Reposting my question from another thread since it hasn't been answered yet: I know it's been hashed and rehashed that monks use their monk level along with their multiclass levels BAB when determining FoB. So here's my question:
A level 9 character with Monk 4/Wiz 1/Dragon Disciple 4 has a BAB of +6/+1. Would that mean that when he uses FoB he'd have +5/+5/-1 or +5/+5?
Also if we level him up a few more levels to level 16 as a Monk 11/Wiz 1/Dragon Disciple 4 he would have a BAB of +11/+6/+1. Would his FoB be +12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2?
Basically I guess I'm just unsure if having an extra attack normally from having a high BAB would also get added into your FoB? From looking at table 3-10 it looks like monks get extra attacks at 8 and 15 as written in the book, but also at level 6, 11, and 16 as a class with good BAB would.
The simplist way to explain is to take your effective BAB when flurrying and look at the monk entry line that matches that BAB. In otherwords, yes to your question.
The simplist way to explain is to take your effective BAB when flurrying and look at the monk entry line that matches that BAB. In otherwords, yes to your question.Well my only problem with that logic (thought it originally seemed sound to me as well) is that the book states that monks basically get ITWF and GTWF at 8 and 15 respectively. Now if we have a Monk 1/Fighter 10, he shouldn't be getting those extra attacks since he hasn't reached the proper monk level, though his chart in the book would indicate otherwise.
So while it might seem like an easy answer to the question, I don't believe it's the right way of going about it, however, I am curious if either A) I'm wrong about what I just stated (please explain why) or B) If, as I asked in my original question, monks get an extra attack in their FoB for having a high BAB (not just from being level 8 and 15).
I can't think of any reason why a monk would not gain extra attacks due to high BAB. (regarding B)
As to A, you have a good point, and unless the monk level was not 8 or 15 they shouldn't get the additional offhand* strikes. That can be bypassed by taking the feats normally if stats/choices permit
*note offhand is a relative term, nobody needs to jump on my case about all flurry attacks being possible from the same limb, etc etc etc.
Monk 4/Wiz 1/Dragon Disciple 4
For Flurry of Blows:
MNK 4 = 4 BAB
WIZ 1 = 0 BAB
DrD 4 = 3 BAB
Total = 7/2
Flurry grants an extra attack, but penalizes *all* attacks by -2.
So, +5/+5/+0 not counting anything except BAB
Monk 11/Wiz 1/Dragon Disciple 4
MNK 11 = 11 BAB
WIZ 1 = 0 BABDrD 4 = 3 BAB
Total = 14/9/4
So, +12/+12/+12/+7/+2 with Flurry, counting only BAB and the 8th lvl Monk getting the "as if using Improved Two Weapon Fighting"
Compare that to say a Ranger with Two Weapon Style (at the same *total* BAB):
Ranger 7 = 7 BAB
Front Hand +5/+0; Back Hand +5/+0 (counting Improved TWF)
Ranger 14 = 14 BAB
Front Hand +12/+7/+5; Back Hand +12/+7/+5 (counting Greater TWF)
FoB basically works as a version of Two Weapon Fighting for Monks that allows them to use a full BAB prgression. Bear in mind that in the examples (MNK4 and MNK11) the BAB without Flurry would be +3 and +8 respectively. A significant bump to say the least! Also, the Monk adds full STR mod to all attacks, the Two Weapon Fighter must take Double Slice to get full STR Mod on the back hand.
Hope that helps :)
GNOME
Monk 11/Wiz 1/Dragon Disciple 4MNK 11 = 11 BAB
WIZ 1 = 0 BAB
DrD 4 = 3 BAB
Total = 14/9/4So, +12/+12/+12/+7/+2 with Flurry, counting only BAB and the 8th lvl Monk getting the "as if using Improved Two Weapon Fighting"
Small correction, that would be +12/+12/+7/+7/+2.
But otherwise entirely correct :-)
Monk 11/Wiz 1/Dragon Disciple 4MNK 11 = 11 BAB
WIZ 1 = 0 BAB
DrD 4 = 3 BAB
Total = 14/9/4So, +12/+12/+12/+7/+2 with Flurry, counting only BAB and the 8th lvl Monk getting the "as if using Improved Two Weapon Fighting"
Small correction, that would be +12/+12/+7/+7/+2.
But otherwise entirely correct :-)
Did you remember to add in the extra attack from being an 8th level Monk? Flurry adds *1* Attack; "as if using ITWF" grants an additional *1* attack.
from PDF Core Rules:
Flurry: "When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination..."
and
"At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows..."
And honestly thank you for back-checking! :)
GNOME
Yes, the attack from ITWF is at -5 (or -7 counting the TWF penalty to all attacks), so that is the extra attack at +7, instead of at + 12.
He gains the same number of attacks, just as the ranger (or any class) using the TWF, and improved TWF feats.
Yes, the attack from ITWF is at -5 (or -7 counting the TWF penalty to all attacks), so that is the extra attack at +7, instead of at + 12.
He gains the same number of attacks, just as the ranger (or any class) using the TWF, and improved TWF feats.
Genau! Thanks again :) I missed that one.
GNOME
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The simplist way to explain is to take your effective BAB when flurrying and look at the monk entry line that matches that BAB. In otherwords, yes to your question.
I don't believe that is RAW.
Specifically, as Monk's gain more levels, they gain more attacks and the penalties are reduced.
For example, a 19th Fighter/1st Monk would flurry at:
+18/+13/+8/+3 (from 19 BAB)
+18 (from flurry)
The -1/-1 penalty from the Monk line from his number of Monk levels is used to calculate the difference/penalties he has.
