Hi guys,
New to DnD/pathfinder (but trying real hard!) and looking for some help to make a Paladin to fill an empty spot in a group that seems (to my limited knowledge) to be quite optimized. My only DND experience is with NWN, Baldur's Gate, etc. The DM did a 25-point buy and scales the CR accordingly. I'm hopping in at level 10, Pathfinder core rulebook only.
Other members of the group: Cleric, Barbarian (2h), Wizard
My goal is to be a "Tank" character, one that can be in the thick of things helping to give the barbarian flanking as well as dish out some damage on his own. I don't want a character that can break the game by any means but I want to be able to have those "Daaaayum" moments, particularly when smiting those evil do-ers. :)
I've been perusing various guides and trying to learn as much as possible and this is what I've come up with so far. Forgive my ignorance if this is terrible... And also if I calculated something wrong :P
--- Stats [with items] ---
STR: 16 [20]
DEX: 15 (17, racial) [17]
CON: 13 (14, +1 level) [14]
INT: 10 [10]
WIS: 8 [8]
CHA: 15 (16, +1 level) [20]
--- Feat Progression ---
cLvl Feat / Attribute
1) TWF, Improved Shield Bash
2)
3) Double Slice
4) +Con
5) Power Attack (???)
6)
7) Improved TWF
8) +Cha
9) Shield Slam
11) Shield Master (Planned)
12) +Str
--- Gear - 62kgp wealth ---
+2 Keen Scimitar
+1 Bashing Light Steel Shield w/ Masterwork Shield Spikes
Masterwork Composite Longbow (I'm told I need a ranged backup)
+2 Full platemail
+1 Ring of Protection
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor
+4 Belt of Giant Strength
Boots of Striding and Springing
+2 Cloak of Resistance
+2 Headband of Alluring Charisma
with ~6k to spare if my calculations are correct
My questions basically boil down to this:
1) Is this build going to be effective for the goals I desire?
a) Can it be improved any way? Gear? Feats? Attributes?
2) Would it be better to drop the TWF motif and just wear my shield and use it like a shield? I'm having to dump a lot of attributes into dex for the requirements. My reasoning was that smite damage applies to every hit so it would be better to maximize the number of attacks per round. Would it be better to drop that and just go all out STR and depend on my scimitar to be enough?
3) Unrelated to my build, but on a standard action attack do you attack with both weapons?
4) Anyone have some sort of damage calculator tool where I can plug numbers in and it shows a fight against a appropriate CR monster?
5) Would I be better off just going fighter?
Edit: More Questions
6) Would a Rod of Extend work for extending Divine Favor/Bull's Strength/etc? Would it be worth it if it does work?
Thanks in advance everyone!
7) A paladin can use divine wands without the Use Magic Device Skill, correct?
-JT
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Hail and hello!
In answer to your questions as numbered:
1) Paladin in general is great for the kind of role you envisage.
2) As interesting as the TWF motif is, it's probably not your best option. As you said, you have lots in dex, which you're not getting the most benefit out of wearingn full plate. So it's not neccesarily 'optimum', but is certainly 'cool' and your character doesn't look rubbish at all.
Is your Divine bond a mount or a weapon? If it's a mount you could try some of the mounted combat feats
3) A standard action lets you make a single attack with one weapon. You need to make a full attack in order to attack with both weapons.
4) I don't know. I don't think you need one though, and the game's about more than crunching numbers
5) Not particularly (Especially given the kind of role you envisage).
6) A Rod of extend would extend the duration of those spells. It would be worth it if you find that your buffs are running out, and you want them to be lasting longer. Wait and see how it goes once you start playing:)
7) A paladin can use divine wands as long as the spell appears on his spell list, even if he can't cast spells yet. Thus a level 1 paladin could use a wand of cure light wounds, but not one of Summon Nature's Ally.
Hope that helps, and hope you have fun smiting evil in the name of all that is good and righteous!
To add to/reiterate some of what's already been said:
I think paladins have a great potential to tank - and by "tank" I don't mean what it means in MMMOs, exactly. You will not necessarily draw attacks; a good tank in D&D is someone who is willing and able to put his/herself in a dangerous position for the benefit of the team. That means you should be able to take attacs/damage if (and probably when) it happens, and preferably be mobile. You should also be able to do something other than just stand there, though, as you don't have to tank a monster if it's dead. ^__^
Heavy armor, solid HP, amazing saves, immunity to fear effects, and lay on hands make are your assets as a paladin tank. Being able to use lay on hands as a swift action on yourself is fantastic.
