james maissen wrote:
I guess I was focused on the synergy that you mentioned.
Also I was seeing many of those abilities as being redundant. The last is worthwhile I'll admit, but its a big cost for it as well.
Again I'm seeing a PC here that's likely trying to scout for his party and trapfinding is very useful there.
Without it he'll be going at a very slow pace searching for traps and then have no means to deal with them when he finds them.
With it he'll be going at full speed automatically finding them and then removing them without danger.
That's a big bonus and seems to fit with the character's everyday needs.
While there is a trade-off, I don't see it as a huge one.
-James
Yeah, I can see all those things, since you're envisioning this guy as a scout. And certainly, if you want to build all those concepts into the character, you can accomplish that by taking the rogue levels. And besides, your particular build doesn't invalidate my point about the increased damage dice, since you get that even if you rogue out the last few levels.
I mostly develop characters up to about level 12 for PFS. I lose interest in optimization challenges when characters are just wishing things into existence. One of the main reasons I like the zen archer is because it is effective at every single level all the way up to 12th (and maybe beyond as well, but who cares).
In PFS at least, I haven't seen any traps at all. That's probably the main reason I was subconsciously attacking your build preference. I really started to appreciate the ZA once I realized the content of my 6 point list. That's when it "clicked" that even straight monk is pretty darned good.
Rubia
Fighter: Attacks: 24/24/24/19
Monk Attacks 19/19/14/14/9
Let's figure target AC is 26
Fighter hits 90/90/90/65%, or 335% of base dmg.
Monk hits 70/70/45/45/20%, or 255% of base dmg.
YOu can probably see where this is heading.
Monk dmg off your original post is 3d8 +3d6+13. Avg dmg is 36 a shot.
Fighter dmg is 1d8 + 2d6 + 17, or 28.5 a shot.
2.55 x 36 is 91.8 dmg.
3.35 x 28,5 is 95.475. Using your original numbers, the fighter is going to win because he's going to hit more.
Every point of AC higher then 26, the monk loses 9 dmg, and the fighter loses 5.5. The fighter will keep pulling ahead. At an AC of less then 24, the monk's greater base dmg would give him a slight edge...in other words, he's better at clearing out mooks, and letting the fighter shoot the boss.
If the fighter plys Power Attack for bows, he'll pick up +6 dmg/arrow for -2 th. He'll be at 295% of 34.5 a shot, or 101.75 avg dmg. (going from memory, it's still -1/+3, right?)
Note that the monk loses -25 of his total dmg % with every -1 to hit, while the fighter loses -20. This is the 'flurry of misses' that monks are famous for.
If the Fighter is using Ranged Power Attack (using the numbers of your original example), then the monk is going to do better only at target AC's of 20 or less.
So, the FIghters going to win against anything with average AC for the level or higher.
===
The size progression from 2d6 is 3d6, 4d6, 6d6. Basically, it doubles every two levels. the 2d8/3d6 is the place where size changes intersect poorly, but both hit -24 and should become the same progression there, not pursue seperate ones.
YMMV, of course.
==Aelryinth
Rubia wrote: thepuregamer wrote: I would say that the first sentence makes it a blanket buff to natural attacks as opposed to one that is activated each time you swing with a natural weapon.
** spoiler omitted **
INA also uses the term natural attack. The term doesn't necessarily imply an action.
It has been specifically FAQed that INA does not work with unarmed strike damage. Here's the link:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Improved-Natural-Attack-f eat-7-25-1
I never said that INA worked with unarmed strike. I said that INA referred to Natural attack as a term not an action.
Rubia wrote:
Nevertheless, let's read the second sentence of Strong Jaw together:
"Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is. . . "
It's clear that the additional size modifier only applies when the creature makes a natural attack. The bow attack with the zen archer is not a natural attack. It is a weapon attack that may substitute unarmed strike damage dice in its place. Therefore, it doesn't trigger Strong Jaw.
You are right that the bonus is a constant buff to natural attacks, but that's all it is -- a buff when you make natural attacks.
See one second, you call it a constant buff to natural attacks and then the next you state that it is situational. IE, your natural attack(a term used to describe natural weapons in their many forms) damage is only increased during the attack action or full round attack action. My reading of the first sentence implies that it is a constant improvement to natural weapons and thus unarmed strike as well. Either it is constant or a triggered event.
Now I am not saying it is cut and dry in favor of working with zen archer. I suspect that this is not certain enough to be entering a dpr thread, so it can probably be put to the side for the purposes of this discussion. But I still believe that the 1st sentence of the description is contrary to the second and that the wording of the second sentence is just a consequence of the fact that for 99.9% of the time, weapon damage is only checked during a successful attack. As opposed to actual intent to limit the ability.
thepuregamer wrote: Rubia wrote:
It has been specifically FAQed that INA does not work with unarmed strike damage. Here's the link:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Improved-Natural-Attack-f eat-7-25-1
I never said that INA worked with unarmed strike. I said that INA referred to Natural attack as a term not an action.
