I apologize in advance for the long post, but I have to get this off my chest somehow.
About 3 years ago I started the STAP with a group of 6 players. We were aware that this was a large group, but nevertheless we agreed upon playing once every 2-3 weeks. At first my expectations of keeping this agreement were low, since with some of these players I had already experienced problems with attendance in a previous campaign. However, for the first two years it went well. Attendance was practically 100% and we played once every 2-3 weeks, except during the summer holidays.
However, about a year ago things began to change. One player went on a long holiday in November, so that we could not play for 5 weeks. I adapted the schedule to him, and inserted 2 play sessions with short adventures for the other players. However, when that player returned, he announced that he would again be away for about four weeks during the Christmas season. I adapted the schedule again.
We got some appointments in for January and February. The same player cancels an appointment in February, again because he is going on holiday. We agree to play one evening without him, since this evening had already been scheduled.
After the holiday this player is present again, but then another player announces that in April he will go to America on a business trip for 4 weeks, and afterwards to Hamburg for 3 weeks. I adapt the schedule again. This results in no playing sessions from April until the start of June.
We play 2 times in June, then the summer holidays arrive, and we play once more at the end of August. Then the same player announces that he will go on a long trip to America again in September, and afterwards to Hamburg again in November. So we cram 3 evenings of play in October, despite some protests of the other players that these are too soon after each other.
When we are making new appointments, the only possible dates turn out to be November 20 and January 7. At that moment I make a disappointed comment that I do not like to wait so long, and get an angry reaction from these two players, because they interpret my comment as a personal attack.
These two players who are causing all these problems, are the same players I have had problems with before. It is not that they do not have good reasons for their absence. It is more that they are refusing to admit they do not have time to play once every two to three weeks. My other players (4 players) and I want to play more often, but we cannot because of them.
The problem is also that the STAP is an adventure path, and I find it impossible to run this campaign when we only play once every 5-6 weeks. Because of their eagerness at first, I adapted the scenario heavily to the player characters and added story lines revolving around the characters. However, because we play so rarely, people tend to forget these storylines. This results in playing sessions where everybody is focusing on the rules only. Since we play once every 6-8 weeks, all playing sessions have become like this. From the past year I remember just 2 sessions where I amused myself. The others were all an exercise in frustration for me. And that is my other problem. The players still seem to like it, at least that is what they say, and I seem to be the only one who notices this trend.
Things I have tried the past year to keep this campaign running:
- I discussed with the players not to focus on the rules and not to have rules discussions during the game, in order to pick up the speed. Everybody agreed on this, and it worked - for two sessions. After that it was back to rules discussions again, which I had to cut short every time, which made me feel like a policeman instead of a DM.
- I made special handouts for the players to tide them over during the times when we could not play, in order to keep them informed of the story. Though the players reacted enthousiastically to this, it did not lead to any positive results during play.
- I speeded up the campaign by selling treasure outside of the playing sessions via email; this was no success, since some players promptly forgot to equip their characters with the new treasure
- I ran extra (unrelated) adventures for the 4 other players during the absence of one of the two players; that was nice, but the other players were eager to go back to Savage Tide
- I tried to keep up the pace during the playing sessions; this did not work, since my players wanted to elaborate on events, even though they noticed and commented that the campaign was slowing down
Despite all these attempts the following things happened:
- One player sleeping during part of a session (this is one of the two problem players; he was simply too tired to pay attention)
- One player having no idea what the plot was about, and negotiating with the wrong NPCs, thus almost endangering the rest of the group and the plot (same player)
- One player constantly attacking me because my monsters are too powerful, e.g. at one point he found a CR8 monster with blindsight too high a challenge for their level 10 group (same player again)
- Players discussing the rules all the time (most of the players)
- Players attacking other players because of their supposed ignorance of the rules (some of the players)
- Players forgetting even the most obvious rules (most of the players)
- Players accusing other players of metagaming when the other players have remembered details which these players have forgotten. This is a regular occurance, which frustrates one of my players who has taken notes of the plot and tries to use these during the game. This happens to be my husband. One of the two problem players seems to suggest that I give him extra information about the campaign, but actually I take great pains not to do it, and the other players should know this after all these years playing with us
- Combats moving sluggishly, which leads to bored players, despite all my efforts to keep up the pace
- People forgetting to level up and/or equip their characters (e.g. one of the problem players)
What I have done since the last session (which could have been very exciting, since they were attacking two of the infamous seven, but which turned out to be a very boring session), is temporarily stop the campaign. I let my players know that I expected them to consider whether they were able to play once every 2-3 weeks, and let me know what they have decided. I also told them why I wanted this. And I told them that I would only continue the campaign with players who were able to play regularly.
