Did i crunch the numbers correctly ?
Also note that i gave Fighter with crossbow 2 crits on average while i gave those with bow 1 crit on average - 19-20 vs 20.
As for scores, i took scores of one of my players (we started RoTR with 3,5, it would be wrong if i told them to do point buy now half way through adventure). Scores are 18,17,16,14,14,13. Also i used Humans for all of the builds, i just noted levels next to feats to save you time of counting is there right number of them - not a pattern it should be taken in.
Note: PBS - Point Blank Shot; WT - Weapon Training; WF - Weapon Focus;
WotB -Way of the Bow;
Fighter lvl 11 (/w Crossbow)
Str 14
Dex 28 (18 base, +2 race, +2 level +6 ench)
Con 17
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 12
Feats: Point Blank Shot (1 lvl); Deadly Aim (Fgt 1); Rapid Shot (Human); Precise Shot (Fgt 2); Two Weapon fighting (3 lvl); Weapon Focus (crossbow) (Fgt 4); Weapon Spec (crossbow)(lvl 5); Weapon Focus (hand crossbow)(Fgt 6); Weapon Spec (hand crossbow) (lvl 7); Rapid Reload (Fgt 8); Crossbow Mastery (lvl 9); Exotic Weapon Prof. (hand crossbow) (Fgt 10); ITWF (lvl 11);
Equipment(82k): Boots of Speed (12k), Glove of Storing(10k), +1 keen crossbow(8k), +1 keen light crossbow(8k), Belt of Incredible Dexterity +6 (36k), Bracers of Archery Lesser (5k).
Total:79k
Attack : 11 BAB + 9 Dex + 2 WT2 + 1 WF +1 PBS +1 Haste +1 ench. + 1 comp. -2 twf - 2 rapidshot -3 deadly aim. Total:20
Damage : 2 WT2 +1 PBS +2 Weapon Spec +6/+3 Deadly Aim +1 Ench
Attacks: 20/20/20/15 (1d8 +12) and +20/15 (1d4 +9)
Average DMG: 18(base crossbow damage) +48 (bonus damage) + 5 (base light crossbow) + 18 (bonus damage = 89
Average 2 Crit Hits: 66 (2 Crits) + 33 (2 main attacks) +23 (2 off-hand) = 122
Fighter lvl 11 (/w Composite Longbow)
Str 16
Dex 28 (base 18 +2 race +2 lvl +6 ench)
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 12
Feats: Point Blank Shot (lvl 1); Precise Shot (Fgt 1); Rapidshot(Human); Manyshot(Fgt 2); Deadly Aim (lvl 3); Weapon Focus (Longbow)(Fgt 4); Weapon Spec (Longbow)(lvl 5); Point Blank Master(Fgt 6); Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)(lvl 7); Imp Crit (Longbow)(Fgt 8); Toughness (lvl 9);
Improved Precise Shot(Fgt 10); Farshot(lvl 11);
Equipment (82k): Boots of Speed (12k); Belt of Incredible Dex +6 (36k); Gloves of Dueling (15k); Bracers of Archery Lesser (5k); Sash of War Champion (4k); +1 Vicious Composite Longbow (+3 Mighty) (8,6k);
Total: 76.6k
Attack: 11 BAB +4 WT2 +2 GWF +9 Dex +1 PBS +1 Haste +1 comp. -2 Rapidshot -3 Deadly Aim. Total:24
Damage: 4 WT2 +2 WS +3 Str +6 Deadly Aim +1 PBS +1 Ench.
Attacks: 24/24/24/19 (1d8 +2d6 + 17)
Damage: 23 (base weapon) +120 (bonus damage) =143
Average 1 Crit Hits: 114 (crit hit /w Multishot) +86(rest of attacks) = 200
Zen Archer Monk lvl 11 (/w Composite Longbow)
Str 16
Dex 28 (same as above)
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 12
Feats: Point Blank Shot (Mnk 1); Precise Shot (Mnk 2); Dodge (lvl 1); Deadly Aim(lvl 3); Imp Natural Attack (unarmed)(Human); Improved Precise Shot (Mnk 6); Imp Init (lvl 5); Farshot (lvl 7); Imp. Crit (Longbow)(Mnk 10); Toughness (lvl 9); WotB (Weapon Focus (Longbow); WoTB (Weapon Spec (Longbow); 1 free feat;
Equipment: Monk's Robe(13k); Bracers of Archery Lesser (5k); Belt of Incredible Dexterity (36k); +1 Vicious Flame Composite Longbow (+3 mighty) (18,6k)
Total:72,6k
Attacks 9 BAB +9 Dex +1 WF +1PBS +1 Comp +1 Ench -3 Deadly Aim = 19
Damage: 1 PBS +2 WS + 3 Str +6 Deadly Aim +1 Ench =13
Attacks: 19/19/14/14/9 (3d8 +3d6 + 13)
Damage: (4 attacks) 54 (base damage) +94(bonus) =106; (5 attacks) 68 (base damage) +118 (bonus) = 186
Average 1 Crit Hit: (4 attacks) 111 (crit) 41 (base for other 3 attacks) +71 (bonus for other 3 attacks =223; (5 attacks) 223 + 37 = 260
Forgot to calculate extra attack and forgot that extra attack stacks with haste. So i dropped Flaming property of the weapon for Boots of Haste.
