Hello there,
I am currently creating some alternative PCs in case my paladin will die. Hopefully, this will never happen, but nevertheless I have fun in "building" PCs. What I had in mind was the following concept. It is not traditionally optimized, but I hope survivable and able to contribute as a frontline fighter. It's 25 Point-buy
First a probably simple question: Will the DR of the invulnerable rager stack with DR of "Chaos Totem, Greater"? If yes, the build would have a DR12 (only if the opponents don't use +5 or lawful weapons).
I like the concept but would adjust some things(feats, rage powers, items, skills). Probably I didn't go for the most useful items. Is my calculation for the +3 adamantine Greatsword correct? (22.050 GP)
Some things I already considered (race, falchion-use, intimidate-chain) and will not change. Thanks for reading.
12th level Human Barbarian
Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+6) (16+2racial+2level+2belt), 28(+9) when raging
DEX: 16 (+3) (13+2belt+1Level)
CON: 16 (+3) (14+2belt), 22 (+7) when raging
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 14 (+2)
CHA: 12 (+1)
Hit dice: 12+11d12(71) +36Con +12fav. class= 131 HP
Speed: 40feet
Saves:
Fort/Ref/Will class8/4/4 + stats3/3/2 + magic4/4/4 + feats0/0/2 = 15/11/12 (raging: 18/11/15, immune to shaken and frightened conditions) (w/ Boots of Speed: 15/12/12, raging: 18/12/15)
Armor Class: (Mithral Breastplate; AC Penalty: -1, Max Dex: +5)
Normal: 28 (10 base, +10armor, +3Dex, +1Dodge, +2Ring, +2Amulet) 29 (w/ BoS)
Raging: 26 or 29 when activating Guarded Stance (27/30 w/ BoS)
Feats:
Weapon Focus (Greatsword)(Human), Power Attack(1), Dodge(3), Iron Will(5), Vital Strike(7), Improved Critical(9), Improved Vital Strike(11)
Rage (29 rounds/day) – Rage Powers: Chaos Totem, lesser(2nd), Guarded Stance (4th,+3dodge to AC, 6 rounds), Chaos Totem (6th), Clear Mind (8th), Chaos Totem greater(10th), Fearless Rage(12th)
CMD: 10+12BAB+6Str+3Dex+2Defl.+1Dodge = 34 (37 when raging, 40 with guarded stance)
Attacks:
Full Attack Greatsword: (+12BAB+6Str+3weapon+1WF) +22/+17/+12, damage: 2d6+12, Rage: +25/+20/+15, 2d6+16, PA: +18/+13/+8, 2d6+24, Rage: +21/+16/+11, 2d6+28 (Threat: 17-20, x2)
Single Attack: +22, 6d6+12, Rage: +25, 6d6+16. PA: +18, 6d6+24, Rage: +21, 6d6+28
Longbow: +14/+9/+4, d8+7
other class features:
DR6/-
+DR6/lawful
chaotic weapon (chaos totem feature)
Cold Resistance 4
Endure Elements (Cold)
Greater Rage
Gear (108,000)
Belt of physical perfection+4 16.000
Mithral Breastplate+4 20.200
(Chaotic) Adamantine Greatsword+3 22.050
Cloak of resistance+4 16.000
Ring of Protection+1 8.000
Amulet of nat. armour+1 8.000
(Chaotic) Comp. Longbow+1 (+6St) 2.600
Boots of Speed 12.000
104.850
Skill Rank class stat spec. total
Perception 12 3 2 +17
Acrobatics 12 3 4 +19
Survival 12 3 2 +17
Swim 6 3 6 +15
Climb 6 3 6 +15
Diplomacy 12 1 +13
Unfortunately DR 6/- and DR 6/lawful will not stack.
Yes, unfortunately the DR 6/lawful is completely redundant with the DR 6/-. That's too bad because it was a pretty good idea.
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Pro-tip: Common gamer superstition dictates that creating back-up characters is bad luck and thus frowned upon.
In a less superstitious interpretation, it sometimes makes people feel like they would care less if their current character died and thus don't try as hard or take bigger risks than they otherwise would to give their character a chance to die.
Either way, bad juju.