In the meantime I have received all their reactions. The four regular players all let me know by phone that they wanted to continue the campaign. The other two sent me an email with a long list of (personal) reasons why they could not play, but were still offended because I forced them to realize that there was no place for D&D in their lives anymore, a decision which I think they should have made on their own about a year ago. However, this still leaves me with a bad feeling that I had to force this decision on them. Now I have told them I am open to other suggestions, but so far this had led to nothing substantial.
These 2 players have played for a long time in my campaign, so I am not pleased to see them go, but I do not see any other solution to my dilemma. It is not a temporary problem either. If I were to continue the campaign as before, this would probably last for years and years, taking away my fun in this campaign.
But perhaps I am overlooking things. Perhaps some of you have other ideas how I can solve this. What I need is a new perspective on this.
For me it is not an option to stop with Savage Tide in order to play other (unrelated) adventures, as one of these 2 players suggested. The other 4 players and I are all very eager to continue the campaign. One player even said: "I want to finish this campaign no matter what."
I could add a second group with irregular, unconnected adventures, but I already have such a group. It is impossible to combine these two groups into one group because of conflicting schedules.
And then there is the fact that I do not yet know about one of these players whether he will still be welcome in my group. This is both a very good and a very bad player, depending on his mood, the amount of time he has for D&D, his personal life, etc. I have been having problems with him on and off, and have had several discussions with him about it. He is aware of his behavior and every time he promises to improve himself, but this is always temporarily. The problem is, that if he plays well, he plays very well.
The other player is basically welcome as far as I am concerned, but I also know that his problems will keep recurring as well. He is the one who will hardly have any time to play for the coming 3-4 years.
Both of these players have problems with their significant others not wanting them to play D&D, or (and I am not quite sure which) they feel guilty when they play once every two-three weeks and leave their significant others at home. I have suggested taking their partners along, as I know at least one of the women likes playing D&D, but "they want to keep their private lives separate from D&D", e.g. one of these players sees D&D as his "night out" without the wife. Which gives me a bad feeling, since it almost looks like he is cheating on his wife, and that his mistress is D&D.
I am curious to read what others would do in this situation.
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Personally, I think you have already made your decision, and enacted it quite well. you are simply looking for justification from an outside source.
I think you did the right thing by asking them all to reconsider if they have the neccessary time to dedicate to a campaign. Unfortunately for you, the ones who dont have the time, are being childish about it, and acting like it is exceptable for the DM and 4 other players suffer by having to put up with their irregular schedules.
As hurtful as it sounds, I think you ought to tell them they are welcome to play on nights they can attend, but that you will not be fixing the schedule around their schedules anymore.
Tell them outright, and continue playing every 2-3 weeks, or whatever you want with the remaining players.
An alternative solution, and this is only suggested for highly dedicated groups, which it sounds like yours isnt, is to change it to a Play by post, or play by email game. Gmail is particularly handy for play by email, btw.
With this, you could change the 6 player game to online, and give yourself time for the regular attending players to have a seperate game for just the 4 of them and you.
Also, about the 'night out' guy not wanting to invite his wife...tell her in passing conversation that she is more than welcome to attend any time she wants, with or without him, lol.
I hope at least some of this helps.
While I understand that it was hard I think you did the right thing and I don't see another alternative. In the end some players simply don't have enough time to commit to a game because of outside life commitments. That is not your or your regular players fault and they should not have to be punished for it. Eventually you took the bull by the horns and did what had to be done for the health of the game.
