Okay, so in a few sessions I am going to be throwing an Elven strike team at my players. I already have a Ranger, Rouge (was thinking of assassin, but these elves are not evil), and I want to through in an Arcane Archer.
I know the fastest way to get there is 2 levels of fighter, and I do want to optimize (this encounter is meant to be memorable and extremely hard [a lesson as to why not to piss off the elves by trespassing on sacred grounds]) the Archer, but I am open to other ideas.
Things I was thinking was: casting class, which is better for flavor, which is better of mechanics. If this team is defeated, perhaps the archer survives and becomes a featured thorn in their side as the story progresses....
Any help/input would be appreciated. :)
Sorcerer is easy. That said, a wizard AA would probably have a spellbook that your party wizard would like to get his hands on, if you have a wizard.
If the PCs win, they'll want their goodies!
I know the fastest way to get there is 2 levels of fighter, and I do want to optimize (this encounter is meant to be memorable and extremely hard [a lesson as to why not to piss off the elves by trespassing on sacred grounds]) the Archer, but I am open to other ideas.
Actually, the fastest way is six levels of fighter (or any other full-bab class) and then one level of any full arcane-caster class, for entry to the PrC at level 8. If you take more than one level of a class that doesn't have a full BAB you'll have to wait until at least 9th level for the first level of Arcane Archer.
That said, I'd seriously consider going full Bard. As noted above, the Arcane Duelist variant from the APG would be very interesting indeed.
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Elves... Int bonus. Wizard is their natural arcane casting class.
Ranger 6 / Wizard(Evoker) 1 / AA is the flat out best option...
Improved Precise shot = win.
And with that many levels of ranger you get hunter's bond... select "Party" and he can give his bonuses to other strike team members.
And you'll have ranger spells... and let me tell you. Entangle messes up parties... especially when delivered on an arrow that plunks their caster in the chest before they even roll for initiative.
Ranger wizard done.
Elves... Int bonus. Wizard is their natural arcane casting class.
Ranger 6 / Wizard(Evoker) 1 / AA is the flat out best option...
Improved Precise shot = win.
And with that many levels of ranger you get hunter's bond... select "Party" and he can give his bonuses to other strike team members.
And you'll have ranger spells... and let me tell you. Entangle messes up parties... especially when delivered on an arrow that plunks their caster in the chest before they even roll for initiative.
Ranger wizard done.
I agree on all counts excepting Evoker. Really, pick a better specialization. Transmutation spells are better for a martial character, Conjurations are generally best in class and you could give him the Teleport-stepping ability which is very good.
Actually, strike that! Ranger is probably on par with Fighter, considering you can't just skip Point-Blank Shot because it is a prereq. That is the real advantage of a Ranger archer over the Fighter. Yes, you may not get Imp. Precise Shot at L6, but is that really going to matter in this instance?
You are probably better off going with Fighter, wearing heavier armor and outfitting him with a couple lesser rods of Still Spell, if you are going for optimized.
Though, knowing what level this NPC will be might help us give truly optimal advice. Right now it is somewhat conjectural.
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Elves... Int bonus. Wizard is their natural arcane casting class.
Ranger 6 / Wizard(Evoker) 1 / AA is the flat out best option...
Improved Precise shot = win.
And with that many levels of ranger you get hunter's bond... select "Party" and he can give his bonuses to other strike team members.
And you'll have ranger spells... and let me tell you. Entangle messes up parties... especially when delivered on an arrow that plunks their caster in the chest before they even roll for initiative.
Ranger wizard done.
I agree on all counts excepting Evoker. Really, pick a better specialization. Transmutation spells are better for a martial character, Conjurations are generally best in class and you could give him the Teleport-stepping ability which is very good.
Actually, strike that! Ranger is probably on par with Fighter, considering you can't just skip Point-Blank Shot because it is a prereq. That is the real advantage of a Ranger archer over the Fighter. Yes, you may not get Imp. Precise Shot at L6, but is that really going to matter in this instance?
You are probably better off going with Fighter, wearing heavier armor and outfitting him with a couple lesser rods of Still Spell, if you are going for optimized.
