Hi all
I just wanted to ask some questions about dispel magic/greater dispel magic.
The description talks about dispelling against a check of 11 + opponent caster level.
Now if an opponent has multiple spells of different level is the check the same for all or different for all?
For example against a level 12 caster with Stoneskin, Fly, Mirror Image and Sheild up are they all cast at caster level 12 and all have a dispelling DC of 23?
Or do you go on what level needed to cast the spell (so CL 1 for sheild, CL 3 for mirror image etc)
My guess is option 1 but the description in the spell description of the SRD (citing a CL6 Fly and a CL12 Stoneskin) confuses me a lot.
Second question: the spell also says that you can dispel with a DC of the spell DC instead of 11 + Caster if you specifically state what spell you are dispelling.
Now I may be being daft here but how can you know what spells the target has on? If an opponent is flying how can you know whether it is levitate, fly or overland flight? Is there any way of knowing if someone has stoneskin up? Is shield and mage armour visible? If you see lots of images how do you know if it is mirror image or creative use of other illusion spells. (Also trying to avoid metagaming too)
Sorry if it is a daft question but it is not really an issue i have encountered before
1) The check's the same. Confusing, but it's trying to illustrate how it can differ. It needs to say that the spells have different casters. If it said 7th lvl for Stoneskin and 5th for Fly then that would make sense tho.
2)Spellcraft check.
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all have a dispelling DC of 23?
how can you know what spells the target has on?
Yes DC 23.
You know if you saw him cast it, you believe (whether or not you are right) he has something.
So if you believe he has Fly, you target fly, and he doesn't have Fly but boots of flying, then you fail whether or not you made a DC 23.
all have a dispelling DC of 23?
how can you know what spells the target has on?Yes DC 23.
You know if you saw him cast it, you believe (whether or not you are right) he has something.
So if you believe he has Fly, you target fly, and he doesn't have Fly but boots of flying, then you fail whether or not you made a DC 23.
There is a way to determine what spells the caster has on him, but it's a 7th level spell, Greater Arcane Sight.
I am on the fence wishing there was an easier (cheaper) way to find out. But I think in the end, it is better you don't know (without Greater Arcane Sight) as it would be too easy to pick and choose what spells to take down.
all have a dispelling DC of 23?
how can you know what spells the target has on?Yes DC 23.
You know if you saw him cast it, you believe (whether or not you are right) he has something.
So if you believe he has Fly, you target fly, and he doesn't have Fly but boots of flying, then you fail whether or not you made a DC 23.
There is a way to determine what spells the caster has on him, but it's a 7th level spell, Greater Arcane Sight.
I am on the fence wishing there was an easier (cheaper) way to find out.
umm, Spellcraft check.
You can’t determine existing spells on characters unless 1) you were able to determine the spell at the time of casting (Spellcraft check) or 2) you use Greater Arcane Sight.
Or 3 rounds with a Detect Magic.
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You can’t determine existing spells on characters unless 1) you were able to determine the spell at the time of casting (Spellcraft check) or 2) you use Greater Arcane Sight.
Or the spell has a really obvious visible effect.
Granted, that won't tell you if the effect is from a permanent item, or cast from memory, scroll, wand or potion, but beggars can't be choosers.
Even Detect Magic will not allow you to determine what exact spells are on the character. The best it will tell you is what school the spell(s) is(are) from and the strength of the auras.
Detect Magic: 3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.)
Or the spell has a really obvious visible effect.
Granted, that won't tell you if the effect is from a permanent item, or cast from memory, scroll, wand or potion, but beggars can't be choosers.
Well, it makes a big difference if the effect is from a spell or permanent item. If you try to cast Dispel Magic on Fly, but he has Winged Boots. Your spell fails.
So yes, you can be beggars and choosers with Greater Arcane Sight.
umm, Spellcraft check.
Actually, a Spellcraft check won't do it. Though a Knowledge-Arcana would (DC 20 + spell level). It would, however, still take three rounds with a Detect Magic spell, unless there was some visually observable effect with the spell.
Now I may be being daft here but how can you know what spells the target has on?
Seeing it in action. Its not a spellcraft check though. Spellcraft is for when you see it being cast, one of knowledge arcana's (spellcrafts little brother) abilities is to id spells in action
Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level
You probably have to see it work though, you need to see them fly, or see the archers arrows bounce off the stoneskin.
under spellcraft
Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors. Learning a spell from a spellbook takes 1 hour per level of the spell (0-level spells take 30 minutes). Preparing a spell from a borrowed spellbook does not add any time to your spell preparation. Making a Spellcraft check to craft a magic item is made as part of the creation process. Attempting to ascertain the properties of a magic item takes 3 rounds per item to be identified and you must be able to thoroughly examine the object.
Now I may be being daft here but how can you know what spells the target has on?
This what my original point was, you can’t tell. With the exception of 1)identifying the spell with Spellcraft when it is cast or 2) using Greater Arcane Sight.
Greater Arcane Sight This spell functions like arcane sight, except that you automatically know which spells or magical effects are active upon any individual or object you see.
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The description talks about dispelling against a check of 11 + opponent caster level.
Now if an opponent has multiple spells of different level is the check the same for all or different for all?
For example against a level 12 caster with Stoneskin, Fly, Mirror Image and Sheild up are they all cast at caster level 12 and all have a dispelling DC of 23?
Or do you go on what level needed to cast the spell (so CL 1 for sheild, CL 3 for mirror image etc)
My guess is option 1 but the description in the spell description of the SRD (citing a CL6 Fly and a CL12 Stoneskin) confuses me a lot.
The important point is the DC scales to match the caster level of the person who cast the spell.
