Hey people,
So, a friend of mine offered me a cookie if I could answer a question about grappling - specifically about the Under and Over feat out of the APG - and he didn't find my answer terribly satisfying. I admit, I'm not 100% certain either, so I thought I'd ask you folks.
First, the text of the feat in question:
Under and Over (Combat)
You can slip under a foe trying to grab you, knocking him off balance.
Prerequisites: Agile Maneuvers, Small size or smaller.
Benefit: If an opponent larger than you attempts to grapple you and fails, you may make a trip attack as an immediate action against that opponent with a +2 bonus. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
And the question: What constitutes an attempt to grapple? Is it only when a creature spends a standard action to begin grappling, or do subsequent attempts to maintain or gain control of a grapple count as "attempts to grapple"?
My answer was that only the initial attempt to begin a grapple count for the purposes of this feat. I pointed to the flavour text that talks about a foe reaching for you, while you quickly dart beneath them.
My friend contests that RAW is what's important (and that flavour text can be misleading), and that any roll made to continue a grapple is an "attempt to grapple". He concedes that trying to escape a grapple is another matter, and wouldn't trigger this feat.
Thoughts? Official rulings? A cookie is on the line here, people.
My answer was that only the initial attempt to begin a grapple count for the purposes of this feat. I pointed to the flavour text that talks about a foe reaching for you, while you quickly dart beneath them.
My friend contests that RAW is what's important (and that flavour text can be misleading), and that any roll made to continue a grapple is an "attempt to grapple". He concedes that trying to escape a grapple is another matter, and wouldn't trigger this feat.
Thoughts? Official rulings? A cookie is on the line here, people.
First tell him that what's important is NOT RAW, but RAI ;)
Second : beginning a grapple tells it all : it's at the begining of the succession of grapple check... Not the check to maintain grapple.
But if the first grapple check fail then he can do it again if his adversary try another grapple check next round, 'cause it will be the beginning of new grapple checks... ;)
Well, grapple checks come in three forms: beginning a grapple, maintaining a grapple and reversing/breaking a grapple.
Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Note that only initiating a grapple is called an "attempt to grapple". Maintaining a grapple is just another check. Breaking a grapple is only referred to as an "attempt" when it talks about doing something other than making a check to break/reverse and instead make another action. But, even in this reference, it is called an "attempt to break or reverse a grapple" and not an "attempt to grapple".
RAW (and I would suspect RAI) would indicate that only grapple initiations that fail trigger the use of this feat. Just keep in mind that, as a small character, you can only use this feat against medium sized foes because of the limitations of the trip combat maneuver.
Trip
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
Thanks for the swift replies! I love this place. ^__^ I will win that cookie yet - it is oatmeal chocolate chip, too.
However, I just noticed some similar text in the wording of Improved Grapple:
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to grapple you.
Does this also apply only on the initial grapple attempt? I have always applied it to CMD whenever grapple is involved, but it's starting to sound like the same problem as with Under and Over.
"Tries to grapple you" and "attempts a grapple" may mean the same thing in normal English, but this is a roleplaying game! The rules of normal English do not apply! [/snark]
By RAW, it could possibly be ruled that it only applies to someone initiating a grapple against you or trying to reverse a grapple (but not breaking it, though they are the same action). At my table (and in Hero Lab, which I use to build all my NPCs) the Improved X and Greater X combat maneuver feats' bonus to CMD is applied to all attempts of that maneuver type.
Well, I get a cookie for effort, I'm told.
Well, I get a cookie for effort, I'm told.
It's from a player ? Don't forget to cast "detect poison" and "detect magic" on it... Sometimes players can be nasty with their god... :p