Though, knowing what level this NPC will be might help us give truly optimal advice. Right now it is somewhat conjectural.
Depends on how many AA levels...if you can get 3rd level spells... well... evoker. Simply cause you get MORE FIREBALLS to tack to your arrows and shoot from a mile and a half away. AA arrow damage + fireball... good lord.
Yes, my bad, sorry for the oversight, they will first encounter him and his strike force at level ten,AND if he gets away, they will probably encounter him again at level 17 or so.
At level 10, Ftr 4/Wiz 4/AA 2. Imbue Arrow is the money ability in AA, and 3rd lv spells are too good to pass up.
Evoker is good for an extra fireball, take the Admixture alternate school from the APG because Force Missile is worthless. Conjurer, Teleportation School, for Shift (10' Dim Door as a swift action) and shoot Stinking Clouds.
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I recommend Fighter (Archer build) 5/ Transmuter 2/Arcane Archer X. Ranger really doesn't get much over fighter, because the main advantage of Ranger (he can bypass point blank shot) for archery is totally negated by the class requirements.
I'd stay away from spells that allow saves, and focus instead of your amazing touch attack hit chances. Your caster level isn't going to be good and you're too MAD to have really good saves anyway, so I recommend focusing on what you will be good at: shooting the crap out of everything.
You get Weapon Training 1, Trick Shot, and 3 bonus feats (compared to 2 with Ranger 5). You also get the Transmuter Physical Enhancement power, which can help your MAD character out a lot. Assuming at least 8th level character and you don't mind a dumped Charisma, I'd do something like this with 20 point buy:
str 15+1(Transmuter ability)
dex 16+2+2 (level)
con 12-2
int 14+2
wis 10
cha 7
At level 10 (Archer 5/Transmuter 2/A.A. 3) you've got 20 dex and 16 strength before items. I'm going to assume no magical equipment, even without it you get a +1 enhancement bonus from the prestige class. Your full attack would look like this:
+12/+12/+7 to hit for 1d8+11 +1d6 elemental damage, with 2 arrows shot by the first attack roll. All of these stats are unbuffed. Cast Mage Armor, Gravity Bow, and Shield before combat starts and you'll have a pretty decent AC and you'll up the 1d8+11 to 2d6+11 (average 18 damage per hit).
Edited to reflect the correct level.
If he's R6, W1, AA3, he'll have 1 or 2 ranger spells (entangle, fo' sho!), and 2 or 3 2nd level wizard spells. Hitting the gang with webs after holding them still with the entangle would put them in a sticky situation.
That should give the elves plenty of time for some potshots. *evil grin*
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Depends on how many AA levels...if you can get 3rd level spells... well... evoker. Simply cause you get MORE FIREBALLS to tack to your arrows and shoot from a mile and a half away. AA arrow damage + fireball... good lord.
If you go for 3rd level spells, skip fireball. It's classic, yes, but at 10th level, with the low caster level you're going to have, plus the low save DC that your MAD dictates, most likely you're going to be adding 5d6, and most enemies will make the save, for an average of 17.5 damage extra IF none of the party has Evasion. You'd likely be going Fighter 4/Wizard 4/Arcane Archer 2, which gives you caster level 5.
If you go with my build above, you'd have DC 16 saves for Fireball. Even a character with a poor reflex save and a mediocre dexterity is going to have a pretty good chance of saving for half, and good reflex classes? Forget about it.
Instead, go for Haste if they get 3rd level spells. Haste on the Arcane Archer alone will out-damage that piss poor fireball, and his buddies would get it too. I'm not going to do the math here, but it's been shown plenty of times all over the forums: Haste out damages Fireball every single time.
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Depends on how many AA levels...if you can get 3rd level spells... well... evoker. Simply cause you get MORE FIREBALLS to tack to your arrows and shoot from a mile and a half away. AA arrow damage + fireball... good lord.If you go for 3rd level spells, skip fireball. It's classic, yes, but at 10th level, with the low caster level you're going to have, plus the low save DC that your MAD dictates, most likely you're going to be adding 5d6, and most enemies will make the save, for an average of 17.5 damage extra IF none of the party has Evasion. You'd likely be going Fighter 4/Wizard 4/Arcane Archer 2, which gives you caster level 5.
