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My question is can the party rogue uses stealth to avoid detection by a creature with blindsense? (e.g. hiding in the bushes from a dragon).
What about a shadow dancer in a shadow?
It seems pretty clear that Pathfinder's explanation of blindsense is that no, stealth does not work as long as the creature with blindsense has line of effect to the target. Furthermore, blindsnse can still detect invisibilbe creatures (although they still suffer the 50% miss chance to hit them).
This pretty much negates anyone's ability to hide from such a creature. My thought process was what about a rogue, hiding along the ground, couldn't stealth be used to blend in and have the dragon "miss" the PC because they're being still and near the natural environment?
Thoughts? Was this an oversight? Are the Shadow Dancer's HIPS ability or the Ranger's Camouflage ability completely worthless here?
My next questions, is there any way (spell or item) to get around blindsense (other than etherealness or incorporeal)?
FYI Blindsense description: Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
My question is can the party rogue uses stealth to avoid detection by a creature with blindsense? (e.g. hiding in the bushes from a dragon).
What about a shadow dancer in a shadow?
It seems pretty clear that Pathfinder's explanation of blindsense is that no, stealth does not work as long as the creature with blindsense has line of effect to the target. Furthermore, blindsnse can still detect invisibilbe creatures (although they still suffer the 50% miss chance to hit them).
This pretty much negates anyone's ability to hide from such a creature. My thought process was what about a rogue, hiding along the ground, couldn't stealth be used to blend in and have the dragon "miss" the PC because they're being still and near the natural environment?
Thoughts? Was this an oversight? Are the Shadow Dancer's HIPS ability or the Ranger's Camouflage ability completely worthless here?
My next questions, is there any way (spell or item) to get around blindsense (other than etherealness or incorporeal)?
FYI Blindsense description: Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
As long as you are within line of affect the creature knows you are there.
Being Incorporeal or Ethereal is about the only way to get around it.If the monster's ability is based on sound* then using the silence spel may work.
*Some creatures point this out specifically. There are not many and without that distinction there is no hiding, at least not at the level you of it not knowing you are around anyway. The good thing is blindsense normally as a limit in distance so if you can walk around the creature that might work.
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Darkstalker
Type: General
Source: Lords of Madness
You have learned how to stalk and surprise creatures whose senses are very different from those of a humanoid.
Benefit: When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can flank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.
Normal: Creatures with these senses do not need to make Spot or listen checks to notice other creatures within range. Creatures with all-around vision can't be flanked.
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.Great catch, Snobi.
That's a nice feat to have. I'll have to think about it.
Thanks!
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Note that blindsense only reveals the location of the creature, it doesn't make them plainly visible. Thus, you can be stealthed against a creature with blindsense....the creature would know exactly where you are, but you would still not be visible to the creature and it would suffer the appropriate miss chances if it tried to attack you.
For instance, if you are invisible a blindsense creature would know exactly where you are, but would still suffer a 50% miss chance when trying to attack you. Or if you are in an area of darkness you could be stealthed and the creature could not see you, but it would know that you are where you are.
BlindSIGHT actually negates the miss chances as well as pinpointing the targets location. Its nearly impossible to be stealthy against a creature with blindsight.
Note that blindsense only reveals the location of the creature, it doesn't make them plainly visible. Thus, you can be stealthed against a creature with blindsense....the creature would know exactly where you are, but you would still not be visible to the creature and it would suffer the appropriate miss chances if it tried to attack you.
Exactly. So it works in the sense that you might have total concealment, but you're still pinpointed.
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By the book, stealth doesn't work; you really need to errata/fiat to prevent it from being worthless.
Aaaaand, we're off. Let's see how long we can go before someone mentions 'stealing a chicken', eh?
Oh. Hang on...;)I do believe it would help if a creature's description gave more detail of how it's blindsense/blindsight worked.
If you're trying to avoid being detected by a bat-like sentry, then it helps to know that it 'sees' via sonar, and can thus be fooled/deafened/blinded by silence effects or excessive background noise.
