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we're transfering characters from 3.5 to Pathfinder in our old Age of Worms campaign.
Most of them claim to have had a custom made Amulet of Shield.
in my opinion it gives them a bit more edge than I am comfortable with but I want to be sure its not too powerful in case I do allow it..
so, if someone wanted to craft such an item (be it amulet or simply a brooch with the spell Shield on it) how much would it cost and would it loose properties once 101 hp of magic missle damage is done or not?
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A ring of force shield grants half the bonus of a Shield spell, and doesn't absorb magic missiles. It is clearly inferior to a continuous Shield effect, but it costs 8,500.
Bracers of armor and amulets of natural armor grant a +4 AC bonus for 16,000. Each.
Brooch of shielding does the magic missile thing for 1,500. It has a limit, though that limit is not usually ever reached.
Assumptions made: I'm assuming (though you haven't stated it) that the amulets grant a +4 shield bonus and counter all magic missiles as the shield spell, only a constant effect.
Looking at all these, I would tell the group that I do not like the idea of custom-made shield amulets. I would tell them that they are welcome to trade in their amulets for other gear, which I would probably select for them. For those who want to hold onto their amulets, I'd tell them that it counts for 16,000 (if I'm being very generous) to 20,000 (if I'm not) gp of their wealth for such a powerful effect.
I would not make such a thing lose all properties after absorbing a set amount of magic missiles. Mostly because I like reducing paperwork.
By RAW, a continuous-use item with a level 1 spell and caster level of 1 in which the spell lasts 1 minute/level normally would somehow only cost 4,000 gp. Which is clearly bunk compared to the above items. Granted, I think the bracers of armor are overpriced, but still, this is obviously a singularity where the magic-item creation system breaks down. I'd force the item to be made at CL 5, which brings us up to 20,000 gp.
this is obviously a singularity where the magic-item creation system breaks down.
Everything you posted is spot on, except for this. The magic item creation system very specifically states that before using the charts to determine pricing, the creator must first compare the item's effect to existing items. Determining cost by using the charts is the second step. The system only "breaks down" if the first step is skipped.
@OP: A continuous effect shield item, as Lyrax stated, has an absolute minimum cost of 16,000 gp. This is because other items that provide an AC bonus follow the "bonus squared times a thousand" formula. There is no way around this. Whatever value you place on being immune to magic missiles would be added to this.
Alternatively, you could allow them to exchange the existing item for one that granted a number of uses of the shield spell. This would be a command word activated item (standard action), CL 1 (one minute duration), 360gp per charge per day.
Final note: There is a reason that all the players say they have a "continuous effect shield spell item" for 2K gold. The reason is that the item is way overpowered for the cost.
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I made "Bracers of Shield" available in my campaigns at bonus squared times 1500gp. This means that the +4 version costs 24k. It does not possess the magic missile resistance.
I upped the price because it was a no-brainer for two-handed fighters, and wanted to make sure that the shield fighters actually had measurably more AC at any given level. The price is about right such that even if the shield fighter makes no feat investment he'll still pay only about a grand and change more to get a +7 shield bonus (or much less for a +6) versus the bracer's +4, and those who really focus in shields can get up to a +11 (+5 tower shield and both focus feats).
My GM once allowed my crafting wizard to make a custom continuous item of shield (wrist slot) for 4000 gp.
He later regretted it because it made my wizard's AC so much higher.
Then I regretted it because it antagonized my GM and caused some bad blood and trust issues between us that we're still working out.
A continuous item of shield is just a ludicrously better value than standard AC boosting items. Preserve your GM-player relationship. Don't allow this custom item unless you're absolutely sure all the players and the GM are totally okay with the consequences this will have on your game.
Also, the same argument applies for continuous items of protection from evil, mage armor, and expeditious retreat.
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...The magic item creation system very specifically states that before using the charts to determine pricing, the creator must first compare the item's effect to existing items. Determining cost by using the charts is the second step. The system only "breaks down" if the first step is skipped.
Well, okay. You are right. But the math definitely does funny things here, and I wanted to point that out.
A ring of force shield grants half the bonus of a Shield spell, and doesn't absorb magic missiles. It is clearly inferior to a continuous Shield effect, but it costs 8,500.