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As to the player that see's this as a night out without the wife. I think this is some kind of gendered thing. I've definitely noticed that 'boys night out' is a very common desire among males and it seems to be much less common for women to desire a 'girls night out'. Something I've often found odd because I read that women are far better then men at maintaining social networks. In any case D&D is hardly the only hobby that has this sort of thing. My aunt complains bitterly when her husband takes off to go fly fishing every two weeks or so and, while she has no interest in fly fishing, I think he makes it pretty clear that she's not invited either.
On the other hand I rarely see woman engaged in hobbies specifically meant to exclude their husbands. Often the husband will make it clear in no uncertain terms that he has no interest in her pastime but rarely is she intending to exclude him, further such hobbies don't usually last as long, often only being for a few hours while the equivalent male version of 'me' time often runs six or seven hours.
One of the couples I know specifically planned things to include 'me' time in their relationship when the topic of children came up. In retrospect I suspect that the husband insisted on this discussion. What they have is each parent gets one night a week away from the children and spouse to do whatever they want (within reason) while the other parent takes care of the couples two children. The husband comes to game night every week, not returning until nearly one in the morning. He tells me that his wifes version of 'do whatever you want - have fun' is to take a Twilight novel to the local coffee shop for two hours and then return home.
In fact I suspect that this imbalance between what each member of a couple views as a reasonable amount of time voluntarily (i.e. not work related) away from the other person is the single biggest issue that I've had in regards to attendance in the gaming groups I've played with starting right back around 17 when me and my fellow gamers started seriously dating. It tends to get far worse when children are added to the picture as well.
Wow.
ok.
Alright with that being said and done, my group is in a vaguley similar position in that the games are a tad sporadic, and we are notionally aiming at a monthly session.
Where we can pick up an extra session each month we attempt to do so, and I will run my campaign so the GM can have a break and the players can do something a little different. In all it usually means we play the my stuff about every 8 weeks (on average)
Yet we all know what is going on, where, why, and with whom.
We are a bunch of guys who have busy lives, families, kids, jobs, mortgages - the whole catastrophy.
I guess my question is more along the line of 'what do you want?'
There's nothing wrong with hanging out and shooting the breeze with the guys and having a little informal rpg goodness, but if you really want a disciplined session then maybe this isn't for you and you need to attend a different group for that.
What your players seem to be lacking is a little organisation, I'll break down how we run our games:
Planning/Execution
Pre-game:
Email/Facebook post goes up during the week outlining the parties overall options/direction for the next session (both campaigns are hand made - so kind of important!) and any questions clarified and answered.
Game Day:
At the start of the session an overview/plot so far is recapped, to allow players to menatlly catch up - takes about 10 minutes.
As the game is concluding, a general recap of the session is given to make sure people haven't missed anything (In case someone was away from the table and somehow missed an event) - talking 2-5 minutes here.
At the end of the session, the NEXT session is agreed (where possible) so people can diarise, VERY important. As well as that, a few alternate dates are thrown together 'in case', but they aren't committments - just indicators.
Post-Game:
Some time later (week or so) email/facebook post goes out with a bit of a recap of the session, and anything that needed clarification from the session - ie levelling, treasure, or any other 'stuff' that came up relating to the session.
The trick to the emails is to keep them brief, and bite sized.
That all looks like a lot, but we are talking maybe 30-45 mins committment tops when you break it right down.
The more 'admin' you do out of session the better, what takes 5 mins online would take 20 mins on the day. Trust me.
Session times:
This is kinda fixed - we aim for 2.30pm-8.30pm on a Sat, or noon-6pm for a Sunday session. Having a bit of a firm window means people GENERALLY stay on topic; if you give the players all night, they will take it :p The other benefit is that spouses/significant others still get you back at a reasonable time, and can still either spend the morning (sat) or go out afterwards on the Sunday.
Food:
We dont play at a house, we play in an Office - if you dont bring it, you dont have it, so most of the guys are good about bringing a bottle of something (NON ALCOHOLIC!) and some munchies. We try and have an agreement of when we are taking a run to the burger joint/shop so we can plan around it and minimise time wasteage.
GM shouldn't have to bring/buy anything. He rides for free.
Missing players:
try to never leave the adventure in the middle of something, each session should be an episode that closes at a key point, like a TV show.
