| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'm sure this must have been asked somewhere already, but I can't seem to find it in Search anywhere.
'Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action' doesn't mention needing an "Attack Action", but lists only "when attacking". I can only assume this means whenever you make an attack roll.
Grappling is an attack.
#1 You make an attack roll to grapple.
#2 The PRD says "Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."
#3 If the target is under the effects of something like a Sanctuary, you need to save against that.
#4 If you are invisible, making a Grapple attack breaks the invisibility (I assume).
So can you Fight Defensively while Grappling? What am I missing here?
You do break invisibility.
You can make the attack defensively. Unless you have a class feature that mitigates the minus four to dex, remember that your AC goes down by two when you enter a grapple.
You can even make the attack with expertise or with style, if you have the appropriate feats.
The reason I asked is because this question came up on another gaming site regarding PF rules and the majority response there was that you cannot.
Which confused me, because it seemed to me that you could. I wasn't sure if I was missing something like a small rule or a FAQ somewhere. Hence my bringing the question here to toss it around and see what people thought.
Anyone of the persuasion that it cannot be done? Or is the consensus pretty much that it can?
The wording of fighting defensively as a standard action says " You can choose to fight defensively when attacking."
It just requires you use a standard action and attack and does. Not require the attack action. All combat maneuvers are attacks ergo you can do it.
Thanks for the clarification. I was guessing this was the case. :)
Another point to look at here:
- "Fighting defensively as a standard action" is listed as one of the options for the Attack action, so I would guess it applies to that action, not any action that uses an attack roll. Note that there's another listing for fighting defensively for the Full Attack action, otherwise it couldn't be applied to a full attack.
- Grappling is not performed instead of an attack, which other combat maneuvers are, it's a seperate standard action. Requiring an attack roll doesn't make it an attack action, it just gains modifiers that apply to attacks (like ongoing spells, concealment, the rule of natural 1 and natural 20).
My opinion on this is you can only fight defensively when using one of the actions that list fighting defensively as one of their options. These are Attack and Full Attack.
When grappling, you use the Grapple action, which doesn't list fighting defensively as an option.
(You could, for example, fight defensively on a trip attempt, because you perform the Attack action, choose to fight defensively, then replace the attack with the maneuver.)
Some other points:
You can even make the attack with expertise or with style, if you have the appropriate feats.
Styles are activated as a swift action before you do anything else, so of course that works.
Combat Expertise doesn't work on grapple. It clearly says you have to use the Attack or Full Attack action.All combat maneuvers are attacks
No, they're combat maneuvers. They do use an attack roll, but that doesn't make them the same as a normal attack.
I'm not sure the claim was ever that Grapple was a normal attack since normal attacks allow for iterative progressions. Attacks like Grapple, Cleave, or Touch, however, don't as they require a Standard Action to perform. They exist outside "normal".
The issue was which kinds of attacks does Standard FD work with. In its description it only says "when attacking" not "when making an attack action" or even "when making a melee or ranged attack". So it has a pretty wide application as long as what you're doing is "attacking".
Is Grappling someone 'attacking' them? I think so. Attacks...
...break Invisibility (only attacks or spells that affect foes do this).
...require you to save against Sanctuary on the target?
...must be checked against Concealment?
Grappling does this. So I'm left with thinking it must be an attack...albeit one that requires a Standard to perform (like Cleave).
<shrug>
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I have to agree with Andreas on this one. Making an attack role is not the same as making an attack. Just because grapple uses an attack role doesn't mean you can fight defensively with it.
Further more I believe the action types exclude being able to do so. Making a grapple attempt is a standard action (a specific type of action) and fighting defensively is a standard action. Just like other actions that don't overlap I believe you cannot use the two actions together.
In its description it only says "when attacking" not "when making an attack action"
That's because it's listed as an option for the attack action. Therefore, "when attacking" basically means "when using the action this option is listed for" in this case.
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Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
You make an attack roll when grappling, so it still sounds like fighting defensively fits just fine.
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
You make an attack roll when grappling, so it still sounds like fighting defensively fits just fine.
With the exception that (as I already mentioned) this is an option listed for the Attack action, not something that can be applied to anything that uses an attack roll.
The only way I see to add these modifiers to a grapple check is when you have the grab ability and choose to fight defensively on the attack that triggers the grab ability.
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Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
You make an attack roll when grappling, so it still sounds like fighting defensively fits just fine.
With the exception that (as I already mentioned) this is an option listed for the Attack action, not something that can be applied to anything that uses an attack roll.
The only way I see to add these modifiers to a grapple check is when you have the grab ability and choose to fight defensively on the attack that triggers the grab ability.