Bracers of armor and amulets of natural armor grant a +4 AC bonus for 16,000. Each.
I would add that an amulet of Shield would be similar to a +2 Animated Ghost Touch large steel shield, which is 49,000gp. Except that the amulet is in effect for more than 4 rounds at a time and can't be sundered. That would probably be worth another +1 to make it a +8 item with a base price of 64,000. But it does use up the amulet slot, so 49,000gp is probably fair.
I would add that an amulet of Shield would be similar to a +2 Animated Ghost Touch large steel shield, which is 49,000gp. Except that the amulet is in effect for more than 4 rounds at a time and can't be sundered. That would probably be worth another +1 to make it a +8 item with a base price of 64,000. But it does use up the amulet slot, so 49,000gp is probably fair.
Not sure I'd go that far. But it is important to note that some spells make sense as continuous items and some don't. Endure Elements? No problem. True Srike? Not so much. When in doubt, allow players to purchase items with the spell in question, but with lots of charges. That way, the action economy tends to be a mitigating factor in regards to abuse.
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A ring of force shield grants half the bonus of a Shield spell, and doesn't absorb magic missiles. It is clearly inferior to a continuous Shield effect, but it costs 8,500.
Bracers of armor and amulets of natural armor grant a +4 AC bonus for 16,000. Each.
I would add that an amulet of Shield would be similar to a +2 Animated Ghost Touch large steel shield, which is 49,000gp. Except that the amulet is in effect for more than 4 rounds at a time and can't be sundered. That would probably be worth another +1 to make it a +8 item with a base price of 64,000. But it does use up the amulet slot, so 49,000gp is probably fair.
I'd say it's more like a +0 Animated Ghost Touch tower shield, which is a +5 equivalent for 25k. Note that there is the disadvantage that you cannot use your shield feats with a shield spell (like shield focus) and can't add extra properties (like fortification).
My version doesn't allow extra properties and it's +4 AC version is 24k, pretty close to the 25k shield above (I'm aware it isn't valid because it has no +1 bonus ahead of time, but then it'd be 5 AC and the rule is rather arbitrary in the first place). Also note that it occupies the same slot as the bracers of armor, making it less useful to those who don't wear armor (not quite useless since you can just increase the price to add it to the armor bracers).
At worst I'd put it at bonus squared times 2,000gp for a total cost of 32k.
After thinking about it a bit longer...
Amulet of Natural Armor is 32,000gp for +4 and 50,000gp for +5.
Which would a PC rather own, the Amulet of Natural Armor +5 or the Amulet of Shield for 49,000gp?
Amulet of Shield is the obvious answer.
First, you lose 1 AC, but gain 4 AC against incorporeal attacks which are hard to defend against.
Second, a Druid, Ranger, and some clerics, give the PC the natural armor from the 2nd level Barkskin spell (+5 at caster level 12). But it's difficult to put a Shield spell on someone else (Ring Spell Storing probably the best option).
So I'm back to 64,000gp as the base price.
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After thinking about it a bit longer...
Amulet of Natural Armor is 32,000gp for +4 and 50,000gp for +5.
Which would a PC rather own, the Amulet of Natural Armor +5 or the Amulet of Shield for 49,000gp?
Amulet of Shield is the obvious answer.
First, you lose 1 AC, but gain 4 AC against incorporeal attacks which are hard to defend against.
Second, a Druid, Ranger, and some clerics, give the PC the natural armor from the 2nd level Barkskin spell (+5 at caster level 12). But it's difficult to put a Shield spell on someone else (Ring Spell Storing probably the best option).
So I'm back to 64,000gp as the base price.
Incorporeal creatures are not common enough to warrant increasing the items price by such a large quantity. I probably only see one every several dozen encounters.
Note that even a divine bonus is only bonus squared times 2,000gp for 32k, and it works even if reality itself is unraveling at you. No need to make shield cost more.
I'd say it's more like a +0 Animated Ghost Touch tower shield, which is a +5 equivalent for 25k.
Tower shields can't be animated.
I'd say it's more like a +0 Animated Ghost Touch tower shield, which is a +5 equivalent for 25k.Tower shields can't be animated.Again, a rather arbitrary rule.