That way if someone can't make the next session then you can still continue on without them - you only need 3 or 4, so just roll on.
Much harder to do if they were mid combat last session etc.
Anyhow its 7am and Im having coffee.. ping me any other questions you may have :)
We have a blast!
Oh and for the 'no time for gaming' couple:
I work as a business trainer (full time)
I help people set up their businesses and give advice as well.
I do volunteer work with kids (out of hours)
I train in a martial art 3 days a week (12hrs/wk)
I fight in this art competitively at a State & National level.
I undertake other fitness training on the other 4 days - some days (sat) I train twice in a day.
I am studying a Degree.
I am also a member of the Armed Forces (similar to National Guard)
I like to fire up some computer gaming time
I have time for my friends
I spend time with my family; I am a parent.
...I could go on, and on, and on...
Oh yeah - AND I HAVE TIME FOR GAMING!
It takes discipline and planning, but if it isn't fun then DONT DO IT :)
Thanks for all the heartwarming reactions. I really needed that!
And Shifty, thanks for your tips. Most of them I already use, sometimes in a modified version. However, I have the idea they do not work. These players are sort of self-absorbed. They seem to expect a lot of me and give nothing in return. For example, once we made a recap of the sesssion, each player in turn. This stopped when one of the two problem players suddenly refused doing this. Suddenly all the others felt they did not have to do this either. It is just one example of what is happening in this group. In contrast: in the other group one player is always making notes and typing them out for all the players to read. He has been doing this for years now.
As for the nice little list you added, I have a similar list. I have my own business, I have a family, I play keyboard, read books, go to fitness, go walking and cycling, do some photography, visit the theater, redecorate the house and I still have time to DM two groups. You are right, it is all about priorities and what you like to do. I have concluded that the priorities of these 2 players lie elsewhere, but they refuse to admit this and expect me to accomodate.
I't is a shame they don't appreciate the effort that it takes to run games, which is fundamentally more for the benefit of the players than it ever is for the GM.
If you are doing all that (which is to a large degree spoofeeding for a good cause) and they still don't want to be reasonable, then perhaps you and I can both work out how this ends.
Your focus is needed elsewhere, on productive groups keen on a committed GM.
On a side note, there's no 'cheating with D&D'; his wife knows where he is at 2am, who he is with, and what he's doing - and he's not blowing the kids college fund on Stripper Dolars. A lot of women would KILL to have a hubby that 'cheats like that' :P
On a side note, there's no 'cheating with D&D'; his wife knows where he is at 2am, who he is with, and what he's doing - and he's not blowing the kids college fund on Stripper Dolars. A lot of women would KILL to have a hubby that 'cheats like that' :P
You have made me laugh out loud!
I am going to continue the campaign with the players who do want to play every 2-3 weeks and who are enthousiastic. And then see how it goes. If it does not work, then I will quit altogether. But I more or less expect this group will work, since they are all very eager to play, and to make time for it.
It is just that I cannot seem to shake off this bad feeling. These two players have been playing with me a very long time (one almost 20 years, the other about 9 years). I do not mean to say that all this playing time was problem free. The problems date from the last 4-5 years, perhaps a little longer.
Thank you.
Unfortunately I cannot combine the two groups because of conflicting schedules.
It is just that I cannot seem to shake off this bad feeling.
Don't buy others emotions.
Check schedules for a clear date, well in advance, and organise that session - let people know that you'll run the game on the day with the people you have (implication - if they dont turn up they miss out).
Then stick to it.
The choices are then theirs and theirs alone.
You'd be welcome at our table :)
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I think it sounds like you've handled the situation well. The rest of the group shouldn't need to take such long breaks because 2 members are extremely busy and/or don't prioritise D&D as highly as the others.
The other option though would be to continue running the sessions on schedule and having the two busy players show up when available. The rest of the time they could entrust their PC into the care of the group and the character would take a background role, there if needed but otherwise in the shadows. To a certain extent this would require the frequently absent players to accept that they won't be driving the plot as much as the always present players. But it does give them the chance to keep gaming when they can and remain part of the game.
