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It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile* opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.
Does this mean they get to be outside of the area of the wall if they make the reflex save or the wall does not form. I understand it from a balance point of view, but jumping 15 feet or so without a running start as a nonaction is not too believable.
*I am assuming mobile means an opponent that is not paralyzed, and not someone who is in the act of walking or running.
It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile* opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.Does this mean they get to be outside of the area of the wall if they make the reflex save or the wall does not form. I understand it from a balance point of view, but jumping 15 feet or so without a running start as a nonaction is not too believable.
*I am assuming mobile means an opponent that is not paralyzed, and not someone who is in the act of walking or running.
I've always ran it as you jump out of the area. While a stretch to move that far other walls specifically state that it stops the wall from forming, also they usually need to be adjacent to it on on its square to stop it from forming. And there may be others that fail their save that would be trapped so I don't think one successful save should nix it for all enemies in a horde. Note that Stoneshape doesn't have the save to negate being trapped listed if you use it to put them in a bubble or cage of stone which is cute; though I'd rule otherwise.
Maybe I will just have some expendable monster grapple him(random enemy) before I do the wall of stone.
It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile* opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.Does this mean they get to be outside of the area of the wall if they make the reflex save or the wall does not form. I understand it from a balance point of view, but jumping 15 feet or so without a running start as a nonaction is not too believable.
*I am assuming mobile means an opponent that is not paralyzed, and not someone who is in the act of walking or running.
I think you have to move them outside the wall. You can either take the movement off of their action next turn, or just assume that "the walls are closing in on me!" was enough of an adrenaline burst to get them to move a few extra feet.
I think you have to move them outside the wall. You can either take the movement off of their action next turn, or just assume that "the walls are closing in on me!" was enough of an adrenaline burst to get them to move a few extra feet.It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile* opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.Does this mean they get to be outside of the area of the wall if they make the reflex save or the wall does not form. I understand it from a balance point of view, but jumping 15 feet or so without a running start as a nonaction is not too believable.
*I am assuming mobile means an opponent that is not paralyzed, and not someone who is in the act of walking or running.
It seems to be one of those things that was never thought about when the game was made. I would like to see it cleared up. I came to the boards because I don't want to make a biased decision. I guess taking their next move action away works for now.
edit:do you think they should still lose the move action of they fail the save?
edit:do you think they should still lose the move action of they fail the save?
I wouldn't take the move ACTION just the amount of move needed to exit the stone, and then only if they made it. Some of the step up feats work this way.
But you're right, by the rules there really is no way to possibly make the reflex save, since you can't leave the area
It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile* opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.Does this mean they get to be outside of the area of the wall if they make the reflex save or the wall does not form. I understand it from a balance point of view, but jumping 15 feet or so without a running start as a nonaction is not too believable.
*I am assuming mobile means an opponent that is not paralyzed, and not someone who is in the act of walking or running.
I alyas assumed making the reflex saving throw means they quickly reacted to the wall forming. I made the wall forming and falling in the same instant. A quick character that made the save actually dove through the forming wall as it fell and ended in the same square.
I alyas assumed making the reflex saving throw means they quickly reacted to the wall forming. I made the wall forming and falling in the same instant. A quick character that made the save actually dove through the forming wall as it fell and ended in the same square.
The wall doesn't fall. It stands in place like... well.. a stone wall. It traps people because it can be shaped into boxes and domes with a character in the center.
To the OP, you are correct in noticing that it is an unworkable and incoherent rule.
I'd suggest not giving a save unless the wall is forming in a creatures square, and then let a successful save let them determine which side they end up on (their choice).
The alternative is to let creatures get weird and free combat movement to put them outside of the affected area; that option seems unworkable and upsetting to players and DMs alike. I mean, imagine players giving other players free combat movement using a Wall of Stone.... that's just terrible.
The wall doesn't fall. It stands in place like... well.. a stone wall. It traps people because it can be shaped into boxes and domes with a character in the center.
I always played that a successful save made it so that the wall could not be fully made... leaving a nice size hole that they can enter/leave from.
This way you don't have them moving outside of their turn.
-James
That's a weird option. How do you determine where that hole is if the affected person is in the center of a 30' hemisphere?
I mean, imagine players giving other players free combat movement using a Wall of Stone.... that's just terrible.
I thought about that too. My previous idea was to only allow a save if you were adjacent to where part of the wall was, and even then you only got to escape to outside where ever the wall was forming. The issue with that is that no sane caster will form the wall so that you ever have that option so that kind of defeats the point of the save.
That's a weird option. How do you determine where that hole is if the affected person is in the center of a 30' hemisphere?
The wall doesn't fall. It stands in place like... well.. a stone wall. It traps people because it can be shaped into boxes and domes with a character in the center.
I always played that a successful save made it so that the wall could not be fully made... leaving a nice size hole that they can enter/leave from.
This way you don't have them moving outside of their turn.
-James
Exactly, If I use the spell it will be far enough way to not justify you jumping through it or interrupting it per my last post.
That's a weird option. How do you determine where that hole is if the affected person is in the center of a 30' hemisphere?The opponent would be able to so choose on a successful REF save as they are the ones disrupting it.