In your first example, of a level 12 caster whose buffs are all self-cast, they would all be DC23.
In the second example, from the spell description, that opponent may have cast the Stoneskin on himself, and had a cohort (or multi-classed ally of lower caster level) cast the Fly at effective caster level 6, which would thus be proportionally easier to beat.
You also have to situation where an opponent has a mixture of spell effects running, from himself, his allies, cohorts, scrolls, wands, potions...
It can get confusing, so get the players into the habit of keeping a 'buff sheet', which, as well as listing the bonuses (and types!), has a little entry for caster level. That way, you don't have a lively debate over whose Fly spell came from the party Wizard, and which from his level 5 wand, when an area dispel hits them in mid-flight over a pool of molten lava.
umm, Spellcraft check.Actually, a Spellcraft check won't do it. Though a Knowledge-Arcana would (DC 20 + spell level). It would, however, still take three rounds with a Detect Magic spell, unless there was some visually observable effect with the spell.
You just have to see it being cast. Otherwise, you're right.
umm, Spellcraft check.Actually, a Spellcraft check won't do it. Though a Knowledge-Arcana would (DC 20 + spell level). It would, however, still take three rounds with a Detect Magic spell, unless there was some visually observable effect with the spell.
Ok, I stand corrected. You are right, you can determine what the exact spell is through a DC 20 + spell level Knowledge Arcana check.
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Well, it seems that's another part of 3.5 that never made the jump.
Spellcraft (Int; Trained only)
Use this skill to identify spells as they are cast or spells already in place.DC20 + spell level: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
Is that a deliberate change?
I find it bizarre that Spellcraft can identify a spell being cast, when casters can be from different power sources, different magical traditions, different cultures, be using secret or planar languages, can be using metamagic (that the viewer doesn't know), alternate foci or materials, casting from domains not on their classes' main list, speak languages the viewers don't know...
...but won't identify the same spell, a second later, from its visible effects.
To illustrate:
Shaman of the Lost God of the Lost Tribe of the Lost Land Cut off from the World by a Magical Veil: Oompa Loompa! Stick it up your jumper!
Explorer 1: Good God, Carruthers! He's casting Stoneskin!
SotLGotLTofLLcoftWbaMV: <casts spell, then walks out of his hut>
Explorer 2: Good God, Cholmondoley! That blighter's got a stone skin! How in the blue blazes did he do that?
Explorer 1: Well, I'll be damned if I know, Carruthers. It's a complete mystery. I've never heard of such a thing!
I think they wanted to make knowledge arcana useful , since spell craft was doing so much more.
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I think they wanted to make knowledge arcana useful , since spell craft was doing so much more.
I think you're right. I find it unclear when Spellcraft and Know (arcana) are applicable, and it isn't always consistent within published adventures, either.
Having to spend skill points on both, just to second-guess the whims of the writer/GM, is exactly the sort of skill tax I hoped to see the back of, like jiggering a lock being (apparently) a totally different skill set from jiggering the trigger on a trap.
Given the number of skills that did get consolidated, does anyone else believe there's a case for doing away with the Spellcraft skill altogether?*
Make the 'Spell Craft' roll be a specific function of the relevant Knowledge skill? (In the way 'tumbling' is a specific usage of Acrobatics)
Then, you identify an arcane spell, because you have the Know (arcane) skill, a divine spell via your Know (religion), you know a devil's spell-like abilities using Know (planes), and you know what an abberation's doing with its disgusting pseudopods via Know (dungeoneering).
It also allows for new magical traditions to be introduced (hello, psionics!), with their specific Knowledges, without muddying the issue of whether they're covered by existing Spellcraft skill ranks, negating the need (or temptation) to clog the game with Psicraft, Jujucraft, Kicraft, Runecraft, etc.
We know the answer to this is that the DC is the same for all the spells by a specific caster, but if there are 3 spells with DC 23 and the dispel check is 24, which spell gets dispelled? The lowest level spell? The spell with the lowest DC? I can't seem to find this answer in the dispel magic description.The description talks about dispelling against a check of 11 + opponent caster level.
Now if an opponent has multiple spells of different level is the check the same for all or different for all?
For example against a level 12 caster with Stoneskin, Fly, Mirror Image and Sheild up are they all cast at caster level 12 and all have a dispelling DC of 23?
The spell dispels the highest level spell, as per the desc.
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The spell dispels the highest level spell, as per the desc.We know the answer to this is that the DC is the same for all the spells by a specific caster, but if there are 3 spells with DC 23 and the dispel check is 24, which spell gets dispelled? The lowest level spell? The spell with the lowest DC? I can't seem to find this answer in the dispel magic description.The description talks about dispelling against a check of 11 + opponent caster level.
Now if an opponent has multiple spells of different level is the check the same for all or different for all?
For example against a level 12 caster with Stoneskin, Fly, Mirror Image and Sheild up are they all cast at caster level 12 and all have a dispelling DC of 23?
I would do that too, but I don't think the spell description supports it.
Really?
Dispel Magic: '...Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell.
Now if an opponent has multiple spells of different level is the check the same for all or different for all?For example against a level 12 caster with Stoneskin, Fly, Mirror Image and Sheild up are they all cast at caster level 12 and all have a dispelling DC of 23?
Of course, if the spells came from different sources (with different caster levels), then you would have different dispelling DCs, too.
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We know the answer to this is that the DC is the same for all the spells by a specific caster, but if there are 3 spells with DC 23 and the dispel check is 24, which spell gets dispelled? The lowest level spell? The spell with the lowest DC? I can't seem to find this answer in the dispel magic description.
I'd dice for it randomly, myself.
Assuming, of course, the dispeller hasn't already identified a specific spell he wants to aim for from those 3 spells.