If you go with my build above, you'd have DC 16 saves for Fireball. Even a character with a poor reflex save and a mediocre dexterity is going to have a pretty good chance of saving for half, and good reflex classes? Forget about it.
Instead, go for Haste if they get 3rd level spells. Haste on the Arcane Archer alone will out-damage that piss poor fireball, and his buddies would get it too. I'm not going to do the math here, but it's been shown plenty of times all over the forums: Haste out damages Fireball every single time.
At 10th level... 3 arrows tagged with 5d6 fireballs are nothing to laugh at. Remember... this is AGAINST the party. Not against the monsters.
And with ranger you get other radius spells that can be used with imbue arrow. IE entangle. Start combat with an out of the blue entangle. Move to a web, then follow up with a 5d6+2d4 fireball...all the while using Hunter's bond to give the other attackers your favored enemy bonuses. And improved precise shot lets you pick on the easy to take down party members. Normally a tank will just stand between you and the wizard or sorc... with improved precise, thanks to 6 levels in ranger, you can just plug the caster constantly, burning anything near or just outright slaughtering him with rapid shot and perhaps manyshot.
Sure fighter is better for a single attacker... but as OP stated. This is an assault team. And ranger just flat plays well with others.
I'm a fan of the paladin/sorc route for arcane archer. It will give your spellcasting pcs a hard time if they are going for SoD/SoS. and gives him a better chance at survival till level 17. Main problem, no 3rd level spells. also he has to be LG. I don't know what your PCs are, but if they trespassed on sacred ground that this paladin was protecting that gives him fair reason to whoop them good.
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First I want to apologize for a few errors in the math in the previous post. I'm double checking this time before posting :D
At 10th level... 3 arrows tagged with 5d6 fireballs are nothing to laugh at. Remember... this is AGAINST the party. Not against the monsters.
And with ranger you get other radius spells that can be used with imbue arrow. IE entangle. Start combat with an out of the blue entangle. Move to a web, then follow up with a 5d6+2d4 fireball...all the while using Hunter's bond to give the other attackers your favored enemy bonuses. And improved precise shot lets you pick on the easy to take down party members. Normally a tank will just stand between you and the wizard or sorc... with improved precise, thanks to 6 levels in ranger, you can just plug the caster constantly, burning anything near or just outright slaughtering him with rapid shot and perhaps manyshot.
Sure fighter is better...
At 10 total character levels, there's no way to get Ranger 6, Imbue Arrow, and 3rd level spells. It just doesn't work. You couldn't even get Ranger 6 and 3rd level spells, period. If you want 3rd level spells, your best bet is to go Ranger 4/Evoker 4/A.A. 2, lowering your total BAB by 1.
Even if you Imbue a fireball, you only get 1 arrow with fireball per turn, not 3. Imbue Arrow let's you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action into an arrow, and then fire that arrow, all as a single standard action. This is actually worse than a full attack with Manyshot and Rapid shot, you actually lose damage.
If the party has a +5 (+3 for poor save, +1 dex, +1 for Cloak of Resistance, and this is really low balling it) then each person has a 50/50 chance of making the save; on a failed save, average damage is 17.5, on a successful, it's average 8.75 damage. Add the 1d8+10 (you had to give up Weapon Spec and Weapon Training if you went Ranger) the one arrow did to your target.
If you want 3rd level spells, go Fighter (archer build) 4/Transmuter 4/Arcane Archer 2.
Compare that to doing a full attack with Haste and Gravity Bow. Your attack is +11/+11/+11/+6 to hit*. The first attack is two arrows, the rest are 1 each, and every arrow does 2d6+12**.
There's really no comparison. Haste wins even when excluding the straight Ranger and the Rogue, who have Favored Enemy and Sneak Attack, both of which benefit massively from gaining an extra attack. Especially when you consider that this damage can be focus-fired to take enemies down very quickly. A wizard or sorcerer will likely be hit with every attack, for 10d6+60 damage total, which is likely enough to kill him in one turn.