Zen Archer Monk lvl 11 (/w Composite Longbow)
Str 16
Dex 28 (same as above)
Int 14
Wis 16 (base 14; +2 ench.)
Cha 12
Ki pool: 8 - meaning monk can do this kind of damage for maximum of 4 rounds, spending 2 per round - 1 extra attack; 1 unarmed damage; I've calculated just max, with potential of last attack not hitting
Feats: Point Blank Shot (Mnk 1); Precise Shot (Mnk 2); Dodge (lvl 1); Deadly Aim(lvl 3); Imp Natural Attack (unarmed)(Human); Improved Precise Shot (Mnk 6); Imp Init (lvl 5); Farshot (lvl 7); Imp. Crit (Longbow)(Mnk 10); Toughness (lvl 9); WotB (Weapon Focus (Longbow); WoTB (Weapon Spec (Longbow); 1 free feat;
Equipment: Boots of Haste (12k) Monk's Robe(13k); Bracers of Archery Lesser (5k); Belt of Incredible Dexterity (36k); +1 Vicious Composite Longbow (+3 mighty) (8,6k); Headband of inspired Wisdom +2 (4k)
Total:78,6k
Attacks 9 BAB +9 Dex +1 WF +1PBS +1 Comp +1 Ench +1 Haste -3 Deadly Aim = 19
Damage: 1 PBS +2 WS + 3 Str +6 Deadly Aim +1 Ench =13
Attacks: 20/20/20/20/15/15/10 (3d8 +2d6 + 13)
Damage: (6 attacks) 81 (base damage) 120(bonus) =201; (7 attacks) 201 (6 attacks) + 34 (7th attack = 235
Average 1 Crit Hit: (6 attacks) 101 (crit) 68 (base for other 5 attacks) 100 (bonus for other 5 attacks) =269; (7 attacks) 269 + 34 = 303
I am confused on a few things here...
Imp. Natural Attack - Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Doesn't seem to allow you to choose unarmed strike, which it looks like you did as your human feat. So you are back down to 2d8 (thanks to monk robe.)
In your attack bonus line, you have a +1 Comp... no idea what that is, the closest guess that I had was your composite bow, but that doesn't infer a benefit to the to-hit, just the damage. and the +1 enchantment bonus covers the +1 from a masterwork weapon. so I came up with a 19 as your max attack, subtracting one of from each subsequent attack.
Edit - Scratch that last one... +1 competence granted from bracers of archery... forgot to double check what those did. Alright I am better.
Lastly, It looks like you have one too many attacks with a +20 to hit. For haste, you only get one, rapid shot doesn't work and neither does many shot with flurry, so that can't be it. The Monk's Robe only adds class levels to AC and to damage, not to attacks, so I don't think that is it either. A level 11 monk has two hits at his highest attack bonus, add in the one from haste, and you should have a line like this:
20, 20, 20, 15, 15, 10
I would assume those things would change the damage output significantly, but I don't really know how you went about calculating damage, so I will leave that one up to you.
Last question... with the Zen Archer, at level 3 you can use your wisdom instead of your dex as your to hit. Why not just crack up your Wis score if you are starting after lvl 3 that is, so that you also are boosting your ki pool? I have never played a monk, but ranged anything intrigues me so I was curious as to your thoughts.
The other attack is from the Ki pool:
2 at full, 2 at -5, 1 at full for haste, 1 at full for Ki.
4 at full 2 at -5.
Both characters get one extra attack if they take multishot.
The +5 to hit will generally give the fighter the edge, but at this level saves are critical, the fighter should be awful and the monk amazing at those.
Thalin wrote: Both characters get one extra attack if they take multishot. This is not correct. The fighter gets one extra arrow of damage if his first attack of the full attack hits. The monk gains no benefit from multishot as per the flurry of blows ability in the APG under Zen Archer.