Its no more weird than being able to move 20' away from a wall of stone, but not against a fireball.
You have to admit that it is a weird restriction on wall of stone in the first place.. here's the bit of text: "It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves."
Now how does the spell know this? Well either this spell grants movement out of turn.. in which case one might cast in on an ally to grant such movement...
Or the moving opponent somehow disrupts part or all of the casting as also in the text: "The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object."
I take it to be that somehow the opponent is able to come close to the forming wall of stone and disrupts part of it.
Is it a great answer? No, but it works.
Imho the best answer is to allow a REF save to disrupt any/all part(s) of the wall forming within reach, but that's me.
-James
I think people would just never use the hemisphere option again except to enclose themselves.
I mean, I can understand how a Fireball can be saved against. I mean it's fire following magic physics, so it might be sheets washing over a circular area inside the AoE that can be dodged..... but randomly choosing a hole is more metagaming than I'm comfortable with.
IMO no save unless you're at the edge of the stone "bubble". It might make the spell slightly more powerful than intended but it makes sense to me.
Either that or rule that in any situation a character may take an extra move. If the character does take the action then they do not get their move action next round.
It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile* opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.Does this mean they get to be outside of the area of the wall if they make the reflex save or the wall does not form. I understand it from a balance point of view, but jumping 15 feet or so without a running start as a nonaction is not too believable.
*I am assuming mobile means an opponent that is not paralyzed, and not someone who is in the act of walking or running.
Wall of Stone isn't the only spell that works this way; Transmute Mud to Rock does too, for instance. Likewise with the version of Wall of Iron that falls over. Like BigNorseWolf says, apparently anyone can haul ass if their life depends on it.
but randomly choosing a hole is more metagaming than I'm comfortable with.Then please explain how having someone try to block you off with a wall of stone lets you move, but a ball of fire doesn't?
I mean if my PC can move 10-15' when its not his turn because someone cast wall of stone, why not when they cast fireball?
-James
As I said before, the movement is unworkable as well which is why I proposed a different solution in my first post in the thread..
As I said before, the movement is unworkable as well which is why I proposed a different solution in my first post in the thread..but randomly choosing a hole is more metagaming than I'm comfortable with.Then please explain how having someone try to block you off with a wall of stone lets you move, but a ball of fire doesn't?
I mean if my PC can move 10-15' when its not his turn because someone cast wall of stone, why not when they cast fireball?
-James
Not giving a save is the worst possible option. It completely overpowers the spell, and goes against the raw and rai of there being a save.
Not giving a save is the worst possible option. It completely overpowers the spell, and goes against the raw and rai of there being a save.As I said before, the movement is unworkable as well which is why I proposed a different solution in my first post in the thread..but randomly choosing a hole is more metagaming than I'm comfortable with.Then please explain how having someone try to block you off with a wall of stone lets you move, but a ball of fire doesn't?
I mean if my PC can move 10-15' when its not his turn because someone cast wall of stone, why not when they cast fireball?
-James
How is it overpowered? A Wall of Stone is at best a 1-2 turn speedbump before the enemy puts a hole in it. At worse, it wastes one enemy's turn and the rest come streaming through the hole.
How is it overpowered? A Wall of Stone is at best a 1-2 turn speedbump before the enemy puts a hole in it. At worse, it wastes one enemy's turn and the rest come streaming through the hole.
Depends on the enemy. A rogue or unintelligent monster is pretty well hosed, that's 45 hitpoints to whack through with a hardness of 8. If you use light weapons you're going to be there a while. You also have a minimum of 4 squares to cordon off, possibly getting 4 critters with no save.
but randomly choosing a hole is more metagaming than I'm comfortable with.Then please explain how having someone try to block you off with a wall of stone lets you move, but a ball of fire doesn't?
I mean if my PC can move 10-15' when its not his turn because someone cast wall of stone, why not when they cast fireball?
-James
When you dodge a fireball you are still in the same 5 ft square. In order to get out of a wall of stone when your movement is not even fast enough to get there, or if you are grappled, would require reasoning that I can't even come up with right now.
Wall of Stone isn't the only spell that works this way; Transmute Mud to Rock does too, for instance. Likewise with the version of Wall of Iron that falls over. Like BigNorseWolf says, apparently anyone can haul ass if their life depends on it.It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile* opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.Does this mean they get to be outside of the area of the wall if they make the reflex save or the wall does not form. I understand it from a balance point of view, but jumping 15 feet or so without a running start as a nonaction is not too believable.
*I am assuming mobile means an opponent that is not paralyzed, and not someone who is in the act of walking or running.
I always viewed mud to rock as you sensing the change, and jumping up before it was complete. I can vision a quick leap. An instantaneous sprint is a little harder though.
Ok... yeah, I've got to admit, I've got nothing on the grappling one lol. If you're on team A, and team B has a grappler/brute type and a caster and the caster wall of stone bubbles you in with your grappler, and said grappler wants to be locked in with you, your kind of screwed.
2 characters enter.
ONE CHARACTER LEAVES!