In terms of combat style, sword and board is fine, but as mentioned above, TWF isn't necessarily your best option. If you're trying to set up flanking situations, you should decide which one of you is going to do the acrobatics (probably the barbarian), and who is going to sit there in the other, easier-to-reach position. The person who's doing the sitting is likely going to get more full attacks, and thus can benefit a little more from TWF - this is super when you smite. The person doing the acrobatics and positioning should be more interested in a two-hander build to get the most out of single attacks.
I think I would avoid the TWF feats due to the dex requirements, and put those extra points in Wisdom - otherwise, no spellcasty goodness for you. Even a few low-level spells can really help out, and you can wear heavier armor to make up the difference in AC. You get a bigger armor check penalty, though, but that's fine if you aren't the one doing the acrobatics to get into position. If you're bent on being Mr. Mobile, consider keeping the high dex, wearing agile mithral armor, etc, but I feel this option is weaker; the barbarian just does it better.
Talk to the barbarian and see if he's interested in any teamwork feats. Outflank and Precise Strike aren't terrible. Paired Opportunists is super if one of you is optimized for crits, but it doesn't work while flanking. If you keep at least a little Dex (12 or 14), Combat Reflexes > Stand Still can be a great way to keep tanking, as there's nothing more annoying to a tank than a monster who won't sit still.
I think you should go on foot, as horseback is awkward, and unless you know you're going to be spending most of your time above ground, on relatively even territory, mounted feats are a gamble. I'm usually more comfortable with a mounted character who is small, as a medium mount can go places that a large one can't. So maybe choose the other divine bond.
In terms of your stat upgrades at every 4th level, I would take Charisma first to get to 16 ASAP. Con at level 4 only gets you 4 more HP and better fort saves; the Cha bonus gives you an extra lay on hands, +1 to hit while smiting, and +1 to all saves, including fort. It's better to pick up Con at level 8, when the bonus means more.
Sword and Board is a tough fighting style to pull off with a paladin:
First: It requires a good amount of money (main weapon needs to be enchanted, shield needs to be enchanted, shield spike needs to be enchanted, so that is three magic items, before you buy yor other goodies).
Second: it requires an investment into a stat that is not very tankerrific (Dexterity, which just gets hammered by armor).
Third: it requires an investment of 7 feats...9 if you want to be gravy at it. Human Paladin gets 11 feats. That isn't a lot.
On to tanking:
So, lets look at AC. If you want to have a "nobody ever hits me" tank, you will need an AC 50. that is 40 points of AC we needs to come up with. Mithril Full Plate gives us 12 points (9armor, 3dex), Amulte of Natural Armor gives us 5 points, ring of deflection gives us 5 points (remember your smite AC bonus does NOT stack with ring of deflection :(; or your protection from evil spell). So we are at 22. Well, a light shield is +1...add in enhancement bonuses on that and the armor for +10 and we are at 33. So, that isn't too bad your AC is 43 and you are packed up with all the standard items. This tells us a couple things that many people on the boards will agree with, in that a high AC is nice, but it is not your best form of protection.
So, the question you want to ask yourself is, do I have to be a pure paladin, or do I want to consider some dips into other classes. Don't get me wrong, Pally is an awesome class. But you may want to look into multiclassing dips to round out your optimization a bit more.
Gear:
As mentioned before, you need to be able to free up one hand for LoH. That is why you have a light shield, so you can hold your weapon in your shield hand while you LoH. In general, most people will agree that (unless you are a rogue, or a fighter with a crap-ton of feats) weilding two weapons is sub-optimal, even if it is sword and board. That is why most people suggest going with the big 2hander, you can hold it in one hand while using your abilities and spells, you don't need to spend any feats on it, and it only has the cost of one weapon for enhancing magically. Combine that with an animated shield, and now you can fight with a two handed weapon and have your shield floating around in front of you. Sure it only last for 4 rounds, but in general, those first 4 rounds are the rounds that minions are getting cleared away by your party, while you are taking a beating from the BBEG.
Ability Scores:
You need strength and charisma. my suggestion with a 25 point buy would be Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16, and place your racial bonus from human into strength. You want to hit, and you want to hit hard...Strength makes you hit and damage better all the time, Charisma makes you hit better some of the time, so strength gets priority. A charisma 16 is great for a base as a pally, your cha increasing item will boost it to even better. Put all your ability score increases into strength, it is..by far, your most important stat.