*Bonuses to attack are: +8 BAB, +5 Dexterity, +1 Weapon Focus,+1 Enhance Arrow, +1 Haste, -3 Deadly Aim, -2 Rapid Shot
**Bonuses to damage are: +6 Deadly Aim, +2 Weapon Specialization, +3 Strength bow, +1 Enhance Arrow
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Just adding that I think Imbue Arrow is pretty much a waste of a turn, as it prevents you from using your full attack. Instead, use those 3rd level spells to pre-buff.
There are plenty of great 3rd level spells to choose from other than Haste, many of which last 1 or 10 minutes/level, including Keen Edge, Fly, Flame Arrow or Heroism. Combine any of those with Haste and full attack every single turn and you can take characters down extremely quickly.
Also, if you are only to take Fighter 4, consider taking the Weapon Master ACF, as you will get Weapon Training 1 for your bow. If you could take the Grapple or Trip trick shots at level three this wouldn't be better, but the options for low-level Archer ACF just aren't as good as Weapon Training.
I made an Arcane Archer for the Kingmaker campaign I'm in. I went Ranger6/Wizard (Trans)1/AA3. As someone else mentioned, transmutation is nice because of the physical stat bump.
Wow! Thank you guys, you have given me a lot to think about!
So far I have a ranger in the group already, and he will be an archer as well. Maybe I'll make him and AA as well and test them both against the PC's to see which does better.
I have a rouge (archer) and I have decided I will wave the evil requirement on the assassin PC.
The druid whom they blew off and offended by violating sacred grounds (despite being warned against this by the druid), will be a part of this group.
and I really like the idea of the paladin.... one of the PC's is evil too (and it is his disregard for the sacred that help lead them into this in the first place)...
I know the fastest way to get there is 2 levels of fighter, and I do want to optimize (this encounter is meant to be memorable and extremely hard [a lesson as to why not to piss off the elves by trespassing on sacred grounds]) the Archer, but I am open to other ideas.Actually, the fastest way is six levels of fighter (or any other full-bab class) and then one level of any full arcane-caster class, for entry to the PrC at level 8. If you take more than one level of a class that doesn't have a full BAB you'll have to wait until at least 9th level for the first level of Arcane Archer.
That said, I'd seriously consider going full Bard. As noted above, the Arcane Duelist variant from the APG would be very interesting indeed.
Actually if you go for one level of non full bab class you might as well go for 2. After all you don't lose bab on the second level (since that's when you get the increase), and with bard you can go to level 4 without loss of another point of BAB.
Since we have ten levels to do this in some thoughts would be:
Bard 5, Ranger 3 AA 2 (second level spells)
A witch could have some fun with this:
Witch 2, Fighter(archer archtype) 5, AA 3
If magus is available AA can turn him into a sweet switch hitter:
Magus 4, Fighter 3, AA 3
-- By the way: it's rogue not rouge. We aren't doing make up here.
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Just for clarification: though I think there's a case to be made for Fighter 4/Transmuter 4/Arcane Archer 2, I think that for this level, Fighter 5/Transmuter 2/Arcane Archer 3 will be better.
Witch could be interesting, but the wizard has a much better spell list for this purpose, and the hexes will have such low DCs (due to the low Witch level) that they won't be worth using, and other than that there's no real reason to go Witch.
I've found the only prestige classes they multi class into well are eldritch knight and pathfinder savant -- that said though I think it's less a case of poor class design as it is a well written class that you don't want to leave.
Witch does offer some interesting points though -- it can heal, reach spell would be a good choice for distance buffing/debuffing between shots from the bow (or as is tactically a good idea). While I agree the save DC's won't be perfect they won't be horrible either -- against the right target (low save throw target) they will still stick -- and even if they don't many last at least a round anyways.
Finally you can take the hexes that don't have a save throw -- Ward practically jumps to mind as a great party sharing buff hex, and fortune isn't bad either (especially if you pick up cackle, and use it during the rounds you cast spells).
Over all I would use it as a "switch hitter" type using spells instead of a melee weapon.
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Just for clarification: though I think there's a case to be made for Fighter 4/Transmuter 4/Arcane Archer 2, I think that for this level, Fighter 5/Transmuter 2/Arcane Archer 3 will be better.