My advice: Don't ever write anything down when you have concept character ideas that match the level you're playing at. You can pour over rules and know exactly what you'd do, but having it outright ready-to-go is too much. If you're near the end of a campaign and the premise for the next one is set it's generally acceptable to make a character intended for the *next* campaign, but not the current one, and even then only if the two are not linked (i.e. will have to use different characters).
@stabbittyDoom: Thanx for your advice. Good thing I am not superstitious. Even though exactly the thing you mentioned happened to me once, 6 or 7 years ago (in a system called Midgard).
@Coriat & avalonXQ: Thank you for the enlightenment and comments. Now I searched for it and found it too:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Damage-Reductio n
Hmm. I will do a new attempt then.
Thanks again.
A +2 furious *anything* will net you a +4 *samething* for the price of a +3 *samething* (I think it was a sort of patch for barbarian).
Also, a Falchion will net more damage because of the extra chances of making a critical. Note that Improved citical may be a very good feat but you can emulate it with the kenn property.
Vital Strike chain its a trap, its too circuntancial and the bonus is to small. Dodge and Weapon Focus are fine but Extra Rage power is way better:
Superticious + Moment of clarity (in the first round or the round you expect to be buffed) + Witch hunter(bonus damage against half the bestiary) = Win, making Fearleess unnecessary and freeing space for Come and Get Me and Combat Reflexes, wich is a nice pick taking into acount your AC and DR.
Humbly,
Yawar
Pro-tip: Common gamer superstition dictates that creating back-up characters is bad luck and thus frowned upon.
In a less superstitious interpretation, it sometimes makes people feel like they would care less if their current character died and thus don't try as hard or take bigger risks than they otherwise would to give their character a chance to die.
Bah! Amateurs.
I have had a backup for Drake and he still lives. And that is after he directly attacked the rest of the party with the direct intention to kill (and he took the party's wizard from 115 HP to 15 HP in one round, too)!
Okay, okay, he was possessed at the time, and the party cleric simply exorcised him with a quick application of divine magic.
It was still fun.
It was even more awesome when I had these nighttime bounds of going to sleep, being possessed by some b%$#&#*, self-proclamed god from 30000 years ago, and then brutally murder people and turn them into flesh golems that have animal extremeties on human torsos.
It's fun what a party that isn't paying attention will miss:
Drake was possessed when we were fighting the previous vessel - the guy outlived his usefulness, so the godling-possessing-the-schmuck went over to me, and then gave me the impulse to kill the old victim (I was too strong to control completely all the time, but impulses and nighttime possession was possible).
So I just broke the guy's neck. And nobody commented. As one of the city's Lords Protector, and in fact the city's High Justicator, that should have lead to weird looks at least. But nobody cared. The horrific murders were finally at an end.
So in the next couple of days/weeks my character gets these nightmares, is often exhausted when he wakes up (because his body was up all night doing nefarious deeds), or maybe even having a headache.
I even mention that "I get a coffee, because I'm dead tired!" or "Another meeting with the merchants? They're boring and loud, and I already have a headache!". Nobody took any notice. And this is funny, because while I don't switch off until we roll init or anything, I usually don't recount stuff like "I'm tired" with any character, and this character is known for not speaking much, especially not small talk. Because small talk is trivial, irrelevant. He is also known for never heaving emotional outbursts, which for Drake means telling others he feels tired or has a headache. Such things are weaknesses and should not be told others. One should strive closer to perfection so he doesn't get this stuff.
I didn't tell them about the nightmares or premonitions I had (the GM and I managed to pull the passing of hand-outs containing descriptions of the visions pretty well. The players never knew. He demanded all our sheets from time to time, pretending to write stuff down - only mine sported extra pages afterwards!)
So on the evening where we had a big meeting with the city to tell them that the murders are officially over, the murderer dead (the rest didn't even suspect that the curse was passed on. I did suspect, but Drake was not about to tell anyone. Maybe this power could be mastered, the possessor enslaved, the power harnessed), we get a "note from a friend". We were to come to some house. The captain of the city watch said a child had brought this for us.