Zoddy wrote: Ki pool: 8 - meaning monk can do this kind of damage for maximum of 4 rounds, spending 2 per round - 1 extra attack; 1 unarmed damage; I've calculated just max, with potential of last attack not hitting Using ki to add the extra attack or increase damage to equal unarmed strike are both a swift action so unfortunately you could only do one or the other.
Where is multishot from? Can't find it on the srd, so I assume its from another source. Thanks abraham for the clearing up of the extra attack.
Improved natural attack can't be applied in this instance either can it? Or did I just read the feat wrong?
As mentioned, INA explicitly doesn`t work with Unarmed Strike.
The basic way you are calculating the Bow Fighter attacks seems off:
you`re listing 24/24/24/19 even though BAB +11 default gives you +11/+6/+1... So I think you`re missing one more attack @ +14.
What AC are you targetting? Are you just making up that there is only 1 Crit per Round?
You really should list the Monk`s DPR with different Ki usage rates
(all out 2/round +damage +attack, 1/round +damage OR +attack, 0 ki default)
Because obviously, this isn`t remotely a sustainable tactic for the Monk, while the Fighter can keep it up all day.
At most it`s 1/fight if your GM only runs 4 encounters/day, which is WAY more limited than Barbarian Rage.
(and the rest of the rounds you have NO KI POINTS left to spend on attacks or other usages)
...And I`m not even sure if it`s legal - MOST usages of Ki Points are mutually exclusive (i.e. 1 per round)
I suggest using Tejon`s DPR Calculator (Google Docs spreadsheet, search the boards for it, it was in the DPR contest thread) I`m not sure what level that was built for, you could adjust the spreadsheet to target a different AC (appropriate to CR), or adjust the character builds to fit the level the spreadsheet was designed for.
It may not have a check box for every option you`re using, but you can create two versions for when using Unarmed Strike damage and for when not doing so, and add in the `+additional attack` damage that the spreadsheet conveniently calculates.
Your comments about it `being wrong to tell your players to use point buy now` are baffling. You`re seemingly presenting paper doll numbers for purposes of a theoretical comparison. What does that have to do with rebuilding your players` characters in your own game?
nothingpoetic wrote: Where is multishot from? Can't find it on the srd, so I assume its from another source. Thanks abraham for the clearing up of the extra attack.
Improved natural attack can't be applied in this instance either can it? Or did I just read the feat wrong?
IIRC, the ruling is unarmed strikes are weapons that may be modified by spells that only hit natural weapons, but they are not natural weapons for the purpose of that monster feat.
Thalin mistakenly referred to `Manyshot` as `Multishot`, as the Feat is called in PRPG and 3.5.
I don`t see how there`s any necessity for a `ruling`. Improved Natural Attack explicitly says `Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike).`
Quandary wrote: Thalin mistakenly referred to `Manyshot` as `Multishot`, as the Feat is called in PRPG and 3.5.
I don`t see how there`s any necessity for a `ruling`. Improved Natural Attack explicitly says `Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike).`
That may be an errata...there was a thread on it that got FAQ'd.
Zoddy wrote: Did i crunch the numbers correctly ?
You have a few obvious errors.
You're spending ki to both get the extra attack and to increase weapon damage, yet both require swift actions.
You have a vicious bow, but only melee weapons can be vicious.
For some reason you're pumping DEX rather than WIS which is the point of the Zen archer, your Ki pool is based on WIS so I'd make the build around WIS.
In general a Zen archer balances the following with a fighter:
1st flurry balances with rapid shot
Ki point for extra attack balances with manyshot
Extra iterative and perfect shot balances with weapon training & greater specializations
The second is limited by Ki pool, the third is a toss up for which is better. Against low AC opponents the extra attack(s) are better, while the upto an extra +6 to hit +7 to damage can add up.
Basically while he's burning Ki the monk can keep up.
I'm not sure how you're figuring average damage here or against what target AC you're looking at for it. But it looks like you are assuming that you are always hitting, which is of course going to favor the Monk over the Fighter as the later gets a bonus to hit over the former in trade off for the Monk's increased number of attacks.
-James
Zoddy wrote: Did i crunch the numbers correctly ?
Also note that i gave Fighter with crossbow 2 crits on average while i gave those with bow 1 crit on average - 19-20 vs 20.
As for scores, i took scores of one of my players (we started RoTR with 3,5, it would be wrong if i told them to do point buy now half way through adventure). Scores are 18,17,16,14,14,13. Also i used Humans for all of the builds, i just noted levels next to feats to save you time of counting is there right number of them - not a pattern it should be taken in.