How is it overpowered? A Wall of Stone is at best a 1-2 turn speedbump before the enemy puts a hole in it. At worse, it wastes one enemy's turn and the rest come streaming through the hole.Not giving a save is the worst possible option. It completely overpowers the spell, and goes against the raw and rai of there being a save.As I said before, the movement is unworkable as well which is why I proposed a different solution in my first post in the thread..but randomly choosing a hole is more metagaming than I'm comfortable with.Then please explain how having someone try to block you off with a wall of stone lets you move, but a ball of fire doesn't?
I mean if my PC can move 10-15' when its not his turn because someone cast wall of stone, why not when they cast fireball?
-James
The spell comes in at 7th level. It only has 8 hardness and 15 hp.
PS: To anyone reading this I have not made my mind up already. I am just having trouble getting over the suspension of belief needed. I had to state that because it annoys me when people ask for advice when they don't really care what you have to say.
Ok... yeah, I've got to admit, I've got nothing on the grappling one lol. If you're on team A, and team B has a grappler/brute type and a caster and the caster wall of stone bubbles you in with your grappler, and said grappler wants to be locked in with you, your kind of screwed.2 characters enter.
ONE CHARACTER LEAVES!
LoL.
Another example is that paralyzed people get reflex saves. :)
Paralyzed PC: Nat 20. I escaped
Rest of the PC's:How did you do that? Well at least you can move
Paralyzed PC:Nope. I am still paralyzed.
The spell comes in at 7th level. It only has 8 hardness and 15 hp.
Yeh, and a Rogue without an adamantine weapon or two at that level should turn in his toolkit and black underwear. (Heck, even a few adamantine arrows or flasks of acid would work).
Sure, some rogue-type monsters might have some issues, but that's an edge case and I don't really mind if sometimes monsters get completely boned for being weird.
I believe the 3.0 wall of stone have the option of creating the stone ON the creature, trapping them carbonite style until they burst out of it like the Kool-Aid man, and that was the only time a Reflex save was called for. They took out the entrapping option in 3.5 but left in the exact same text for the actual save portion despite it no longer applying.
I believe the 3.0 wall of stone have the option of creating the stone ON the creature, trapping them carbonite style until they burst out of it like the Kool-Aid man, and that was the only time a Reflex save was called for. They took out the entrapping option in 3.5 but left in the exact same text for the actual save portion despite it no longer applying.
The 3.0 wording was identical.
I always viewed mud to rock as you sensing the change, and jumping up before it was complete. I can vision a quick leap. An instantaneous sprint is a little harder though.
There's not really anything in the spells that implies that one is more instantaneous than the other. I imagine both of the spells as coming into existence over a period of a few seconds.
The spell comes in at 7th level. It only has 8 hardness and 15 hp.
1)You need to be 9th level to cast the spell.
2) you (probably) need to be 12th level to trap anyone. The spell is shapable. The minimum dimension on a shapable spell is 10 feet, so you need to capture 4 squares. So if you're out in the open, you need 12 5 by 5 foot squares to catch anything. (two east, two west, two north, two south, and then four for a ceiling)
PS: To anyone reading this I have not made my mind up already. I am just having trouble getting over the suspension of belief needed. I had to state that because it annoys me when people ask for advice when they don't really care what you have to say.
The suspension of belief isn't in this spell: the suspension of belief is in the lock step movement system that's necessary for a tabletop game. Someone is always moving around and running around during a fight, so moving on "someone else s' turn" isn't unusual at all.
The wall might form relatively slowly out of existing materials , or someone might thrust out a sword as the wall tries to form around it, but since things in D&D already in existence have a right of way over things being conjured or teleported into their space the wall's formation is slowed until he gets out of the way.
Note to self: Make sure I have a masterworked Pick by 5th level if I'm playing a rogue in Wraithstrike's game.
I just want to make it make sense. :)
That is why I brought up the issue of a grappled victim also. After looking at the hardness and hit points I realize it is not as hard to break out as I thought. I will probably try it in a game to see how it works out.
Yes, the Reflex save does pose some inconsistencies in this case - they are inherent in the ruleset. Unless one wants to abandon the saving throw, one can only pick which inconsistency to accept, rather than avoiding them altogether.
The way I would probably run it is to allow the saving throw as normal and have the character stay in place even if he succeeds. Then on the character's turn, he would get the chance to move outside the wall, even though it is technically already there - the argument being that he was actually moving as the wall was being created, but in a system where everybody takes turnes, his movement action is only resolved on his turn. Yes, the explanation is a bit dubious, but this is an inherent problem with reflex saving throws in a system based on everybody taking turns.
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but jumping 15 feet or so without a running start as a nonaction is not too believable.
Think of it as "avoided the spell"
You don't have to get so mechanical and worry about how.
Could be they jumped up a few feet to stand on top.
Could be the spell malfunctioned and left a hole they can stand inside.
Could be any number of reasons.
It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile* opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.Does this mean they get to be outside of the area of the wall if they make the reflex save or the wall does not form. I understand it from a balance point of view, but jumping 15 feet or so without a running start as a nonaction is not too believable.
*I am assuming mobile means an opponent that is not paralyzed, and not someone who is in the act of walking or running.
Can we get this one FAQ'd?
bump