I suppose a better argument is my "divine"/luck/sacred/profane cost note above.
Is there a core or APG item with divine/luck/sacred/profane AC bonus? My pdf searches aren't finding anything.
Unfortunately, your "divine"/luck/sacred/profane cost argument just shows a problem with blindly following the item creation guidelines. It's a no-brainer for PCs to create items with these types of bonuses first since deflection/natural armor/resistance bonuses are easy to apply via spells or add as permanent items later.
Wow... just thinking about my last PC (buffing, item creation cleric) giving all party members +20 to all saves from resistance/insight/luck/sacred items if the DM had allowed creation of non-standard items. Brutal. Hmm... wonder if there are other bonus types to stack.
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I'd say it's more like a +0 Animated Ghost Touch tower shield, which is a +5 equivalent for 25k.Tower shields can't be animated.Again, a rather arbitrary rule.
I suppose a better argument is my "divine"/luck/sacred/profane cost note above.Is there a core or APG item with divine/luck/sacred/profane AC bonus? My pdf searches aren't finding anything.
Unfortunately, your "divine"/luck/sacred/profane cost argument just shows a problem with blindly following the item creation guidelines. It's a no-brainer for PCs to create items with these types of bonuses first since deflection/natural armor/resistance bonuses are easy to apply via spells or add as permanent items later.
Wow... just thinking about my last PC (buffing, item creation cleric) giving all party members +15 to all saves from resistance/luck/sacred items. Brutal.
Luckstone is one that comes to mind. The inquisitor can use class abilities to gain either a sacred or profane bonus on various things (including AC IIRC).
Basically: Unlike luck, divine, sacred or profane the shield bonus is one easily acquired through other means, much like how armor is. A caster could wear +5 mithril brigandine (aka studded leather) and use a +5 mithril light shield for +8 armor AC and +6 shield AC and still have a free hand for casting, with no spell failure. Turning them into other items is merely convenience.
Basically, there are only two types of characters the shield bonus item truly benefits: Two-weapon specialists, and two-handed specialists. These guys are already normally low on AC, so giving them another source of (at best) 4 AC is hardly game-breaking.
Well, I guess it also benefits a gish, but they have hard enough time finding a good balance in PF as it is.
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@Stabbity Doom:
There's a reason that there are very few items that have unusual bonus types; and virtually of these are at +1.
If you study any number of Adventure Paths, it is quite evident that the assumption is that characters do not gain an item (or set of items) that grant +x deflection/divine/sacred/luck/insight/profane/circumstance/competence/moral e bonus to attack, damage, saves and AC. Allowing spurious and unlimited access to these bonuses tears apart the balance considerations of the game world.
This is fine if the GM takes the time to similarly equip opponents, but playing by the book (meaning adventure path) will make the challenges very underpowered and this is definitely not the intention.
In my estimation, the crafting rules for unusual boni are given to allow for special custom items that the GM makes as rewards or challenges; rather than a ticket to the PCs to go on a munchkin spree.
Basically, there are only two types of characters the shield bonus item truly benefits: Two-weapon specialists, and two-handed specialists. These guys are already normally low on AC, so giving them another source of (at best) 4 AC is hardly game-breaking.
Well, I guess it also benefits a gish, but they have hard enough time finding a good balance in PF as it is.
4 AC is highly significant. Feats that grant such bonuses come in the +1 variety for a reason.
I think there are enough options for two-weapon/two-handed-weapon fighters to get shield AC; including animated shields, spell-storing items and feats. There should not be an obvious "go to" solution like an amulet of shield just because. Any non-core item that most characters purchase without having to put a second thought into it, is suspect and should be re-evaluated.
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@Stabbity Doom:
There's a reason that there are very few items that have unusual bonus types; and virtually of these are at +1.
If you study any number of Adventure Paths, it is quite evident that the assumption is that characters do not gain an item (or set of items) that grant +x deflection/divine/sacred/luck/insight/profane/circumstance/competence/moral e bonus to attack, damage, saves and AC. Allowing spurious and unlimited access to these bonuses tears apart the balance considerations of the game world.
This is fine if the GM takes the time to similarly equip opponents, but playing by the book (meaning adventure path) will make the challenges very underpowered and this is definitely not the intention.