My regular group has largely operated in that fashion for quite some time now. A couple of the guys do shift work and another is notoriously busy, so they tend to float in and out of the game with their characters spending a fair bit of the time as essentially NPC party members. It depends a lot on the personalities involved, but that works well for us.
I was just about to suggest the same thing. I have a gaming group (6 people) playing legacy of Fire, we play every four weeks, and do not play if we are missing more than one player. However, two of my players do not treat it as a commitment, and we are forever having to cancel. We had a chat this week, and have decide that their characters are essentailly DMPCs which they have dibs on when they can make it. That being said, they are reasonable guys, and it was their suggestion.
I also use the wesite 'Obsidian portal' to type up the notes of where the camapign is at, and include a link in my "reminder" email that I send out the week before the game. My players have commented how useful they find the recap.
You'd be welcome at our table :)
Pity that I do not live in Australia :-)
My two players will not accept a construction where the other players play and they are absent for some sessions. They both play PCs with an important plot role (sometimes even at the cost of other PCs) and they will not appreciate it if I solve it like this. So far I have not seen any other solution than the one I have already taken.
One of those 2 players has now suggested a "light" version of the STAP, so with focus on the combat and not on the intrige, but I am not enthousiastic about that. I know he wants this for his own reasons, since he is more combat-oriented (he plays WOW), and he is the one who missed out on all the plot elements last year, so what he really wants is to play according to his schedule and according to his favourite type of campaign. Which makes me wonder why he still wants to play in my campaign, but I suspect he cannot find another group.
For me this takes away the element that makes the STAP so special. I also know some of the other players like the STAP exactly for that reason, and I do not want to spoil their fun, especially because they can attend regularly.
So we are going to play the STAP with 4 people instead of 6. Since 2 of these players are not so experienced yet, I will run them through some introductory adventures (I was planning to use the Freeport trilogy for that, which can be tied in with the STAP with some work) and then continue the STAP where we left off. This gives everybody a break. And it also gives the two players who left, the opportunity to step in again after half a year or so, should they change their minds and wish to do so and should their schedule have changed (but I do not expect they will).
My two players will not accept a construction where the other players play and they are absent for some sessions
WOW! Umm, too bad for them :p
Sounds like your solution could work, you can always tinker campaigns around to fit people in... players come, players go... :)
Nothing wrong with being a combat oriented WOW player, but what he needs to get is that people play RPG's for a range of reason, that might actually include stuff other than 'kill stuff, get l3wtz'. Which is fun, and when I want to, I play an MMO and do just that.
MMO's do a better job of 'kill stuff, get lewtz' than RPG's in my opinion; I play RPG's for interesting storylines, good roleplaying, and interesting character development.
I just now discovered this thread and I just wanted to say that I think you've made the right decision. I realize it's a difficult one, especially when it involves people you've played with for so long, but you have four players who are fully capable of sticking to your schedule and contribute to the game. That's more than most groups have and it's just not fair to them to have two people ruin the fun. Looking at what's best for the group as a whole, dropping the two problem players is definitely the way to go.
It's just too bad that those two were not mature enough to make the decision on their own.
Thanks everyone for the encouraging reactions.
I will be starting with the other 4 players next weekend. We have decided to take a break from Savage Tide for a while, as two of those players lack experience (not XP, but D&D experience) and also want a chance to make more optimized characters.
So I have decided to start with new characters in Freeport and to skip back in time in the campaign. Then when these characters have the right level for the adventure where we left off, these players can choose with which characters they want to continue, and they can meet each other in Farshore.
I am curious how this turns out, since I also have the feeling that the two players who have quit the campaign, have been dominating the campaign for quite a while, even to the point that they stifled the initiative of the new playerss. I hope to create an atmosphere where they can rediscover the game on their own. The other two players are experienced players, but they both also enjoy the creativity of others and want to inspire other players, not stifle them.
We had our first session with the new group yesterday. And what do you think? We did five combats on one evening. And then there was roleplaying as well. Lots of roleplaying. It was great fun. And we are having our next session in 2 weeks. And another one in 4 weeks.
So it seems this will be a succes!
Glad to hear it, Luna! Definitely sounds like you're on a good track.
Delighted to hear you got such a good outcome, and may you guys now go from strength to strength!