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I'm just trying to see how much combat capability can be squeezed out ofthe "fencer" archetype that is traditionally underrepresented in d20 and its predecessors. The PF Duelist is certainly much better than the 3.5 one, though the APG gave fewer options to finesse fighters than I had hoped. My ideas revolve around using either the Free-Hand Fighter archetype or the Weapon Master to get the most out of going Fighter 6 into Duelist or Fighter 7 into Duelist. The issue I keep coming back to is that as far as I can tell, the Int bonus to AC that the class provides counts as part of the character's Dex bonus, meaning, unless I have it wrong, that the Max Dex Bonus on armor will count against the combined total of the character's Dex mod and Canny Defense Int mod bonus. With a character of 7th level and beyond, especially considering stat boosting belts and headbands, that total could go well beyond +6, which is the best that you're going to get outside of Padded Armor (Leather armor or a Mithral Chain Shirt will give +6 Max Dex), and in addition, the character cannot equip a shield and keep the bonuses.
I am unclear though, whether a ring of force shield would count as a shield for those purposes, or if a Duelist could use a ring of force shield and keep the Canny Defense and Precise Strike abilities.
The only other defensive option I can find to keep Duelists' AC competitive with their more heavily armored companions is to use Bracers of Armor to avoid the Max Dex issue entirely, which is still pretty sub-optimal.
Does anyone have any suggestions or tricks for making Duelists, in damage-dealing or defensive capacity, even or near-even with more commonly effective strategies, like sword 'n board or two-handed weapon styles?
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Don't forget that Fighter 7 also increases the max dex of their armor by 2, so that mithril chain shirt actually has a max dex of +8.
If you're willing to dip into 3.5 material I'm 90% sure that the magic item compendium had an armor enchantment that increased max dex bonus.
Otherwise you're stuck with bracers of armor.
If you can con your DM into it, ask about taking a bracer of shield (shield spell in a bracer, sans magic missile immunity) at bonus squared times 2,000gp. Homebrew item, but should be terrible since it's not like you can use that free hand for anything anyway.
Truthfully though you're probably just better off with bracers of armor and an amulet of natural armor stacked with a ring of protection. The only reason to use the normal armor is to get the bonus equivalents, of which only fortification is really worth it (IMO). I'm pretty sure you can still put the flat-price equivalents on bracers all you want.
+8 Armor, +5 Deflection, +5 Natural, +8 (or more) Dex + 10 base = 36
If the DM allows bracers of shield and you get the +5 mithril chain:
+9 armor, +4 shield, +5 deflection, +5 natural, + 8 dex, +10 base = 41
are you permitted 3rd party material? In the supergenius games product Feats of Battle, there is a feat called web of steel. It provides an armor bonus when wielding a weapon with which you have weapon focus. It is an armor bonus (and thus incompatible with normal armor) but has no max dex so you can use it quite effectively with the duelist ability.
I'm working on a Duelist myself right now and after calculations have decided ther going without armor eventually will be my best option as well. I'm doing a Weapon Specialist Fighter, Shadowdancer ,Duelist with the duelist levels going to 10. I do plan to do the bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor, and ring of protection. I read the canny defense the same way, which is why I will be maxing out my Dex, since with weapon finesse that is a bonus to hit and AC, and leaving the intelligence alone. If you are looking to max out damage, the most obvious choice would be a rapier with improved crit/keen to get the crits rolling. If you want to continue raising your AC, fighting defensively shouldn't be much of an issue to continue hitting (with 3 ranks in acrobatics it's a -2 to hit for a +3 AC), especially if you have someone to flank with. Spring Attack can be a good option too. You also might want to use a Small race for the +1 to hit and AC, since the duelist gives a +1 per Duelist level to damage, so str is much less important.
Given the various threads on monks and rings of force shield, it would seem the ring of force shield is a no go:
An iron band, this simple ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC).
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I'm not currently working on a specific character, just looking into hypothetical competitive builds. I'll take any ideas I can get, though if anybody's got suggestions within the bounds of, say, Core/APG only, or PFS legal only, that's extra helpful, since it's harder to do.