An optimization path:
One of my personal favorite, and now we are getting into opinion optimization so skip it if you want, is to take a 5 level dip and take Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 4. It nets you a Natural Armor of 3 (stacks with amulet of natural armor), energy resist 5, weapons for if your wonderful sword is sundered/disarmed/disintegrated [I cried a little after that last one...it was a beautiful sword], a strength increase of +4 (that is +2 to hit and damage) and second level arcane spells. That means, you can get a metagamic rod (quicken) and cast a shield spell that lasts 4 minutes, as a swift action on the first round, basically giving you a +7 to AC..the same as a heavy shield.
Feats:
Really only a couple are mandatory if you don't go the TWF route: Power Attack and Cleave. Improved Critical and Critical Focus are nice also, as is Improved Initiative (you can snag that from Dragon Disciple list too btw).
And that is all I can think of at this moment. And from what it looks like, most people seem to be in agreement with me and I type slow :/
Thanks for the quick responses everyone!
Curses! Seems like TWF is only optimal if you have some sort of alternative damage output ability (Sneaks)... I guess thinking about it this was true with Neverwinter from my experience as well.
I think I would avoid the TWF feats due to the dex requirements, and put those extra points in Wisdom - otherwise, no spellcasty goodness for you.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought Paladins used Charisma for spellcasting? Having to balance Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Cha?... UGH!
Looks like I have some rebuilding to do. Back to the excel sheets for me. :) I'll post up a build here in the next few hours... anyone have advice on good feats for now?
read the handbook on masochist tanking (in the PRD)
Can't seem to find it, have a link? I do like the motif of the paladin I think, and unless fighter is just better for what I want then I will try to play a Paladin.
I did mean "tank" in a non-MMO sense.. more of a "I'll open the doors first" kind of tank rather than Taunting and holding aggro hehe.
Are there any good prestige classes for a paladin in core?
Also... So if you are using a light shield in your offhand as a weapon you don't have a free hand for LoH?
Third: it requires an investment of 7 feats...9 if you want to be gravy at it. Human Paladin gets 11 feats. That isn't a lot.
Yeah, I noticed that in the building of him =(. Which feats would you recommend for a sword and board paladin?
This tells us a couple things that many people on the boards will agree with, in that a high AC is nice, but it is not your best form of protection.
So, the question you want to ask yourself is, do I have to be a pure paladin, or do I want to consider some dips into other classes. Don't get me wrong, Pally is an awesome class. But you may want to look into multiclassing dips to round out your optimization a bit more.
Forgive my ignorance, what is the better form of protection?
What would you recommend dipping into?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought Paladins used Charisma for spellcasting? Having to balance Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Cha?... UGH!
You are correct, in Pathfinder paladins are Charisma-based spellcasters.
In 3.5 their casting was based on Wisdom instead, requiring attention to all the abilities you've mentioned. The switch to Charisma was a change that was applauded almost universally by players of paladins everywhere.
Also... So if you are using a light shield in your offhand as a weapon you don't have a free hand for LoH?
While using a light shield as a shield, you can use your shield hand to deliver touch spells and even cast. I don't recall ever seeing this particular situation mentioned, though. I'd recommend speaking with your GM, as I can see reasons to both allow and disallow this.
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The post that Ardenup was referencing is THIS ONE. It's an absolutely great source of information for paladins wanting to squeeze a bit more out of their class, and it goes into detail about what works, what doesn't, and why. Take a look.
Godspeed, and may the Light be with you.
1. Paladins use Charisma for casting, and pretty much everything else.
2. Dex limited by armor..best you will get is +3 (using items), don't invest ability points into it. Yes your reflex save kinda stinks...that is why you have hit points :)
3. Hit Points are one form of mitigation, as a tank type, you can never have too many hit points. This needs to be balanced by the fact that, con is not really important to you otherwise, your fort save is good...and gets your charisma added for extra seasoning. So, con drops to a secondary stat.
4. Wisdom, see above about Con. But wisdom doesn't give you any hit points, so it drops to a tertiary stat (I wouldn't use it as a dump stat)
5. Technically, we can't tell you what would be better for you for optimization. Other than "Opening Doors", "That wow factor" and being a "Tank" you haven't given us much of an idea of what you want him to be doing. So, we can't give you much build advice. Technically, a Sundering Barbarian can "open a door with that wow factor" by bursting it into thousands of tiny pieces. So fighter, rogue, sorcerer, pure pally...best path for you: unknown. I can create an optimized build that I think is fun, but you won't necessarily like it.