So of course we go there and there's a new victim, attacking us in flesh golem form. We used speak with dead to try to find out who the murderer is, but of course, it's no use - the guy was cloaked. The victim did say he was murdered with bare hands (guess who's playing a monk!), but if godlings are walking about killing people, you can expect them to be able to kill commoners without resorting to weapons.
Now the real fun starts:
The party's conjurer teleports to our capital, Silverymoon, to find more about some ancient texts we found (and I totally recognised) about some old evil, and I joined him, saying I wanted to help him (I really wanted to do my own investigation to find clues for my endeavour to enslave whatever might be possessing me, if anything did).
At the same time, the rest of the party went looking for the kid who brought the message. And, while I was a way, they find it. They ask it who gave him the message, and it DESCRIBES MY CHARACTER! A really tall, somewhat muscular guy with blond hair combed back in a severe fashion, wearing all black and not carrying any weapon.
NOBODY (except me, whose character was not there) RECOGNISED IT! NOT IN THE LEAST!
So they want the kid to come back next day and describe the guy as well as he could to an artist (yes, we invented the photofit). The wizard and my character (who knew nothing of contacting that kid, of course, because he wasn't himself at the time) returned in the evening, heard of the developments, and decided to stick around the next day to meet the kid.
Of course, the boy came into our throne room, saw Drake, recognised him on the spot, and did what you can expect: Pointed at my character and said: "That was the man!"
At that point, the GM tells me: "You want to kill your companions."
I win init, and, standing directly beside the party wizard, get to work.
I can tell you one thing: As a wizard, you definitely don't want to start combat directly next to a monk with Stunning Fist and Medusa's Wrath. He was hit like half a million times, stunned, and probably knew that he had no chance at all of surviving another round.
Luckily (or not, depending on your point of view :D), the cleric used magic to end the possession, and I was myself again.
But it's amazing: A whole party not remembering what my character looked like. Especially after I made sure he did not look like every other monk out there.
Well, I got to beat up the wizard without repercussions :D.
I am sorry, but can we just skip my death wish. I already said that I like to create characters. Probably even other players in our group will use my machinations. It already happened.
@Yawar Fiesta: Thanks for the recommendations.
I thought about the superstitious variant. It's good IMO, but I can not imagine to play a magic-hater while wearing a christmas tree of magic items and working together with a wizard/Sorcerer/witch... in my group.
Just fluff, but that plays an important role in our sessions.
I already wrote in the entry post that I won't use a falchion. Although its better.
Your probably right about the vital strike chain. But if I consider the time I have only standard attacks with my pally, I'd think it might be worth the feats (albeit only with the greatsword)
I am currently thinking of replacing the Chaos Totem Chain by the Beast Totem Chain.
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Beast totem is good. Note that since you'll eventually be pouncing, the Vital Strike tree becomes even less worthwhile (and generally it is crap anyway). Dropping those gives you more room for extra rage powers like Come and Get Me and the Elemental Rage powers.
What might you think about this?
Feats
1 Power Attack
1b Weapon Focus
3 Dodge
5 Iron Will
9 Improved Critical
11 Extra Rage Power
13 Extra Rage Power
Rage Powers
2 Lesser Beast Totem
4 Lesser Elemental Rage
6 Beast Totem
8 Elemental Rage
10 Greater Beast Totem
11 Flesh Wound
12 Come and Get Me
13 Greater Elemental Rage
Just about the same as you were doing but a bit more focused on being a hardass and laying down damage.
That looks quite cool, YuenglingDragon. I am definitly going to kick out the vital strike chain when using the beast totem. I will have a look at the rage powers you suggested. I just thought about taking Increased Damage Reduction for the invulnerable Rager variant (2-3 times), but I don't know if it's worth it.
The Feats Level 1-9 you listed I definitely want to have for my character. To take extra rage powers seems a good idea. I will post my new build soon.
Wouldn't I need "Combat Reflexes" for "Come and Get me"?
This is my next take on the invulnerable rager. I am still not sure if the elemental rage line is worth it. I could skip the feat Extra Rage at 7th Level for Combat Reflexes and then go for "Come and get me" instead of "Flesh Wound" at Level 12. But this would result in such a lot of damage against the barbarian that someone in the party has to heal after the fight.