3.5 stuff does give some cool options, including dipping 3 into Swashbuckler and then 3 or 4 into PF Fighter to really max out damage. I'm also a big fan of the "Deadly Defense" feat in Complete Scoundrel since it adds 1d6 damage as a added reward for using Combat Expertise.
I once ran a Tome of Battle Warblade as a fencer type character, using the Diamond Mind school and really pushing Insightful Strike for all it was worth. It worked well.
I love the Wall of Steel feat. I'm moving to make SGG supplements ok to use in my next home game. "Feats of ..." are my favorite 3PP PF supplements so far.
From core PF rules, a cheap thing for any reasonable charisma fighter with skill points to spare is pick up the dangerously curious trait - +1 UMD and UMD is a class skill. Then you can grab a wand of shield, no?
EDIT: That is, if you are using traits.
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From core PF rules, a cheap thing for any reasonable charisma fighter with skill points to spare is pick up the dangerously curious trait - +1 UMD and UMD is a class skill. Then you can grab a wand of shield, no?
EDIT: That is, if you are using traits.
Sweet, I hadn't thought of that. That would go a long way. Thanks.
I'm doing it with a fighter/rogue/duelist (the party needed both a fighter and a rogue), it's working pretty well as my DM let me import Deadly Defence from 3.5. I make a lot of use of Improved Feint to lower a target's AC, and will be investing in Vital Strike a great deal.
I would have used the Free-Hand Fighter if it had been available, but am probably better with the build I have. Bracers of AC seem to be the way I'll go for armour, though, as my combined Int and Dex bonuses already stack to +7, so when I get to high level it'll be worthwhile to switch from a chain shirt.
Regular Fighter is better than the archetypes if you still want to wear armor. The basic Armor Training gives you more room for your Dex/Int bonus, and lowers armor check penalties; the dodge bonus from the Free Hand archetype is inferior unless you're sure you're doing the bracers of armor thing. (EDIT: Although, now that I think about it, if you're going for a mithral chain shirt anyway, this hardly makes a difference).
At any rate, I don't like the Free Hand's "Singleton" ability instead of weapon training; you can't hold a torch or anything else in your off hand and still get the damage bonus. It's unnecessarily specialized.
If you have a spare feat for an Exotic Weapon Proficiency, ask your GM if you can use a Broadblade Shortsword from Complete Adventurer. It's basically a short sword that gives you a +2 dodge bonus to AC if you fight defensively or shift at least 2 points of Combat Expertise. The higher crit rate from a rapier might be more interesting, though, considering the delicious bonus you'll be racking up from Precise Strike. Depends if you want offense or defense.
EDIT: Since you're getting Dodge and Mobility anyway, working towards Whirlwind Attack might not be a terrible idea (and Lunge, if you can cram it in). Against multiple enemies, that could be a good way to get in extra attacks. I love that combination. Lunge + Spring Attack is great, too.
using 3.5 material
half-elf
swashbuckler/duskblade/bladesinger/duelist
The build I looked at prior to the APG for duelist was a monk/duelist. With the advent of the weapon adept option for monk, this makes this combination even more attractive.
What you get for the 8 levels of monk needed to get +6 BAB to get into duelist:
- weapon focus and specialization from weapon adept
- perfect strike from weapon adept
- flurry of blows with siangham (+6/+6/+1/+1)
- wisdom bonus +2 to AC while wearing no armor or shield
- 3 bonus feats, some which could be used for the duelist requirements.
- good monk saves, but no evasion - loss from weapon adept
- ki pool used to gain an extra attack or +4 AC
- faster movement speedThe main con is that you are forced to use a siangham, which is probably worse than any weapon you could pick from any other build.
You can use the Cestus instead of the Siangham. If you use Empty hand monk then you can use just about anything that is able to be used one handed.
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A different build:
Rogue 2/ Barbarian 4/ Shadowdancer 4/ Duelist 10.
You lose 2 BAB but you gain in the saves and skills. Plus you have many more choices for extra effects.
With a cestus, does a monk do regular monk unarmed damage (1d6 at first level)? That's how I read it, but wanted to know if others felt the same.
No. The only weapon that does that is the brass knuckles. If you read their entry it specifically (and explicitedly) states that it gains the increased damage from the monk unarmed strike ability. All other such weapons just do the "weapon damage" for that weapon. This is also supported by several posts by JB on these forums.