If an eyeless construct senses the heat given off by living creatures, then you could maybe march an army of skeletons past it, without a response, or bring up a fire shield and run in, along with several summoned fire elementals, and it may not be able to distinguish you as a specific individual.
Even if the designers don't want to write specific counters for every creature, or subtype of blindsense, a few words of flavour in the specific creature's ability description can be a great help to adjudicate efforts to bypass that ability.
GMs could reward scouts/sentries who do their research, and/or hinder those who don't (whether by ruling an autopass, autofail, or applying bonuses/penalties), based on generally agreed monster-lore, without having to hear the words 'fiat', 'mother-may-I', or 'ass-pull'.
And that's got to be an improvement, right?
By the book, stealth doesn't work; you really need to errata/fiat to prevent it from being worthless.Aaaaand, we're off. Let's see how long we can go before someone mentions 'stealing a chicken', eh?
Oh. Hang on...;)I do believe it would help if a creature's description gave more detail of how it's blindsense/blindsight worked.
If you're trying to avoid being detected by a bat-like sentry, then it helps to know that it 'sees' via sonar, and can thus be fooled/deafened/blinded by silence effects or excessive background noise.
If an eyeless construct senses the heat given off by living creatures, then you could maybe march an army of skeletons past it, without a response, or bring up a fire shield and run in, along with several summoned fire elementals, and it may not be able to distinguish you as a specific individual.
Even if the designers don't want to write specific counters for every creature, or subtype of blindsense, a few words of flavour in the specific creature's ability description can be a great help to adjudicate efforts to bypass that ability.
GMs could reward scouts/sentries who do their research, and/or hinder those who don't (whether by ruling an autopass, autofail, or applying bonuses/penalties), based on generally agreed monster-lore, without having to hear the words 'fiat', 'mother-may-I', or 'ass-pull'.
And that's got to be an improvement, right?
I think Concerro brought up the fact that some creatures have it listed when it is dependant on a specific sense. If you read the ability description it states that the ability Blindsight (and I quote) is "the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of senses) to operate effectively without vision." Read further and you will see the following (again quoted) "Blindsense: Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight."
This means that the ability isn't foiled by loss of any particular sense or another (blindness, deafness, inability to scent). It is created to not be "short cutted" by anything. IE you aren't supposed to get around it or be able to foil it... Unless the creator of the creature decided to lessen the ability by giving a specific way to do so (it states in the creature description that the ability is nullified when the creature can't hear, etc.). If you really want to give a character the ability to bypass it, the feat Darkstalker is very good investment and completely worth it.
Darkstalker is a more or less mandatory feat if you want to sneak past level 9.
Darkstalker is a more or less mandatory feat if you want to sneak past level 9.
I like it (the feat) but I don't necessarily agree with that. It depends on the campaign. Blindsight is damn rare, I think dragons are the only creatures that have it with any degree of certainty. Blindsense isn't very common either. If you are a combat "sneak" concealment is enough to allow you to get off your sneak attacks, yeah it sucks that they can tell which square you are in (automatically if they have blindsight/sense, automatically if they have scent and you are within 5' - otherwise a move to check the direction) but honestly... You're going to be attempting to flank regardless most of the time and that limits where you might be fairly well by itself. If you are trying to be a non combat skill monkey, yeah I guess it is "mandatory" as you won't be useful in combat and you are focusing on things other than that. If you are building a rounded character who can handle themselves in combat as well, total concealment for the initial attack against anything that doesn't have blindsight and flanking after that, does the job fairly well. Well enough that the feat is nice, but not mandatory.
Actually dragons only have "blindsense". The Blindsight ability is the stronger of the two.
Darkstalker is a more or less mandatory feat if you want to sneak past level 9.
How was it done before that book came out, I wonder..?
It depends on what you want to use the stealth for. Do you want to sneak past the blindsensing guard without him noticing your precense? Then Stealth wont work. Do you want to use Stealth to not be seen to catch the blindsensing guard flat-footed for a sneak attack? Yeah, you can do that. He'll know roughly where you are, but not well enough to defend himself properly.