Note: PBS - Point Blank Shot; WT - Weapon Training; WF - Weapon Focus;
WotB -Way of the Bow;
Fighter lvl 11 (/w Crossbow)
Str 14
Dex 28 (18 base, +2 race, +2 level +6 ench)
Con 17
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 12
Feats: Point Blank Shot (1 lvl); Deadly Aim (Fgt 1); Rapid Shot (Human); Precise Shot (Fgt 2); Two Weapon fighting (3 lvl); Weapon Focus (crossbow) (Fgt 4); Weapon Spec (crossbow)(lvl 5); Weapon Focus (hand crossbow)(Fgt 6); Weapon Spec (hand crossbow) (lvl 7); Rapid Reload (Fgt 8); Crossbow Mastery (lvl 9); Exotic Weapon Prof. (hand crossbow) (Fgt 10); ITWF (lvl 11);
Equipment(82k): Boots of Speed (12k), Glove of Storing(10k), +1 keen crossbow(8k), +1 keen light crossbow(8k), Belt of Incredible Dexterity +6 (36k), Bracers of Archery Lesser (5k).
Total:79k
Attack : 11 BAB + 9 Dex + 2 WT2 + 1 WF +1 PBS +1 Haste +1 ench. + 1 comp. -2 twf - 2 rapidshot -3 deadly aim. Total:20
Damage : 2 WT2 +1 PBS +2 Weapon Spec +6/+3 Deadly Aim +1 Ench
Attacks: 20/20/20/15 (1d8 +12) and +20/15 (1d4 +9)
Average DMG: 18(base crossbow damage) +48 (bonus damage) + 5 (base light crossbow) + 18 (bonus damage = 89
Average 2 Crit Hits: 66 (2 Crits) + 33 (2 main attacks) +23 (2 off-hand) = 122
Fighter lvl 11 (/w Composite Longbow)
Str 16
Dex 28 (base 18 +2 race +2 lvl +6 ench)
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 12
Feats: Point Blank Shot (lvl 1); Precise Shot (Fgt 1); Rapidshot(Human); Manyshot(Fgt 2); Deadly Aim (lvl 3); Weapon Focus (Longbow)(Fgt 4); Weapon Spec (Longbow)(lvl 5); Point...
The Ironside thread has a premade formula that does all the calculations for you.
Okay, first of all, thanks for all of the replies, i was pretty sure that i did something wrong, was discussing this with one of my players for 2 and a half hours than i decided to do it, wasn't of completely clear mind.
This will take a while to reply to all of the posts:
Unarmed Strike - being how it stated that it works as manufactured and natural attack for purposes of spells and effects, i figured effects must be feats, cause only other effect (Amulet of Mighty Fists) clearly states that it works on unarmed attacks too. Being how i am wrong, i would like that someone point me in the right direction for clarification on this cause one of my players is running a monk and wouldn't really wanna be a douche and tell him "it doesn't work cause i said so".
As for Wis>Dex i agree, but for this particular case it doesn't matter, cause build will never see actual play. Cause than i would need to work on non-offensive equipment as well.
As for AC - yes i took approach of always hitting - except in a case with monks last attack thats on +10, cause average AC of CR 11 monsters is around 26-27, and these guys are self buffed - no Heroism sub-domain /no bard music, no other buffs what so ever.
As for crit, i am not making it up, i took crit ranges of weapons (crossbow 19-20; bow 20), being how all got 6 attacks, it seems right that crossbow got 1 more crit out of it, cause it got double threat range (with imp crit 17-20 vs bow's 19-20), so from some point of view double the chances of crit.
As for average damage d8 average is 4,5; d6 average is 3,5 - only in cases when total damage ends up something like 131,5 i round it up instead of down.
Nice catch for vicious and 2x swift actions, did all 3 builds first, calculated attacks/damage and than i figured that all 3 will definitely be using different gear, so i started adding it.
Again, thanks for all of the replies, will be correcting mistakes tomorrow, with Quandary's suggestion of breaking down DPR by Ki used. If there is some archery feat that i missed or item that is better than one i wrote, feel free to correct me.
Quote: Unarmed Strike - being how it stated that it works as manufactured and natural attack for purposes of spells and effects, i figured effects must be feats, cause only other effect (Amulet of Mighty Fists) clearly states that it works on unarmed attacks too. Being how i am wrong, i would like that someone point me in the right direction for clarification on this cause one of my players is running a monk and wouldn't really wanna be a douche and tell him "it doesn't work cause i said so". Basically, it doesn`t matter how natural attacks/unarmed strike NORMALLY is treated,
in this case the Feat itself directly excludes Unarmed Strike...