Sure. That's why it wasn't specifically part of the post where I was saying Strong Jaw doesn't work. However, the reason I mentioned this is because the wording of INA changes the damage for the natural attack chosen, regardless of whether that particular natural attack is used or not. This is the wording that you would like to have for Strong Jaw to support your interpretation that it works for ZAs. Strong Jaw's wording is similar, but not the same.
Rubia wrote:
Nevertheless, let's read the second sentence of Strong Jaw together:
"Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is. . . "
It's clear that the additional size modifier only applies when the creature makes a natural attack. The bow attack with the zen archer is not a natural attack. It is a weapon attack that may substitute unarmed strike damage dice in its place. Therefore, it doesn't trigger Strong Jaw.
You are right that the bonus is a constant buff to natural attacks, but that's all it is -- a buff when you make natural attacks.
thepuregamer wrote:
See one second, you call it a constant buff to natural attacks and then the next you state that it is situational. IE, your natural attack(a term used to describe natural weapons in their many forms) damage is only increased during the attack action or full round attack action. My reading of the first sentence implies that it is a constant improvement to natural weapons and thus unarmed strike as well. Either it is constant or a triggered event.
I'm being consistent. The spell provides a constant buff to natural attacks, but that buff only applies when you actually make a natural attack. That means that regardless of when or how you make a natural attack, the buff applies. So full-round, single attack, whatever, but you must be making a natural attack.
It's exactly like a buff where you get "+1 caster level when casting fire spells". The buff is always there. It always applies, but it only provides the bonus when you actually cast a fire spell. If you dance naked in a tree, you don't get an extra caster level. You only get it when you cast a fire spell.
I am saying it is cut-and-dry that it does not work when you make ranged attacks with your bow. It does work if you are using stunning fist in melee with an attack from your head, arms, etc. It works if you have a scorpion's tail grafted to your face and you casted strong jaw on that. It does not work with a bow attack, because a bow attack is not a natural attack. Period.
In essence, you've enhanced the power of that natural attack, but you must use the natural attack to make it work. Match that wording to that from the zen archer:
Question: How many damage dice do you get to use when you apply this ability and you've cast Strong Jaw on your face?
Answer: The damage dice of your original size.
Question: But why?
Answer: Because the "two sizes larger" damage dice only applies when you make a natural attack with your face, but you're not doing that.
Compare it with gravity bow. Does that spell increase the damage dice of shuriken that you throw? Nope. Does it increase the damage dice that your conveniently-placed gnome friend will do when you fling him or her at the lich in front of you? Nope. Only arrows fired from bows.
I don't see how it could be *more* cut-and-dry. It's unfortunate that we can't expand the strength of the spell by inferring intent that differs from stated text.
A good rule of thumb: if RAW limits an ability, that should stick, since designers are paid to word things carefully to limit abilities. In other words, it was probably intentional. If RAW has a loophole in it, it's worth exploring whether that was intended as a powerful combo or overlooked. Most RAI arguments are based on abuse of the system anyway.
Rubia
Perhaps I missed something (and lord knows I hope I have), but under the description for flurry of blows:
"For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. "
So, why wouldn't the effective BAB be the same between a fighter and a zen archer monk?
On a flip side question, how as a GM do you counter a zen archer who is throwing out this kind of damage? The 6th level archer in my group is throwing out 3-4 arrows a round, doing d8+11+d6 acid each. And +10/+10/+5 per arrow
Anything near appropriate CR for the group is annihilated prior to anyone else in the group even engaging.
Mike Walberg wrote: Perhaps I missed something (and lord knows I hope I have), but under the description for flurry of blows:
"For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. "
So, why wouldn't the effective BAB be the same between a fighter and a zen archer monk?
On a flip side question, how as a GM do you counter a zen archer who is throwing out this kind of damage? The 6th level archer in my group is throwing out 3-4 arrows a round, doing d8+11+d6 acid each. And +10/+10/+5 per arrow
Anything near appropriate CR for the group is annihilated prior to anyone else in the group even engaging.
DR is your friend against archers.
Also, does manyshot even workwith crossbows? I've had discussions with many a player and GM and we've never played that manyshot works with crossbows because it specifically calls out "Bows" not "whenever you fire an arrow"
Yes, the BAB is effectively the same, although the Zen Archer is trading off a -2 penalty for an extra attack.
The BAB is not the same for purposes besides the number of attacks and their attack bonus,
i.e. you will qualify for Vital Strike and BAB-pre-req Feats at a later character level.
Zen Archer IS really strong at their schtick...
Basically, I would say that you need to know what messes with archers in general, and make sure you use that.
That includes if they can`t Full Attack, so Slow or Conditions dropping them to a Standard Action are good counters.
Miss Chance and Line of Sight is a big one, and can`t easily be countered (Melee can use Blind-Fight, Ranged not so much).
Even if a Standard Action to Cast Darkness is countered by another Standard Action, that messes with the Full Attack Archer`s effectiveness. And more complex terrain, or staging of encounters thru multiple rooms/passages without continuous Line of Sight, will require Maneuvering which cuts into Full Attacks.
Anything with DR that isn`t bypassed is relatively stronger vs. Ranged (and 2WF) than Melee (2Handed).