In my estimation, the crafting rules for unusual boni are given to allow for special custom items that the GM makes as rewards or challenges; rather than a ticket to the PCs to go on a munchkin spree.
Basically, there are only two types of characters the shield bonus item truly benefits: Two-weapon specialists, and two-handed specialists. These guys are already normally low on AC, so giving them another source of (at best) 4 AC is hardly game-breaking.
Well, I guess it also benefits a gish, but they have hard enough time finding a good balance in PF as it is.4 AC is highly significant. Feats that grant such bonuses come in the +1 variety for a reason.
I think there are enough options for two-weapon/two-handed-weapon fighters to get shield AC; including animated shields, spell-storing items and feats. There should not be an obvious "go to" solution like an amulet of shield just because. Any non-core item that most characters purchase without having to put a second thought into it, is suspect and should be re-evaluated.
Okay, first off I'm talking about a bracer of shielding (as per how I suggested pricing), not an amulet. This was deliberate to make it conflict with bracers of armor.
To continue, this is an AC type quite easily gained through mundane means that doesn't overlap with those means. Even casters can easily (at 5th+) buy a +1/2 mithril light shield and get a good portion of that AC, eventually get +6 when fully enchanted. They only need one free hand, after all. The +3 mithril light shield costs ~9,200g. The typical non-slot multiplier is double, for 18,400g. This is significantly less than the 24k I suggested pricing an equivalent bracer of shield at, and it doesn't gain any form of magic missile resistance. I also noted that 32k was probably a fair price. But 64k?! Who in their right mind would pay that? That's more expensive than a +5 mithril light shield of light fortification, which both grants 2 more AC and protects against criticals.
In short, it doesn't add a *new* AC type to the typical list, it just gives a different access route. This is in direct contrast to those aformentioned bonus types which are typically unavailable.
PS: I've allowed bracers of shielding for a few months now, and the only character that took them was a DMPC who had a +2 version. Everyone else was either playing a caster and opted for armor, or was using a shield anyway, or had more important items to get first.
It took me a while to find this in the archives, but I posted a breakdown in this thread in 2008.
Because this is a continuous AC granting effect, the base price is calculated as AC bonus (other): Bonus squared x 2,500 gp = 16 x 2,500 gp = 40,000 gp. Unlimited magic missile negation would cost IMO 5,000 gp (a brooch of shielding costs 1,500 gp and negates 101 points of damage, effectively around 30 charges at 1d4+1 points per charge; Charged (50 charges) costs "1/2 unlimited use base price").
So, for a continuous-effect magic item that duplicates the shield spell (+4 shield bonus to AC, negates magic missiles), the market price would be 40,000 gp + (5,000 gp x 1.5) = 47,500 gp.
The force shield ring gains a slight break (8,500 gp instead of 10,000 gp), because it requires the use of a hand, which prevents its use when fighting with a two-handed weapon or with a double weapon/weapon in each hand.
It may be better to create an item that can create a shield spell effect a number of times each day (at 1 min/level duration, even at CL 1 it will last through most single encounters). That would only have a base price of Command word (spell level x caster level x 1,800 gp = 1 x 1 x 1,800 gp = 1,800 gp) modified by Charges per day (divide by (5 divided by the number of charges per day)). So, it would have a market price of 1,800 gp / (5 / # charges per day) = 1,800 gp x # charges per day / 5 = 360 gp x # charges per day.
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I wouldn't use the ring of force shield as a comparison as it takes both a ring and hand slot and has the same effect as a +1 ghost touch light mithril shield, which is a little over half the price (5009 versus 8500) and doesn't take a ring slot, and can also be upgraded. IMO this makes the ring a horrid item that I've never seen taken.
The only advantages it has is that it's weightless (versus 3 pounds) and extremely difficult to sunder, which is a rare occasion anyhow.
I still wouldn't put the price above bonus squared times 2,000gp, and personally will be leaving at *1500gp for my games. Reasoning being that it's less useful than typical "Other" category ACs (which are applied to everything as opposed to just flat-footed), but slightly more useful than Armor to AC (since a free hand is quite useful).
The logic on the immunity to magic missile price seems sound, though.