No different than if it excluded Tail Slaps, the Feat doesn`t apply to what it says it doesn`t apply to:
Quote: Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike).
I don`t see how the Feat can be any clearer unless it`s going to BOLD those words itself.
--------------------------------------------------------------
From what your wrote, it sounds like you indeed ARE `making up` the Crit numbers.
The point is that by comparison to actual AC`s you can figure out differences in Crit likelihood that fall between whole number values, e.g. 1.8 vs. 1.1.
And that affects average DPR vs. Target AC... which is why everybody uses that system when making DPR comparisons.
Likewise assuming all hits is less than accurate (and affects Crit Confirmation... for example, Critical Focus which gives +4 ONLY to CONFIRM Crits was found to be a pretty good Feat for maximizing DPR yet your method would find no value in it)
When you post DPR numbers like this, people expect them to be SOMEWHAT comparable to DPR numbers done by other people (with same level/wealth/stats/pointbuy/etc), but since your statistical methods aren`t the same as others, they can`t really be considered seriously... Which is your purpose in posting them here, right?
Like I said, search the messageboards for Tejon`s DPR Calculator and use that, since it does that hard work for you.
Here`s the link for the spreadsheet (i don`t know how it will deal with Ranged Flurries for one... you might try NOT checking them as Ranged but checking them as Finesse weapons so it will use DEX to-hit instead of STR, i.e. the same as Ranged)
Someone else Zen Archer Monk build is here.
That build is according to the standard `rules` for that comparison thread.
Having uber-stats like you`re using (again, why?) would inflate the numbers of course.
Read some of the posts and was tryingbto figurevouyt what the need to boost the zen archers unarmed damage was.
Quandary wrote: Basically, it doesn`t matter how natural attacks/unarmed strike NORMALLY is treated,
in this case the Feat itself directly excludes Unarmed Strike...
No different than if it excluded Tail Slaps, the Feat doesn`t apply to what it says it doesn`t apply to:
Quote: Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike).
I don`t see how the Feat can be any clearer unless it`s going to BOLD those words itself.
My bad, i didn't go ahead and check Bestiary Errata, cause i knew it worked in 3.5, so i presumed it works here too.
Quandary wrote:
From what your wrote, it sounds like you indeed ARE `making up` the Crit numbers.
The point is that by comparison to actual AC`s you can figure out differences in Crit likelihood that fall between whole number values, e.g. 1.8 vs. 1.1.
And that affects average DPR vs. Target AC... which is why everybody uses that system when making DPR comparisons.
Likewise assuming all hits is less than accurate (and affects Crit Confirmation... for example, Critical Focus which gives +4 ONLY to CONFIRM Crits was found to be a pretty good Feat for maximizing DPR yet your method would find no value in it)
As i said, standard AC for CR 11 monsters is around 26-27, so i worked with that, again my bad for not being through out in crunching numbers, but after 2 and a half hours of discussion with one of my players it took me a while to write up all of that with him at my back, questioning everyone of my equipment decisions, etc. it frustrated me quiet a bit.
Quandary wrote: When you post DPR numbers like this, people expect them to be SOMEWHAT comparable to DPR numbers done by other people (with same level/wealth/stats/pointbuy/etc), but since your statistical methods aren`t the same as others, they can`t really be considered seriously... Which is your purpose in posting them here, right? Yes, it was, i will use the spread sheet, and post more serious numbers in a bit.
Quandary wrote:
Like I said, search the messageboards for Tejon`s DPR Calculator and use that, since it does that hard work for you.
Here`s the link for the spreadsheet (i don`t know how it will deal with Ranged Flurries for one... you might try NOT checking them as Ranged but checking them as Finesse weapons so it will use DEX to-hit instead of STR, i.e. the same as Ranged)
Thanks for spreadsheet! will be using it as soon as i finish replying to this.
Quandary wrote:
That build is according to the standard `rules` for that comparison thread.
Having uber-stats like you`re using (again, why?) would inflate the numbers of course.
Cause we got APG like a 2 weeks ago and it circled around my party, than on last session after a short discussion for why and why not, i allowed them to rework their characters as long as they stay the same class - ergo Archetypes, feats and items. These were roll's of the party monk, and i don't regret keeping them on rolls (when we switched from 3,5 to PF), cause in combat they are acting like bunch of headless chickens for me unknown reason, even talked to them about it, but they didn't saw any problem in their combat pattern.
Okay - played around with spreadsheet. Thanks again Quandary!
Everything same as above except changes i will note here:
-removed Vicious from every weapon and made it +2 instead.
-removed INA on monk, so now average unarmed damage is 9, not 13,5.