I still think you are interpreting it incorrectly. The rules also state the following:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects.Even if we ignore the rules for a moment, it is not unreasonable to think that a person would be able to place more emphasis on defense or offense while wrestling.
So, I would like to ask, in your game, can a player apply Power Attack, Combat Expertise or other Attack Bonuses/Penalties to a Grapple attack?
I believe the issues are that the Fighting Defensively entry is found in the Attack section that covers melee, ranged, unarmed, touch, natural, and multi-attacks and that Grapple does not use the word "attack" in its description specifically. So the conclusion is that Grapple is not covered by the terms of FD.
However, I believe that the FD entry is much more general since it only mentions "when attacking" as opposed to "when using the attack action" or anything similar. So the applications are compatible with anything that:
1) requires an attack roll and
2) doesn't specifically disallow defensive fighting.
A Grapple is an attack. It must be. It can be chosen as a weapon with regards to several Feats. As mentioned above, it breaks Invisibility (and only attacks and certain spells do so). And it does not require a Save, Ability check, or Skill check to accomplish...but rather an attack roll that is affected by anything that affects attack rolls.
Maybe someone can push for a FAQ to clear it up, but until then there will be table variation regarding its interpretation.
Fortunately, Defensive Grappling probably covers a very small percentage of characters and allowing for it hardly breaks combat.
You take the standard action "Fight Defensive" for an Attack Action to make a Grapple check.
Except you don't use the Attack action to make a grapple check. You use the Grapple action.
So, I would like to ask, in your game, can a player apply Power Attack, Combat Expertise or other Attack Bonuses/Penalties to a Grapple attack?
Combat Expertise: clearly not. It states explicitly that it's only allowed on the attack or full-attack actions.
Power Attack: If a player really wants to, why not. Although I can't see why anyone would want that. There would just be a penalty to the attack roll and no damage roll. There won't even be AoOs because you can't make those while grappling (unless you let go of the grapple as a free action, but then it would make even less sense).other bonuses/penalties: depends on where they come from. Any spells or similar effects that create a continuous bonus/penalty would of course apply. But anything that requires you to use the Attack action to gain the bonus/penalty can't work on a grapple, because you're not using the Attack action.
However, I believe that the FD entry is much more general since it only mentions "when attacking" as opposed to "when using the attack action" or anything similar.
If that was the case, it would be listed as its own entry in the combat chapter, not as an option for the Attack action. And most importantly, it wouldn't have had to be repeated as an option for the Full-Attack action.
Has there ever been an official answer or even a dev post regarding whether you can Fight Defensively when attempting a Grapple as a standard action? I have a Feral Gnasher who sometimes fights defensively.
So far I've been using FD to make a Bite attack and then grapple with the Grab ability. His CMB for grappling is much better than his chance to hit a foe's AC though, so it might be nice to grapple defensively.
Also, Andreas Forster seems to be saying that Power Attack doesn't modify the damage dealt in a grapple. I'd think that it should work just fine since the feat says "You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls." and the damage from grappling seems like a melee damage roll to me. At least you're in melee and causing damage (in my FG's case with a natural weapon)
No official answer that I'm aware of. Table variation will happen by the looks of it, although the Bite and Grab combo you have there is a nice go-around for those that wouldn't permit Grappling Defensively.
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Okay, so the argument Against seems to be the following:
"Fight defensively as a standard action" is listed in Combat->Standard Actions->Attack. Therefore it only works with The Attack Action, which is not just any standard action used to make an attack but only this specific one.
There's a problem with that logic though. Some other things are listed under Combat->Standard Actions->Attack; "Shooting or throwing into melee" and "Critical hits". If you were to use the logic that everything under Combat->Standard Actions->Attack applies only to The Attack Action, then you can't crit on an AoO or Full Attack, but you also don't take penalties for shooting into melee on those attacks.
I don't think that's the way it's supposed to be read though. I think that section was written as a general guide on what kind of things you can do on attacks in general, not just The Attack Action.
Checking the "Actions in Combat" chart I don't see a specific "grapple" action or a specific "fight defensively" action. I wonder if they both fall under the various "Attack" actions. Certainly the CMB check to establish a grapple is an "attack roll".
@Elbedor - It actually isn't all that nice sometimes since my PC's grapple CMB is +6 higher than his attack roll. In a couple more levels he'll gain a rather odd combination from Crane Riposte where he'll be able to use Total Defense for +7 AC and then make an AoO on the first foe who hits him to Bite and Grab. I felt like this would be a more interesting grappling style than Snapping Turtle.