Say you had 6th Monk/14th Fighter:
Looking at the 6th Monk line you see: +4/+4/-1
Notice 6th level Monks have BAB of +4 so this becomes in effect: +0/+0/-5
Calculate BAB = 4 + 14 = +18
Calculate FoB:
+18/+13/+8/+3 (from 18 BAB)
+18/+13 (from Flurry)
Why? Because Flurry was granting two addition attacks for a 6th level Monk, so a 6M/14F would get 4 attacks from his BAB and 2 from Monk.
MNK 11 = 11 BAB
WIZ 1 = 0 BAB
DrD 4 = 3 BAB
Total = 14/9/4Small correction, that would be +12/+12/+7/+7/+2.
But otherwise entirely correct :-)
Not quite.
Monk 11 shows BAB +8/+3, and FoB of +9/+9/+4/+4/-1, so the FoB calc from BAB is:
+1/+1/-4/-4/-9 and ignore the +1/-4 set because that came from BAB you are left with +1/-4/-9 for FoB
This char has BAB 14, so:
+15/+10/+5 (from 14 BAB)
+15/+10/+5 (from FoB)
So:
+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5
IIRC, in 3.5 A Monk's FoB attack penalty was reduced as they leveled, but that is not true in PFRPG.
What 'reduces' the penalty is the fact that they get to use full Attack Progression (sic Fighter).
A Monk 8 has a BAB +6/+1, or +8/+3 *when FoBing* At this point, he gets two attacks (6/1) without FoB, and four attacks (6/6/1/1) when he is FoBing. Basically, FoB gives the Monk TWF and ITWF at this level. And, just like both of those feats, at it's best, TWF enforces a -2 penalty to all attacks when utilizing the advantage of the extra attacks. The difference to a Monk is that *when* using the FoB his BAB is better.
MNK 1
-1/-1
MNK 8
6/6/1/1
MNK 14
12/12/7/7/2/2
MNK 16
14/14/9/9/4/4/-1
If you have any other classes that grant BAB, simply add that number to the top of what FoB is already giving you. (for example, a MNK8/FTR2 would FoB at: 8/8/3/3. MNK8/FTR4 would give 12/12/7/7/2)
Please refer to the Monk Class Table and use the FOB section.
GNOME
IIRC, in 3.5 A Monk's FoB attack penalty was reduced as they leveled, but that is not true in PFRPG.
What 'reduces' the penalty is the fact that they get to use full Attack Progression (sic Fighter).
A Monk 8 has a BAB +6/+1, or +8/+3 *when FoBing* At this point, he gets two attacks (6/1) without FoB, and four attacks (6/6/1/1) when he is FoBing. Basically, FoB gives the Monk TWF and ITWF at this level. And, just like both of those feats, at it's best, TWF enforces a -2 penalty to all attacks when utilizing the advantage of the extra attacks. The difference to a Monk is that *when* using the FoB his BAB is better.
MNK 1
-1/-1MNK 8
6/6/1/1MNK 14
12/12/7/7/2/2MNK 16
14/14/9/9/4/4/-1If you have any other classes that grant BAB, simply add that number to the top of what FoB is already giving you. (for example, a MNK8/FTR2 would FoB at: 8/8/3/3. MNK8/FTR4 would give 12/12/7/7/2)
Please refer to the Monk Class Table and use the FOB section.
GNOME
+1
It is actually quite simple, as the text explains. With FoB the Monk uses full BAB, and adds attacks just like TWF, ITWF, and GTWF at certain levels. Calculating it is the same as any other class.
When multiclassing you can just add the BAB from the other class to the monk level and read table (But NOT the extra (I&G)TWF attacks, if the monk level itself is not high enough (8 or 15).
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It is actually quite simple, as the text explains.
It is far from simple, as pretty much everyone (including HeroLab until a line was added to the FAQ) has different interpretations.
You need to point to the text that shows it the way you are interpreting it, as I have a 2nd level monk that is 10th level and I can't find any way with any of the Errata/FAQ/PHB p57 etc to agree with your interpretation in any way.
For example:
A 20th level monk can use two ways to interpret his attacks:
1) The book way which is 20 levels of Monk = 20 BAB = 20 - 2 = +18
2) My way which is "look at 20th level on the chart = 18 - 15 = +3 (offset from BAB 15) = 3 + 15 = +18
They are EXACTLY the same formula, but my way is significantly easier (at least to me)
In any event, at no point can you say "look at the monk line and skip down the number of lines of more BAB" which is why I'm trying to explain this in different ways that doesn't involve referring to lines on the Monk progression (p58) other than the number of monk levels you have.
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This is inaccurate. A Monk 6/Fighter 14 would flurry at +18/+18/+13/+8/+3.
1) Take the monk level and use it for BAB.
2) Add that number to the BAB they receive from their other classes.
3) Use the total from adding steps 1 and 2 to determine their FoB BAB and add any extra attacks that a high BAB would merit (for example, a BAB of 15 would be +15/+10/+0 whereas a BAB of 16 would be +16/+11/+6/+1).
4) If the number of monk levels is greater than 8 add one extra attack for ITWF (at -5).
5) If the number of monk levels is greater than 15 add one extra attack for GTWF (at -10).
6) Subtract 2 from each attack to represent TWF.
Hmm, I think your method is the best so far to get the point.
I missed the point about Monk BAB for Monk Levels = Monk Level for all purposes including more iterative attacks from BAB.So the simplified psuedo code is:
Split_Iterative_Attack(Monk_Level + Other_BAB -2)
include (Monk_Level + Other_BAB -2) if Monk_Level<=7
include (Monk_Level + Other_BAB -7) if Monk_Level<=14
include (Monk_Level + Other_BAB -12) if Monk_Level>=15
This solves the problem I was trying to solve (not granting extra attacks by accident from looking at Monk progression) and is easy to use.
Thanks