-will do calculation with INA being a possibility, just to see the difference.
-PBS and flurry do not stack, so i will add approximate damage from PBS in brackets, cause i am not sure my math is bullet-proof on this, just grasping a concept, but pretty sure i just add damage +1 line to Average DPR cause attack +1 gives 0, and in case of extra attacks i go (damage +1 /5)*(5 + No. of extra attacks). Flurry gives 5 attacks, thats where 5 in formula comes from.
-targeting AC of 29.
Anyway, what i got from spreadsheet (and i am not gonna remove the possibility of me being wrong again.)
Monk:
(+1,14 per attack from PBS)
Normal full attack(Flurry):139.65 (145.35)
plus Deadly Aim:173.85 (179.55)
plus Haste:167.58 (174.42)
plus Deadly Aim and Haste:208.62 (215.46)
Full Attack with Extra Attack from Ki: 167.58 (174.42)
plus Deadly Aim:208.62 (215.46)
plus Deadly Aim and Haste:243.39 (251,37)
Full attack with Unarmed Damage:165.3 (171)
plus Deadly Aim: 199,5 (205,2)
plus Deadly Aim and Haste: 239.4 (246.42)
Full attack with INA Unarmed Damage: 190.95 (196.65)
plus Deadly Aim: 225.15 (230.85)
plus Deadly Aim and Haste: 270.18 (277.02)
Fighter /w crossbows:
Normal full attack(ITWF, Rapidshot, PBS):74.85
plus Deadly Aim:101.49
plus Haste:86.82
plus Deadly Aim and Haste:120.3
Fighter /w Composite Longbow:
Normal Full Attack (Rapidshot, Manyshot, PBS): 162.55
plus Deadly Aim: 195.61
plus Haste:196.18
plus Deadly Aim and Haste: 236.08
Cool. Thanks for posting that. I was interested in the Zen Archer but wasn't sure how it would stack up against a archer Fighter.
Just to point out, unless you mucked with the spreadsheet`s target AC (which isn`t overtly `revealed` or `exposed`)
you should put a -1 in `Global +attack` in the upper right corner, to account for the fact this is a level 11 build (and CR 11 avg. AC = 25), while the spreadsheet was designed around the rules of that thread (CR 10 = AC 24)
That probably isn`t going to change the numbers drastically, but I guess it will slightly favor Fighter with the higher attack bonus especially on lower iteratives.
The spreadsheet tells you numbers for `extra attack` (at full BAB aka Haste or Ki Strike), which which you can figure the DPR from Haste and Ki Strike - in the Monk`s case, add 2x `extra attack` DPR to his DPR total. (you probably figured this out, just making sure)
I`m not sure what you`re doing with PBS with the Monk - it doesn`t apply to Flurry?, but you are calculating it`s effect `as if` it applied, just like you`re showing numbers for the `breaking the rules/houserule` inclusion of Improved Natural Attack? Or something completely different?
If you`re wanting to compare PBS effects, you could just bump up the enhancement bonus by +1 since it applies to both att and dmg (like PBS), or you can put a +1 in `Global +attack` AND `Global +damage` for what should be the same effect, and the result will automatically be factored into the `extra attack` numbers as well as DPR)
If the numbers for PBS are another `not RAW legal combo` like INA, it`d be nice to explicitly note that.
Hope I`ve been helpful
Quandary wrote:
I`m not sure what you`re doing with PBS with the Monk - it doesn`t apply to Flurry?
Why doesn't point blank shot apply when flurrying?
-James
Cause spreadsheet itself doesn't support range flurry, aka i had to add PBS damage manually and use weapon finesse to get dex to count into attacks - otherwise it stacks, there is no sentence in flurry that states otherwise.
As for INA, i stated it's not by rules but i still did it, cause i know some people houseruled it to work.
I was pretty sure average AC for CR 11 is 26 or 27 - at least by monsters that are CR 11 not by rules for creating monsters.
As for -1 Global Attack, i suppose it should give -1 attack, but i don't see how is that relevant, i already bumped AC by 2-3 from average, to accommodate for the fact that mostly PC's are fighting creatures at least 1 CR higher or at least slightly buffed up.
As for PBS, again, i did it the hard way, i just noticed Global Part of the spreadsheet when you pointed it out
Not trying to sound arrogant or anything like that.
Also i did check and fighter does excel, Monk can reliably hit till AC 29 without drop in DPR, Fighter can go up to 36 if i am not wrong.
Sounds like you have it more or less handled now...
Adding +1 to enhancement seems the easiest `cheat` for modelling PBS when using ´pseudo Ranged´ Finesse Flurry.