Matt Stich wrote: DR is your friend against archers. Actually DR will stop returning your calls now that archers can get Clustered Shots.
i only want to point out one thing. flurry with unarmed damage,with a potion of enlarge person and a scroll/potion of gravity bow. that combo will can out damage a fighter. i think it would be 6d8 per attack at a full bab, that would be 8 attacks at 6d8+ all the other crazyness of damage from magic, feats, composite, and what not.
average damage IF all attacks hit would be 48d8+... holy crap i dont want to get the fine tune damage... basically would be a s+*& ton of damage lol
Quandary wrote: Yes, the BAB is effectively the same, although the Zen Archer is trading off a -2 penalty for an extra attack.
The BAB is not the same for purposes besides the number of attacks and their attack bonus,
i.e. you will qualify for Vital Strike and BAB-pre-req Feats at a later character level.
Zen Archer IS really strong at their schtick...
Basically, I would say that you need to know what messes with archers in general, and make sure you use that.
That includes if they can`t Full Attack, so Slow or Conditions dropping them to a Standard Action are good counters.
Miss Chance and Line of Sight is a big one, and can`t easily be countered (Melee can use Blind-Fight, Ranged not so much).
Even if a Standard Action to Cast Darkness is countered by another Standard Action, that messes with the Full Attack Archer`s effectiveness. And more complex terrain, or staging of encounters thru multiple rooms/passages without continuous Line of Sight, will require Maneuvering which cuts into Full Attacks.
Anything with DR that isn`t bypassed is relatively stronger vs. Ranged (and 2WF) than Melee (2Handed).
Well to compensate my Zen archer has Many shot and Vital strike to take care of not being able to full attack, I dont worry about miss chance because Improved Precise Strike (can take at level 6) removes miss chance for all but total cover (and being elf I have the elven feat allowing me to reroll miss chance). and again Dmg Reduction is no problem with clustered shot feat, but even if I only make a standard attack (using Gravity Bow and Enlarge person My arrows deal 4d6dmg (d10arrors with gravity bow become 2d8-enlarge makes 4d6 and then I use vital strike that makes it 8d6dmg and if I many shot, well I with my strength bow should not have an issue with DR>
Forgive me if I am misspeaking here, I did not comb over all of these builds being thrown about, but I keep seeing enlarge person popping up. I'm not sure whether you all are using enlarge for the extra +2 to strength or the increased weapon damage. If it is the latter, I wanted to point out:
"Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage."
Tharg The Pirate King wrote:
Well to compensate my Zen archer has Many shot and Vital strike to take care of not being able to full attack, I dont worry about miss chance because Improved Precise Strike (can take at level 6) removes miss chance for all but total cover (and being elf I have the elven feat allowing me to reroll miss chance). and again Dmg Reduction is no problem with clustered shot feat, but even if I only make a standard attack (using Gravity Bow and Enlarge person My arrows deal 4d6dmg (d10arrors with gravity bow become 2d8-enlarge makes 4d6 and then I use vital strike that makes it 8d6dmg and if I many shot, well I with my strength bow should not have an issue with DR>
Many shot can't be used in a flurry for zen archer.
Cibulan wrote: Forgive me if I am misspeaking here, I did not comb over all of these builds being thrown about, but I keep seeing enlarge person popping up. I'm not sure whether you all are using enlarge for the extra +2 to strength or the increased weapon damage. If it is the latter, I wanted to point out:
"Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage."
But it increases unarmed strike damage and there's a ki power that makes arrows do unarmed strike damage.
Atarlost wrote: Cibulan wrote: Forgive me if I am misspeaking here, I did not comb over all of these builds being thrown about, but I keep seeing enlarge person popping up. I'm not sure whether you all are using enlarge for the extra +2 to strength or the increased weapon damage. If it is the latter, I wanted to point out:
"Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage."
But it increases unarmed strike damage and there's a ki power that makes arrows do unarmed strike damage. I understand now. Like I said, I didn't read closely to see how enlarge person was being applied. Apologies.
Matt Stich wrote: Tharg The Pirate King wrote:
Well to compensate my Zen archer has Many shot and Vital strike to take care of not being able to full attack, I dont worry about miss chance because Improved Precise Strike (can take at level 6) removes miss chance for all but total cover (and being elf I have the elven feat allowing me to reroll miss chance). and again Dmg Reduction is no problem with clustered shot feat, but even if I only make a standard attack (using Gravity Bow and Enlarge person My arrows deal 4d6dmg (d10arrors with gravity bow become 2d8-enlarge makes 4d6 and then I use vital strike that makes it 8d6dmg and if I many shot, well I with my strength bow should not have an issue with DR>
Many shot can't be used in a flurry for zen archer. True my argument is that flurry is a full round action, manyshot is not and can be used in those situations where a full round action can not be performed. Having Many shot and using it with combine feats like Vital strike and the Perfect Strike feat allow you to create a really good attack.
The honest reality is a fighter does somewhat more damage and probably has better AC, but honestly with the better saves and some handy side tricks the zen archer is probably the better / more survivable character. I probably like rangers over both though, versatility, same AC as the fighter, and their spells get really good (instant enemy makes them outdamage either of the other two).
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