Now the barb can rage 35 Rounds (instead of 29) per day, which should be enough for raging all the time (assuming 5 battles w/ ca. 7 rounds each per day).
Guarded Stance is out; it takes a move action to activate and now while raging with the beast totem I gain a natural armour bonus of +4 (instead of the +2 bonus of the amulet when not raging)
I don't want to give up "Clear Mind" since the barbarian has quite a good will save (15 while raging) and the chances of fumbling two times are a lot less than one time.
I could go for a +3 ring of deflection (18.000 gp) and skip the amulet of nat. armour, because I only need it when not raging. But that would mean +2.000 gp. I need some money for clothes, potions and so on.
Maybe throw out the bow and hope to find one soon?
I am not sure if should have winged boots at level 12 because of the amount of airborne opponents.
STR: 22 (+6) (16+2 racial+2level+2belt), 28(+9) when raging
DEX: 16 (+3) (13+2belt+1Level)
CON: 16 (+4) (14+2belt), 22 (+7) when raging
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 14 (+2)
CHA: 12 (+1)
Hit dice: 12+11d12(71) +36Con +12fav. class= 131 HP
Speed: 40
Saves:
Fort/Ref/Will 8/4/4 + 3/3/2 + 4/4/4 + 0/0/2 = 15/11/12 (raging: 18/11/15) (w/ BoS: 15/12/12, raging: 18/12/15)
Armor Class: (Mithral Breastplate; AC Penalty: -1, Max Dex: +5)
Normal: 28 (10 base, +10armor, +3Dex, +1Dodge, +2Ring, +2Amulet) 29 (w/ Boots of Speed)
Raging: 28 (Beast totem: natural armour+4) (29 w/ BoS)
Feats:
Weapon Focus (Greatsword)(Human), Power Attack(1), Dodge(3), Iron Will(5), Extra Rage(7), Improved Critical(9), Extra Rage Power(11)
Rage (35 rounds/day) – Rage Powers: Beast Totem, lesser (2nd), Elemental Rage, lesser(4th), Beast Totem(6th), Clear Mind (8th), Beast Totem, Greater (10th), Elemental Rage (11th) Flesh Wound (12th)
CMD: 10+12BAB+6Str+3Dex+2Defl.+1Dodge = 34 (37 when raging)
Attacks:
FA Greatsword: (+12BAB+6Str+3weapon+1WF) +22/+17/+12, damage: 2d6+12, Rage: +25/+20/+15, 2d6+16+d6energy, PA: +18/+13/+8, 2d6+24, Rage: +21/+16/+11, 2d6+28+d6energy (Threat: 17-20, x2)
Charging (raging and PA): +23/+18/+13, 2d6+28+d6energy(+d6energy from lesser elemental rage)
Longbow: +14/+9/+4, d8+7
Class Features:
DR6/-
Cold Resistance 4
Constantly Endure Elements (Cold)
Gear (108,000)
Belt of physical perfection+4 16.000
Mithral Breastplate+4 20.200
Adamantine Greatsword+3 22.050
Cloak of resistance+4 16.000
Ring of Protection+2 8.000
Amulet of nat. armour+2 8.000
Comp. Longbow+1 (+6St) 2.600
Boots of Speed 12.000
104.850
Skill (xx) Rank class stat total
Perception 12 3 2 +17
Acrobatics 12 3 4 +19
Survival 12 3 2 +17
Swim 6 3 6 +15
Climb 6 3 6 +15
Diplomacy 12 1 +13
No suggestions anymore? So I guess the character is perfect as he is? ;)
Things which still could be changed:
Feats Level 7 and 11
Rage Powers (elemental chain, Flesh wound)
Skills
Items
Are the saves good enough?
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Howdy. I think the Paizo boards were a little wacky yesterday because I definitely didn't see new posts on this thread.
Anywho, I dig what you have going. I don't like Extra Rage and Clear Mind, though. Extra Rage especially. You don't need 6 extra rounds if you've used the preceding 29 well. As for Clear Mind, you do have a decent Will save. I think you got a Rage Power that you might use once a game. Maybe.