I went back and checked and the spreadsheet of course DOES have an editable Target AC,
so there`s no need to hack around that if you`re looking at a different level range.
That AC you`re using does seem reasonable for the CR, I think the `average` AC for CR is `average` because it`s for both lower AC caster type monsters and higher AC melee threats. Since the latter is the one also with more HPs where you`ll care about DPR the most, it makes more sense to lean that direction.
The end result (while having crazy huge numbers from those stats)
more or less matches up to what has been the general take on Zen Archer v. Fighter,
namely that the Archer Monk can certainly qualifies as a competent primary ranged combatant, and can even surpass Fighters for a few rounds per day when using Ki Strike for extra attacks (OR if house-ruled, increased damage).
If you have the hang of the spreadsheet now, I`m sure other people in the DPR thread might like to see a similar comparison, though within the context of that thread (NPC Elite Array starting stats, 10th level, wealth limit, target AC) for better comparison. It would also be interesting to see how lower stats affects each of the classes... I suspect the Fighter is better off with lower stats/pointbuy. Using the APG Archer Fighter variant shouldn`t change the numbers any within the scope of the DPR thread (though it saves Feats, e.g. no need for Point Blank Mastery), but the range extension means you will be hitting and critting more at further range (and benefitting from PBS further out).
Quandary wrote:
The end result (while having crazy huge numbers from those stats)
more or less matches up to what has been the general take on Zen Archer v. Fighter,
namely that the Archer Monk can certainly qualifies as a competent primary ranged combatant, and can even surpass Fighters for a few rounds per day when using Ki Strike for extra attacks (OR if house-ruled, increased damage).
Dependent upon going after a non-hard target, as once you get a high AC in there the fighter's extra to hit will be felt.
So if you're in PFS or a campaign with limited numbers of combats per day the Zen Archer will work well for you.
For PFS (with it's level 12 cap) I'd go Dwarf Monk through til 10th level and then cap the last two levels off with rogue. You lose 1BAB but gain trapfinding, evasion, and 1d6 sneak (to slightly offset the 1BAB). You lose 1FORT&1WILL for 2REF, and should be able to disable traps reliably even on a PC with a 7INT.
-James
Zoddy wrote: Cause spreadsheet itself doesn't support range flurry, aka i had to add PBS damage manually and use weapon finesse to get dex to count into attacks - otherwise it stacks, there is no sentence in flurry that states otherwise.
As for INA, i stated it's not by rules but i still did it, cause i know some people houseruled it to work.
I was pretty sure average AC for CR 11 is 26 or 27 - at least by monsters that are CR 11 not by rules for creating monsters.
As for -1 Global Attack, i suppose it should give -1 attack, but i don't see how is that relevant, i already bumped AC by 2-3 from average, to accommodate for the fact that mostly PC's are fighting creatures at least 1 CR higher or at least slightly buffed up.
As for PBS, again, i did it the hard way, i just noticed Global Part of the spreadsheet when you pointed it out
Not trying to sound arrogant or anything like that.
Also i did check and fighter does excel, Monk can reliably hit till AC 29 without drop in DPR, Fighter can go up to 36 if i am not wrong.
Why would INA affect a ranged attack?
wraithstrike wrote:
Why would INA affect a ranged attack?
There is an ill-thought out option for Zen Archers to spend a ki point and a swift action to deal unarmed strike damage with arrows for the round.
It is near useless as the option to spend the same point and action will give them instead another full BAB attack.
Which is a shame as on paper, before you realize what it is competing with it sounds like a nice ability.
The Zen archer abilities at higher levels are not very well thought through in this fashion. There's another higher level power to burn ki to ignore concealment.. but what archer isn't going to take improved precise shot when given the option at 6th level?
Don't get me wrong, it's a nice monk variant, but lacks a good deal of polish in this respect.
-James
Eum ... any self respecting archer will have seeking on the weapon by than...
But yes, mostly archetypes are badly thought out, they add flavor without mechanic to back it up, like 90% of classes are mechanically superior to their archetypes.
Zoddy wrote: Eum ... any self respecting archer will have seeking on the weapon by than...
By 6th level? 8k is a bit pricy at that point.
Improved precise is a great way of having that holy bow that much earlier.. and when you're looking to go from 3 to 4 then bane evil outsiders volunteers.
Don't get me wrong.. seeking is awesome and any archer without improved precise has to have it.
-James
james maissen wrote: Zoddy wrote: Eum ... any self respecting archer will have seeking on the weapon by than...
By 6th level? 8k is a bit pricy at that point.