6. I'll be honest here about prestige classes...only start dipping into them if you hybridize your character. Pathfinder punishes multiclassing, and prestige classes are a way to shore up some of those punishments. So again, this comes back to what was said in #5.
7. The low down on shields:
****Buckler (straps to forearm) can hold AND use stuff in your shield hand, with various penalties blah blah blah.
****Light Shield (straps to forearm, held with hand) can hold stuff in your shield hand, but you can't do anything with it. No attacks, no defense, no touchy touchy.
****Heavy Shield (straps to forearm and hand) can not hold stuff in your shield hand, can not use your shield hand for anything but holding your shield.
If you are using a light shield, you can hold your weapon in your shield hand as a free action to use your weapon hand as your casting/LoH hand.
8. Better forms of protection = miss chance. Blur, concealment, anything that gives the enemy a miss chance will save your bacon more than AC. For example: The blur spell...level 2 gives 20% miss chance. That is 4 points of AC. If you blind your opponent, that is 50% miss chance...that is worth 10 points of AC. There are several ways to come about miss chances, AC is the toughest one to get.
9. So lets do this....getting back to #5. Write us a paragraph describing what you see in your minds eye. Start it like this...
"Strolling down from the top of a rounded hill, a figure silhouetted by the dawning sun comes charging down to face a bloodsplattered ogre with the unconscious bodies of his former combatants strewn at his feet....
Tell us what you see....
The post that Ardenup was referencing is THIS ONE. It's an absolutely great source of information for paladins wanting to squeeze a bit more out of their class, and it goes into detail about what works, what doesn't, and why. Take a look.
Godspeed, and may the Light be with you.
Excellent, this looks great, thanks guys. I'll peruse this and then post up a new build for critiques =)
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Off hand knowing I was starting at 10th level, optimization for a human front-line pally is:
Str: 18 + 2 stat bumps + item = 22
Int: 7 (with human you still get 2 skill points, and skills for pally after diplomacy are mostly wasted).
Wis: 7 (points for con/cha will do far more)
Dex: 7 (at 10th level you can have a 7 here, AC stops being as important at that level)
Con: 16 +2 stat item = 18 (hp are your bread and butter)
Chr: 18 + 4 stat item = 22
AC just isn't relevant; any tanking mosters that will give you trouble autohit anyway, and your full plate will at least keep fodder back. You heal 5d6 as a free action, so focus on saves, high hp, and damage output.
Swing a +1 Holy sword, it's paladiny to do so. Vs evil it puts your damage output through roof.
Sword-and-board "AC matters" characters are much, much better as fighters; focus on what pallys do best, deal damage and be indestructible.
I think I would avoid the TWF feats due to the dex requirements, and put those extra points in Wisdom - otherwise, no spellcasty goodness for you.Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought Paladins used Charisma for spellcasting? Having to balance Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Cha?... UGH!
Woo, brainfart! Sorry, you're completely right. That's what I get for posting before breakfast!
1) Is this build going to be effective for the goals I desire?
Yes, it takes time to get good but you're starting at level 10 so no problem.
a) Can it be improved any way? Gear? Feats? Attributes?
Well:
Gear:
-A mithral Fullplate is within budget and and can be upgraded by friendly casters, it would be dificult to find one passing character creation.
-A +2 keen schimithar is not so great since geater magic weapon works almost all adventuring day long and you can bypass damage reduction while smiting, a +1 keen schimithar will save you 10 000 gps. Speak to caster's players to ask them if they are willing to take that load, in team terms its bette, but you its their choice.
-From level 11 and on you will add the enhancement bonuses from shield to its attack so give it priority.
-Pearls of power are very nicefor paladins.
Stats: I recommend
19 (17,+2 racial)
17 (16,+1 level)
12
7
7
16 (15 +1 level)
-Dump Int: you were sacrificing 4 stat points for 1 skill point per level, James Jacobs said that you'll get the extra for being human any way 2 skills per level to go (bonus points if his battle cry is ¨Butt kicking for goodnes¨ or repeats ¨I fight in the name of justice¨ ad nauseum even when out of context)
-Dump Wis: you have a strong base save and you add charisma to it so you really don't need it.