With a cestus, does a monk do regular monk unarmed damage (1d6 at first level)? That's how I read it, but wanted to know if others felt the same.
No.
They deal 1d4 damage, but are able to use FoB with it, as well as dealing bludgeoning or piercing damage.
You can use the Cestus instead of the Siangham. If you use Empty hand monk then you can use just about anything that is able to be used one handed.
You must use one of the following weapons to make the attack: kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, and siangham.
He is correct in usage of only the siangham for the monk weapon master/duelist with FOB concept.
You appear to be correct about cestus damage though :P
You can use the Cestus instead of the Siangham. If you use Empty hand monk then you can use just about anything that is able to be used one handed.You must use one of the following weapons to make the attack: kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, and siangham.He is correct in usage of only the siangham for the monk weapon master/duelist with FOB concept.
You appear to be correct about cestus damage though :P
He hadn't asked about the perfect strike feat yet though.
Ah, I guess I was reading into it. I guess my take is if you are going to take a variant class you would build around that classes core abilities.
He hadn't asked about the perfect strike feat yet though.
Using Pathfinder only material, the best route would be to go human or elf. For a 15 pt buy build, the base stats should look something like this (I know having low charisma as a duelist sucks, but this is optimization!):
STR 14
DEX 17
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 7
If the advanced player's guide is allowed, choose the Weapon Master archetype for the fighter and take 7 levels, to get the second bonus Weapon Training provides. For feats, be sure to pick up the ones needed for the duelist, as well as Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Specialization (Rapier), Improved Critical (Rapier) and Power Attack. As for items, try to get a belt of dexterity, and possibly a cheap hat of intelligence, as well as a good rapier.
Put all your levels into duelist to get precise strike as powerful as possible.
It's not going to be an exceedingly powerful build damage-wise, but if you play to its strengths, you should be able to contribute. Use your mobility to your advantage.
Full Monk + Temple Sword = winner
can't beat 9 attacks with a single weapon ;)
Full Monk + Temple Sword = winner
can't beat 9 attacks with a single weapon ;)
How's that again?
I'm counting 8 with Haste.
Full Monk + Temple Sword = winner
can't beat 9 attacks with a single weapon ;)
How's that again?
I'm counting 8 with Haste.
that would be using a ki point for an extra attack at your full BAB
7 base 1 haste 1 ki = 9
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Full Monk + Temple Sword = winner
can't beat 9 attacks with a single weapon ;)
How's that again?
I'm counting 8 with Haste.
that would be using a ki point for an extra attack at your full BAB
7 base 1 haste 1 ki = 9
Many categorize the ki point as a "similar effect" under haste's effects meaning they don't stack. It's a grey area, though. I've allowed it to stack in the past and it hasn't been a problem.
I am a big fan of Rogue8/Duelist10 then close out with the last two rogue levels.
If you are looking for one-on-one work this is not the strongest, but bad guys are gunna know pretty dang quick that the duelist is behind them in a brawl ;)
The biggest problem he/she is gunna run into is AC. Oh, I know: Bracers! but at what cost? for a set of Full Plate +1 I am paying 2500; for Bracers AC8 I am paying 64k. *sigh* nature of the beast I suppose. (2500/10=250gold per point of AC; which balances very well with the 8k gold per point on the Bracers... :p )
Why do I like it, though? Skills. It makes a flexible *in play* class, and it 'fits'. I have a very hard time seeing a Monk (hands together with a bow, "No disrespect Dojo-san!") as a free-wheeling swashbuckler type. Skills, Sneak Attack Damage, Rogue Talents, Evasion.
What are it's weaknesses? A somewhat lower BAB; 2 points at 8th, and 3 lower at 20th. But let's face it: AC Plateaus while BAB does not. That is to say, there is a point in every adventuring career where the attacker says, "Anything but a one!" Poor saves except for REF and that is pretty dang solid! Mediocre AC unless you have stupendous wealth! and even then you are a solid step behind pure/dedicated AC Tanks.
And of course with the APG, either Acrobat or Swashbuckler would help this build out a lot ;)
GNOME