don't make sense when you do edge cases.
The way I would have handled it? Rogue holds his action until initiative zero of round 2 (goes last in the turn), and then does the dimension door). Then have him roll a new initiative. If he goes before the mage, he get's his attack as he falls past in turn 3. Yes, gravity doesn't wait for initiatives, however, due to the wonky abstraction, while the turn is 6 seconds long, it doesn't start until the first persons initiative, then time passes until you reach 0 six seconds later. Ergo, unless he rolls a 1 for initiative, more than likely he's going in the first second or two of the round, more than sufficient to stab the wizard as he drops past.
Not to mention, cool trumps rule minutia (not rules, just minutia). :)
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Or you just ignore the physics and go with the "makes for a more exciting story" element. I play and DM a lot, and have done so for a long time now. I find the solution offered by the OP much better than...I come up with an interesting idea in this abstracted magical world, my DM decides it doesn't fit in with real world physics, so I fail. Nothing in that for either side. This sort of creativity with spells should be rewarded. It's fine as long as BOTH players and DM realise this waiving of reality goers both ways...so next timne teh players are flying perhaps they should watch the skies above...
Oh please. So, by this logic, the player can end his turn by stepping off a cliff and not fall until his next turn?
Gravity always gets an immediate action.
And it doesn't make it a more exciting story. It makes it Looney Tunes or Road Runner.
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Wow over realism reaction to the OP. He's talking about an interesting combat situation not flaunting forever more the rules of physics. No player in my games would ever have that expectation, and it only appears like a looney toons IF the DM lets it present that way. I imagine my view of the situation is uncleear and may disagree with yours. Walking off a cliff falls into the common sense DM approach - you step off cliff, you fall, no player expects otherwise. The OP was highlighting what is a reasonable way to handle an event in an abstracted and pseudo-real combat system. I kind of thought of it as...
Pre-action: PC asks about tactic. DM states sure it may work but you will take falling damage AND if the wizard moves from his spot you'll miss him. He may also detect you (ID the dim door spell or hear a stray sound from the falling rogue) and you won't get the sneak.
Action: Rogue still wants to try despite the odds. Uses his item cast dim door on himself to launch himself above the enemy wizard. The rogue can do nothing more except to begin falling toward the wizard in a dramatic and cinematic slow motion fall (effectively loosing the rest of his action). The other players have their actions at the same time launching arrows or doing other suitably heroic acts to distract the wizards. The enemy wizards turn comes up and he launches a spell at the party but doesn't move (nothing he sees threatens his current position). Above he hears a faint sound; alerted by that sound (passive perception check at -10?) turns, but alas he is too late to see the rogue dropping toward him, striking out with his dagger at the wizards exposed neck. Drawing blood before hitting the ground, hard (say 4d6 damage). Next round begins. Rogue is prone, wizard is badly hurt, imagination is rewarded at no cost to the game and no real cost to physics.
Thanks all. It's definitely one of those situations where the rules aren't quite set up to take care of what I think would be a cool action scene, considering the stop-go concept of initiative (it's not like when you're running, you go 60 feet, stop, and then go 60 feet again, though that's how it works mechanically) and no actions after dim-dooring rule.
I figured the rogue teleported just five feet above the wizard (so the 14d6 wasn't an issue), who hadn't been moving (he was controlling a construct below and had a shield spell up covering everything below him, and we'd been completely ineffective against him, so he wasn't seeing us as a threat). We certainly felt the seemingly hanging in air Wile E.-style was wonky but we were trying to figure out how to best handle it with the rules.
Thinking now, I might instead have suggested that the rogue fell, and attacked immediately (despite the Dim Door restriction) but then lost his next turn as he'd effectively already taken that action.
I was less sure the DM (I was playing the rogue in this case) would allow me to tumble at the end of the fall since it wasn't exactly an intended jump off a height that allows the acrobatics role, but fortunately he did.
I knew I could survive even a maxed-out 30-foot fall, though I was worried about taking a handful of magic missiles afterward. Fortunately, I did 25 points of damage on the sneak attack; the wizard had only 24.
As to the whole 'you can't do it unless you port in way high', remember, this is an abstracted system, so a lot of things don't make sense when you do edge cases.
The way I would have handled it? Rogue holds his action until initiative zero of round 2 (goes last in the turn), and then does the dimension door). Then have him roll a new initiative.
Thats rather arbitrary. Why is the rogue getting a new initiative? If he delays until 0 in round 2 then he acts at 0 in round 3, and its always 6 seconds from 0 to 0 or from 20 to 20. There's no rule or reason for the rogue getting to go twice in between the wizards going once in the middle of combat.
If he goes before the mage, he get's his attack as he falls past in turn 3. Yes, gravity doesn't wait for initiatives, however, due to the wonky abstraction, while the turn is 6 seconds long, it doesn't start until the first persons initiative
That's not a rule.
Not to mention, cool trumps rule minutia (not rules, just minutia). :)
Cool is why I'd allow it at all, the problem being that you're allowing people to go twice before someone else can go once, which is extremely problematic.
A few problems with this.
Standard action: Dimension door.
Move action: DC 25 Acrobatics check or DC 15 Fly check to intercept wizard (I'd have given a +1 for every additional 10 ft of space you gave yourself to maneuver)
After you cast dimension door you cannot take any other actions that round. not standard not move not free not swift. Your turn is done.
AOO on wizard: Specifically because the rogue has a weapon drawn FOR THIS PURPOSE and the wizard is passing through his threatened square (rogue isn't independently moving, so the fact that the rogue arranged that movement is irrelevant).
The rogue is not the center of the universe. Space and location in pathfinder is not relative. The Rogue is moving past the wizard, this does not mean that the wizard is moving past the rogue. The wizard is the one who gets the AoO, not the Rogue.
Any thoughts on whether we handled it correctly or what you/your DM would have done in that situation?
I would have said no myself. Dimension door isn't really intended to do what you want to do. And falling is a lot faster and a lot more difficult to manage than it seems.
That's how I would have handled it. It leaves the player happy, wasn't over the top and rewards his imagination.
That's fine as long as every situation like this is handled the same way. . . which can be pretty difficult to do, especially when it turns into "my crazy physics" versus "his crazy physics".
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That's fine as long as every situation like this is handled the same way. . . which can be pretty difficult to do, especially when it turns into "my crazy physics" versus "his crazy physics".
I agree 100% which is why the best tool at the table is communication. Some times a situation is handled badly but we tend to reflect on it and try to avoid repeats.
Wow over realism reaction to the OP.
Look, dude, I get it. I've let players throw themselves off cliffs to intercept manticores and shoot themselves with siege weapons. But when you're talking about the physics of the game world, you have to be strict as a mistake can undermine everything you do. Plus, you set a huge precedent, as dimension door and flying enemies aren't an uncommon combo at mid-high levels.