-12 Con: you're Lay on Hands works as fast 17 entra hit points per round and your fortitude is good any way. Also, high AC offset lack of hit points.
2) Would it be better to drop the TWF motif and just wear my shield and use it like a shield? I'm having to dump a lot of attributes into dex for the requirements. My reasoning was that smite damage applies to every hit so it would be better to maximize the number of attacks per round. Would it be better to drop that and just go all out STR and depend on my scimitar to be enough?
No, the build you presented is one bests at at dealing damage while smiting (pure two-weapon figthing beats it) and can holds his grouns quite well against anything else.
3) Unrelated to my build, but on a standard action attack do you attack with both weapons?
No, but you do not suffer the TWF penaltis in the standar action attack. You will be generally better casting a spell in most of that situation if the battle have just started (cast and move to block line of charge).
4) Anyone have some sort of damage calculator tool where I can plug numbers in and it shows a fight against a appropriate CR monster?
Can´t help you here.
5) Would I be better off just going fighter?
If you aren't going to face lots of evil in the campaing sure, but even then you will have more durability and versatility than your standard fighter.
Edit: More Questions
6) Would a Rod of Extend work for extending Divine Favor/Bull's Strength/etc? Would it be worth it if it does work?
Yes, but you'll need two free hands to cast the spell making it hard to use in combat without gloves of storing. It would be handy if enter dungeons SWAT style.
7) A paladin can use divine wands without the Use Magic Device Skill, correct?
Not exactly, wands make no differentiation between arcane and divine, those are scrolls. To use a wands you must have the spell on your spell list.
Humbly,
Yawar
I'm currently playing a 7th level character similar to what you're looking at. I took 5 levels of paladin, then 2 levels of fighter.
As a human, and with the 2 levels of fighter, I have enough extra feats to pull off the 2WF thing pretty easily. It's working pretty well so far. Mostly, I hit with both weapons when I'm smiting, and power attack with the sword when I'm not smiting.
Well, I toyed around with some of the things I have distilled from all of you posts, and I worked this up. It is not a fantastic build, but it will do the job of being a great flanking partner for the barbarian, and being able to two-weapon fight. It is built to level 13 only to fit in all the feats....
Paladin 4/Rogue 3/Fighter 6... BAB+11, Sneak Attack +2d6, Smite Evil 2/day
Feats:
1: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash
3: Double Slice
5: Endurance
6: Weapon Finesse (Rogue Talent)
7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
8: Shield Slam
9: feat, feat [choose two feats that work to make the character your own]
11: Weapon Focus and Specialization [short sword]
13: Two Weapon Rend, Shield Master
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16. Put your Racial into Dex. Put your first attribute point into Dex and then leave your Dex alone, putting the others into strength.
Gear:
***Mithril Full Plate Armor: +9 armor bonus +4 dex bonus (1 from armor, 2 from mithril, 1 from fighter armor training...and your Dex bonus is +4...congrats)
***Sunblade...bastard sword damage...but you treat it like a short sword. In addition, the weapon focus and the weapon training from fighter will get rid of the -2 penalty to your primary hand for TWFing. With Shield Master getting rid of the penalty for your shield, you end up with no TWF penalty to BAB, and only one point behind on BAB. Weapon Finesse lets you use your Dex for to hit so Bravo again.
Other points:
**With your Dex at 19, you qualify for Manyshot. With those two feats at 8, you can pick up Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot. Then at 15 grab Manyshot, 17 Deadly Aim, and now you are a TWFing paladin that can archer smite. Try to fly away from me..har har.
** I snagged Endurance for you..why? To qualify for the Horizon Walker class. 3 levels in that, and you can fly 3+Wis mod times per day, or several other really, really nice perks out of that class that can shore up some of your weakness.
**Greater Two Weapon Fighting is not that great of a feat, the bonus already sits at -10, and your shield spike, even if it is keen, only crits on a 19/20, but, there are many other worse feats to choose from.
This build gives you some additional flexibility in your character to customize, and still accomplishes what goals you have listed for us.
EDIT
Forgot to mention your AC. Armor 9, Dex 4, Shield 1. That is AC24 without any enhancements. Through in all the enhancments lets say +3 sounds about right for level 10 and we get: Armor 12, Dex 4, Shield 4, Ring of Protection +3, Amulet of Natural Armor +3 for AC 36. That is a decent AC for level 10.