Witch could be interesting, but the wizard has a much better spell list for this purpose, and the hexes will have such low DCs (due to the low Witch level) that they won't be worth using, and other than that there's no real reason to go Witch.
** spoiler omitted **
You're right. You'll come just short with 6 ranger.
But I think ranger just rings better for an elf. Elven rangers are basically their primary physical class.
Ranger just makes more sense and I think is a better pick due to skill selection (IE STEALTH, which NO fighter has as a class skill) and perception bonuses with favored terrain. Not to mention improved precise, which a fighter SIMPLY CANT GET at that level. Then there is hunters bond, two favored enemies, favored terrain. No brainer I think.
Fighter is nice... but in the given situation its just too much minmaxing on the part of the DM. Sure he may hit a little harder... but who cares... he's still one hell of an odd duck to be throwing at a party. In the end they'll be like "Wait...he was a what?"
Where if he's a ranger they won't give it a second thought.
Depending on race Ranger can come out a lot worse for a party than fighter.
Fighter with 5 levels is going to have weapon focus weapon specialization and weapon training 1 at most -- +2 to hit +3 on damage.
Depending on race with the ranger (or if you take the guide archtype) you have a +2 to hit and damage or a +4 to hit and damage. Guide and it's +4 on two opponents per day -- that's pretty harsh, and honestly a lot nastier than a fighter since the ranger also has prime pick of the best ranged feats without having to meet prerequisites.
Add on the two good saves, extra spells, hunter's bond (as mentioned), and the extra skills/skill points and he just looks a lot nastier for a dip than the fighter can hope to.
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 2/Arcane Archer 1
Sets the Arcane Archer up to be way more awesome at 17 when he looks like:
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 7/Arcane Archer 3
This kind of build takes a little hit earlier, since you lose all your BAB early on in the progression, but your spells are better sooner and you never lose BAB again after hitting 7th level. Make up for the BAB loss with buff spells and you're fine. Heroism is great.
Fly, improved invis, haste party, rain death.
At 20th level this build also has all iterative attacks, 9th level spells, spell critical from Eldritch Knight and Imbue Arrow for anti-magic field shenanigans. Fun times.
Depending on race Ranger can come out a lot worse for a party than fighter.
Fighter with 5 levels is going to have weapon focus weapon specialization and weapon training 1 at most -- +2 to hit +3 on damage.
Well later on there are 15k gp gloves that improve weapon training by 2.
Also if you are going ranger6 you get improved precise shot 7 levels earlier, which if you're not playing up to 13th or spending a lot of time getting up that high makes a +4 to hit difference a good amount of the time (and even when it doesn't you'd rather that there was cover between you and your target).
-James
You are of course correct, however I was discussing for the particular case the OP is asking about -- since these are NPCs they won't have much wealth by level, and they are not highly likely to be showing up on a regular enough basis for it to matter (especially if they are a combat encounter for the party -- one way or another -- if it's not a combat encounter then... well most of this stuff ceases to matter).
Nice advice
The problem is this is a specific encounter, for a GM, at a specific level -- the higher levels matter a lot less when you aren't planning for them.
For flavor and variety, you could pick up a level or two of barbarian as well. Properly equipped he could pick up +2 damage, +10 movement and moment of clarity. Would work especially well if you used his spells to prebuff.
Nice adviceThe problem is this is a specific encounter, for a GM, at a specific level -- the higher levels matter a lot less when you aren't planning for them.
Right on. I saw some people talking about playing them and even the OP mentioned possibly making a PC like it or something. Just figured I'd throw (what I consider at least) the best PC build for Arcane Archer out there.
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Urban Barbarian 6/Transmuter 1/AA x is also an interesting combo. Decent skills, very high attack bonus through controlled rage and Reckless Abandon rage power and a combination that no one can expect. He can also work as a melee machine should come to blows, a potion of lesser restoration mean he can easily change between dexterity-based rage while in range and strength one when confronted in melee. Then have him go to town an elven curved blade in case the players haven't yet gotten hint that these are elite elven units!