Edit: Had a player take that feat, ugh. It was in the Age of Worms AP. Dread Wraiths and True Ghouls possess Lifesense which darkstalker didnt work against. He was not happy.
Actually dragons only have "blindsense". The Blindsight ability is the stronger of the two.
Correct, it was late, my apologies.
My question is can the party rogue uses stealth to avoid detection by a creature with blindsense? (e.g. hiding in the bushes from a dragon).
Nope.
What about a shadow dancer in a shadow?
Nope. Despite the name, they're not any more hidden than anyone else.
It seems pretty clear that Pathfinder's explanation of blindsense is that no, stealth does not work as long as the creature with blindsense has line of effect to the target. Furthermore, blindsnse can still detect invisibilbe creatures (although they still suffer the 50% miss chance to hit them).
It was pretty much the same under 3.5
This pretty much negates anyone's ability to hide from such a creature. My thought process was what about a rogue, hiding along the ground, couldn't stealth be used to blend in and have the dragon "miss" the PC because they're being still and near the natural environment?
No. If the dragons blind sense is smell you still smell like rock, if its hearing you still have a heartbeat, if its sonar flesh looks VERY different under sonar than rocks.
Thoughts? Was this an oversight? Are the Shadow Dancer's HIPS ability or the Ranger's Camouflage ability completely worthless here?
Its one of the legitimate points in the why try to stealth arguments.
My next questions, is there any way (spell or item) to get around blindsense (other than etherealness or incorporeal)?
I got nothing.
Silence will stop bats from detecting your square but not your presence. (a big round ball that registers "nothing" shows up on a bat's sonar the same way a big ball of blackness shows up to a sighted creature)
My understanding is yes, this was by design, and it was done intentionally so rogues and stealth-based rangers, monks, bards, assassins, shadowdancers, etc. did not have an automatic win button versus every creature in the game.
Very few creatures have blindsense, blindsight, or tremorsense, and for those that do it makes a great deal of... well, sense.
A specifically stealth built character can sneak past so very, very many creatures (says I, who's had a player with a halfling fighter/rogue/shadowdancer that could tiptoe past a creature covered in ears), even those with decent Perception, that having a few creatures that have a way of bypassing it is not really that big a deal. That's just the time the stealth built character adjusts to different tactics (rogues flank and sneak attack, shadow dancers summon their shadows, etc.).
Dragons have Blindsense specifically because of Smaug detecting the invisible Bilbo in The Hobbit. Yes, Blindsense foils stealth (and invisibility) to the degree of pinpointing the creature, but not removing the total concealment. You need Blindsight for that, which is fairly rare.
My next questions, is there any way (spell or item) to get around blindsense (other than etherealness or incorporeal)?
Hide from Animals
School abjuration; Level druid 1, ranger 1Casting Time 1 standard action
Components S, DF
Range touch
Targets one creature touched/level
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes
Animals cannot sense the warded creatures. Even extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures. Animals simply act as though the warded creatures are not there. If a warded character touches an animal or attacks any creature, even with a spell, the spell ends for all recipients.
Only spell that I have found that hides you from it, but only vs. animals. So you can hide from the dogs or giant bats, but not the dragon.
My next questions, is there any way (spell or item) to get around blindsense (other than etherealness or incorporeal)?Hide from Animals
School abjuration; Level druid 1, ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components S, DF
Range touch
Targets one creature touched/level
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes
Animals cannot sense the warded creatures. Even extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures. Animals simply act as though the warded creatures are not there. If a warded character touches an animal or attacks any creature, even with a spell, the spell ends for all recipients.Only spell that I have found that hides you from it, but only vs. animals. So you can hide from the dogs or giant bats, but not the dragon.
I'd say just create a 3rd or 4th level version of this spell that works against all creatures and lasts 1 min./level.
Then a 5th or 6th level version that lasts 1 rnd./level and doesn't drop even if the character touches or attacks.