Look at feats that would make you a target (as well as weapons).
Gang Up is a great choice -- if two of your buddies are hitting it and you do two then you are flanking it -- the monster will go after the guy that's getting the extra bonus to hit.
Reach weapons with lunge give you a 15 foot reach -- that's a lot of square to threaten and if they move pass you then attempt to trip -- I would suggest getting combat expertise for improved trip/greater trip.
Power Attack is great for piling on the damage with a two handed weapon.
TwF is not good for tanking -- it eats up too many feats and requires you to stand still -- you are going to want to move in front of the enemy to get and keep his attention.
The Bodyguard feat allows you to aid your allies instead of taking AoOs -- if you are making your allies harder to hit then you become more of a target.
Feat suggestions:
h -- Combat Expertise
1st -- Power attack
3rd -- Improved Trip
5th -- Combat Reflexes
7th -- Lunge
9th -- Swift Aid (gives you something to do with your swift action when you are in good shape HP wise)
11th -- bodyguard/greater trip
The trip feats are good to use to hold them in place -- which you want to do as a tank.
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The guide, "Masochism for Fun and Profit," is a great help. I've used it for my own Paladin who is now up to level 14.
Stats (note that it too is a 25 point buy):
Str 18(+2 racial) Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 16
Here is what I have feat wise.
1 Power Attack
1h Extra Lay on Hands
3 Step Up
5 Improved Overrun
7 Intimidating Prowess
9 Improved Critical (Falchion)
11 Critical Focus
13 Staggering Critical
A great deal of that can be shifted about. Intimidating Prowess can be switched out if you don't want to do the social stuff. Step Up can be similarly swapped out but it's a great feat.
I don't need a high dex because its value to my AC was greatly minimized by Lay on Hands. What I do have is a high enough Str to hit reliably which for my GM and many others will keep attention focused on me. This and a lower AC is foundational to the Paladin IMO. A high AC can actually be kind of counterproductive.
I think a build like this one will fulfill your hopes for the character and be a ton of fun.
The Travel Devotion feat allows the paladin to move her base movement as a swift action. If you're trying to maximize how often you can get a full attack in order to use both your sword and your shield bash, this is a pretty awesome feat.
The guide, "Masochism for Fun and Profit," is a great help. I've used it for my own Paladin who is now up to level 14.
Stats (note that it too is a 25 point buy):
Str 18(+2 racial) Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 16Here is what I have feat wise.
1 Power Attack
1h Extra Lay on Hands
3 Step Up
5 Improved Overrun
7 Intimidating Prowess
9 Improved Critical (Falchion)
11 Critical Focus
13 Staggering Critical
This is really close to what I was thinking about switching my Paladin v2.0 to. It seems more simple, with less reliance on Dex. I have some sort of irrational crush on AC though and it bothers me that I won't have a high number on there but reading that guide, Thalon brings up some good points. I don't know how the DM in this group will play, but I can see him seeking squishier targets.
And hopefully I can get some buffs to help me out if I'm getting smashed too hard for my LoH to keep up with. How many encounters do you normally have around 10th level before resting? Are you going to be blowing multiple Lay on Hands an encounter or only using it if you get close to death?
Doc Cosmic,
I like your build but I'm still learning a lot and yours seems a lot more complex :) I'm still kinda figuring out how it would work out... but I will definitely look into it.
Seems there is a bit of division though, Yawar is saying that this build is viable for dealing damage when smiting... How is it when you aren't smiting compared to the Two-Hander Paladin variant? And again, like LoH.. how many encounters before you rest? Are you going to have enough smites to throw around to make the TWF worth it?
Damage dealing for the build I posted..
***TWF + flanking with barbarian + smite = smile with glee as you do more with one hand than what the barbarian does with two.
***TWF + smite = smile broadly
***TWF + flanking with barbarian = smile contentedly
***TWF only = feeling very lonely wishing the barbarian would come over and flank for you.
Smite is not generally used every combat, at least, not until you get 4 of them a day, then you can start letting loose with it. Will you ever have enough smites to make TWF worth it...prolly not.
TWF is not about doing lots of damage, its about planning your attacks, using critical feats to give BBEGs conditions, and using your CMB to trip, disarm and mess with your opponents, because 7 tries is better than 4. So TWF is best used when you are looking for quantity over quality.