Indeed, you would have wanted to get Combat Reflexes to use Come and Get Me. I was switching around what I have on the build I hope to use one of these days to fit what you had and I took it out and never put it back in.
If you were going back to CaGM, You'd get Combat Reflexes at 11 and get Flesh Wound at 13 instead. I really like Flesh Wound, especially for the CaGM Barb.
@Yuengling Dragon: I think you can put combat reflexes in without a problem. If I understood your post correctly, you did not select a feat for 7th level.
Although I have another opinion on clear mind (it's like improved iron will while raging) I thank you for your answers. I still think I will eat too much damage by coming-and-getting-me my opponents. The decent AC (28 while raging), the good saves (at least I think they are good) and the DR are all about toning down incoming damage.
Update: While raging the AC goes up to 30, because the (unnamed) natural armor bonus of the beast totem stacks with the enhancement bonus of the amulet (or rather the other way round). AC 30 is decent for a raging barbarian of 12th level, I'd say.
How has it worked out in play? Looks like a fun little build.
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I've got a very similar character going right now. It's a lot of fun. My only suggestions, I'd swap the mithril breastplate with rhino hide armor. You move a little slower, BUT you get the +2d6 damage from the armor on all of your pounce attacks. And get raging vitality AS SOON AS YOU CAN. If you don't have it and some how drop to negative (and you probably will with CaGM), you'll die when the rage ends. It's also an extra hit point per level while raging.
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Raging Vitality is for barbarians with bad teammates.
I strongly disagree with this. I've got good teammates and it has saved me on more than one occasion. You also end up burning rages at the end of combat while you wait to get healed so you don't pass out and possibly die after combat is over.
Unless you're going for mobility/spring attack (and you have pounce, so why would you?) I'd dump the Dex lower and give up dodge. You're a barbarian, you don't need AC. You have HP, DR, and the ability to do a full attack from 80 feet away. On a 25-point buy there's no reason to not have a 16 con or better at first level. This will also beef up flesh wound.
On a similar note I'd give up the elemental tree for something like reckless abandon/strength surge/etc.
I agree with the "you're a barbarian, you don't need AC" thought on this character, but in order to make CaGM useful, you need lots of AoOs which means a higher than normal dex. Reckless abandon is also pretty useful if you go with the "I'm a barbarian, I'm going to get hit" theory.
As my paladin is still alive and thriving as I might say, it seems I will not need this back up. But there is a good chance that someone else in my group will play it or at least base his concept on it.
Thank you all for your advice and comments.
Concerning the "you are a barbarian, you don't need AC" -argument: that may be valid in many campaigns, but I stated above that it is not true for me (did I?). The less time team members need to spend healing the barbarian, the more time they have for other things. This character shall be a team player and in his case that means don't annoy the cleric all the time. An AC of 30 is good against the second and third iterative attacks and saves hit points/cure spells/channels.
I changed the concept a little bit further, it now has the following feats:
Weapon Focus Greatsword (Human), Power Attack(1), Dodge(3), Iron Will(5), Combat Reflexes(7), Improved Critical(9), Extra Rage Power(11)
and rage powers:
Rage (29 rounds/day) – Rage Powers: Beast Totem, lesser (2nd), Scent (4th), Beast Totem(6th), Clear Mind (8th), Beast Totem, Greater (10th), Improved Damage Reduction (11th), Improved Damage Reduction (12th)
So no Elemental Rage, no flesh wound, but Scent and Improved DR twice.
The build now has a DR of 8.
Maybe there is something more compelling than Scent, but it must be 4th level.
Raging Vitality is nice, but I (if I played him) would really be careful not to fight while being on actually negative hit points. I had a barbarian once; I only used the extra hp when I would normally be dying. In this case the PC has 36 hp "left" to help him come back.
(Please excuse my English, I wrote rather fast and didn't really pay attention to grammar.)
I thought about the superstitious variant. It's good IMO, but I can not imagine to play a magic-hater while wearing a christmas tree of magic items and working together with a wizard/Sorcerer/witch... in my group.
Just fluff, but that plays an important role in our sessions.
Don't want to seem impolite, just mention it.
To replace "Improved DR" with "Flesh Wound" is absolutely an option to be considered.