2h is quality over quantity, when you hit, you "knock things back to basic" [yes, I just got a OoTS quote in], at least that is the point.
TWF is flashy, 2h knocks their lights out.
Of course, the only exception to this rule is the rogue, who turns TWF with flanking into the uber shredder of doom.
As I said with my build, it isn't the most optimized the paladin can get, but it will definitely serve its purpose in your group.
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If you want to be more of 2h Paladin that is neat too. You can do Paladin 5/Sorcerer1/Dragon Disciple 4/Paladin 10, get yourself a silver bracelet of smiting (replaces 4 lost levels of paladin on your smites) and gain level 2 arcane spells [such as shield to boost your AC while 2h-ing it, or blur to give enemy rogues no chance of sneak attacking on you....you can store them in Daggers of spell storing (cheaper than the ring, and easier to access with quick draw from your belt than pearls of power...charge them up at the beginning of everyday before you put on your armor)]
There really are tons of options to go with as a Paladin, it really depends on what YOU want to play, as opposed to what WE can build for you, since we can all make very optimized, very interesting builds for ourselves, but it is YOUR character :)
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My biggest issue with Doc Cosmic's build is that the rogue bits really don't add all that much. 2d6 only adds an average of seven damage to each hit. That seven damage is easily made up by power attacking with a two hander plus the increased damage from your Str score plus the increase in to hit by not shuffling down to 3/4 BAB. It does give you a few levels with a butt ton of skills but if you want skills and full BAB you should just play a Ranger.
The math on TWF shows that even Rogues benefit more from a 2hander than TWF. The extra attacks are not worth the feat tax and decreased chance to hit. I don't think the DPR Olympics came up with a single TWF character that wasn't better with a 2hander.
My biggest issue with Doc Cosmic's build is that the rogue bits really don't add all that much. 2d6 only adds an average of seven damage to each hit. That seven damage is easily made up by power attacking with a two hander plus the increased damage from your Str score plus the increase in to hit by not shuffling down to 3/4 BAB. It does give you a few levels with a butt ton of skills but if you want skills and full BAB you should just play a Ranger.
The math on TWF shows that even Rogues benefit more from a 2hander than TWF. The extra attacks are not worth the feat tax and decreased chance to hit. I don't think the DPR Olympics came up with a single TWF character that wasn't better with a 2hander.
And I agree....but he said he wanted to TWF in his first post. I am just following the vision he has given us to work with. Until he says, I want to go 2h and forget all this TWF stuff, I will try to create the character of his vision, not mine or the DPR Olympics :)
My biggest issue with Doc Cosmic's build is that the rogue bits really don't add all that much. 2d6 only adds an average of seven damage to each hit. That seven damage is easily made up by power attacking with a two hander plus the increased damage from your Str score plus the increase in to hit by not shuffling down to 3/4 BAB. It does give you a few levels with a butt ton of skills but if you want skills and full BAB you should just play a Ranger.
The math on TWF shows that even Rogues benefit more from a 2hander than TWF. The extra attacks are not worth the feat tax and decreased chance to hit. I don't think the DPR Olympics came up with a single TWF character that wasn't better with a 2hander.
Just a quick bit:
The levels in rogue only reduce your power attack by 1 -- which funnily enough makes up for the BAB you lose too.
Since you lose the BAB you subtract 1 less -- since you are only 1 BAB short this ends up being a lesser penalty that exactly matches the lose of bonus -- basically net neutral on your attack roll with a -3 on your damage with a two handed weapon.
So you gain 7 damage from sneak attack -- increase to a save throw (reflex), 20~24 skill points (depending on what your favored class bonus goes to), evasion, trapfinding (so you can disarm magical traps with a skill -- not that you'll really want to in all likelihood -- but you could), two rogue talents (bleeding strike and combat talent -- maybe the weapon focus instead?), and uncanny dodge. You lose 3 points from power attack damage (and lose a point of penalty), -1 from BAB (which you make up for with the reduced penalty from power attack), delay your paladin powers (this is probably the biggest issue) and lose 4~8 HP (again depending on favored class bonus).
So attack bonus wise it comes out a wash.
Damage wise you get a net gain of 4 damage
Skill wise it's a gain
Evasion and uncanny dodge are both nice gains.
Trapfinding is probably a neutral thing for the paladin -- but maybe not.
Rogue talents -- these can really add on for you with either two feats (which you are strapped for), or nice side effects.