Improved precise is a great way of having that holy bow that much earlier.. and when you're looking to go from 3 to 4 then bane evil outsiders volunteers.
Don't get me wrong.. seeking is awesome and any archer without improved precise has to have it.
-James My bad, was sleepy at the time. Yea at 6th no, but than again, at level 12+ or so, yes. Also why would anyone enchant their weapon with good old +2/+3 when they can get pearl of power to their cleric or wizard - better cleric if dude got strand of prayer beads.
Zoddy wrote: Also why would anyone enchant their weapon with good old +2/+3 when they can get pearl of power to their cleric or wizard - better cleric if dude got strand of prayer beads. Yeah well that's a problem with weapon/armor pricing. They should have two tables.. one for enchantments and one for enhancements. In other words the price to upgrade a +1 bow to +2 should be the same as to upgrade a +1 holy bow to +2, etc...
As it is except in weird party makeups you're better off using GMW and magic vestments.
-James
james maissen wrote:
There is an ill-thought out option for Zen Archers to spend a ki point and a swift action to deal unarmed strike damage with arrows for the round.
It is near useless as the option to spend the same point and action will give them instead another full BAB attack.
Which is a shame as on paper, before you realize what it is competing with it sounds like a nice ability.
FWIW, I think the ability is pretty nice as an option, since it provides an option for dealing with high DR targets. It's not as rare as you might think.
james maissen wrote:
The Zen archer abilities at higher levels are not very well thought through in this fashion. There's another higher level power to burn ki to ignore concealment.. but what archer isn't going to take improved precise shot when given the option at 6th level?
-James
Also, Improved Precise Shot ignores < total cover or concealment. At 11th, you can even ignore total cover/concealment, albeit at a high cost of ki points.
If you're saying that the abilities could have been stronger, then I agree -- everything can always become more powerful.
But if you're saying it's a) underpowered or b) has no synergy, I disagree.
Rubia
Rubia wrote:
But if you're saying it's a) underpowered or b) has no synergy, I disagree.
Rubia
Alright, I'll bite, where's the synergy?
If you could burn any number of ki for different things (say increased damage/arrow AND also the extra attack AND something else) in one round then I wouldn't have issue with it.
But monks essentially need to burn ki to keep up with a fighter archer, and these other otherwise nice but not stellar abilities conflict with that. I would say that it's quite the opposite of having synergy in fact.
I'll also say that given the level you're talking about and the perspective that a 6th level monk (as well as a 6th level ranger or anyone with an 11BAB) will be able to have improved precise shot and that seeking is not that far out there when it comes to missile weapon enhancements that the ability, for its level, is indeed underpowered.
Frankly I don't see the downside of loosing those monk levels in exchange for trapfinding, trapspotter, and evasion.
-James
james maissen wrote:
Alright, I'll bite, where's the synergy?
If you could burn any number of ki for different things (say increased damage/arrow AND also the extra attack AND something else) in one round then I wouldn't have issue with it.
But monks essentially need to burn ki to keep up with a fighter archer, and these other otherwise nice but not stellar abilities conflict with that. I would say that it's quite the opposite of having synergy in fact.
I think what you mean is that you want simultaneous uses of these abilities. I agree with that idea, because I'd love to have it also.
However, the contention that the zen archer lacks a theme and lacks
abilities that synergize with bow attacks seems to not ring true. I treat the monk's ki abilities as follows:
*Any* of the abilities listed are good buffs. Pick the one that best
represents your needs and situation at the moment. Apply it. The overall effect will be similar to a fighter of your level.
Now, I admit that I haven't verified the last sentence in the paragraph above, but there are plenty of posts around here that establish the DPR of this subclass as similar to a fighter.
james maissen wrote:
I'll also say that given the level you're talking about and the perspective that a 6th level monk (as well as a 6th level ranger or anyone with an 11BAB) will be able to have improved precise shot and that seeking is not that far out there when it comes to missile weapon enhancements that the ability, for its level, is indeed underpowered.
Frankly I don't see the downside of loosing those monk levels in exchange for trapfinding, trapspotter, and evasion.
-James
I think the ultimate flaw in most of the posts on these forums (not simply yours) is that the whole picture isn't considered. Sure, another character at 6th level (one archetype) or anyone with full BAB *five levels later* can have the improved precise shot, but that's part of the tradeoff. You lost five levels of winning there, or you're a ranger that's got other balancing factors.
And sure, all of those people can put seeking on their weapon. But I can instead add a different enhancement to my bow, and seeking *still* doesn't deal with total cover, whereas this monk ability does.
I don't see what your point is about losing monk levels, unless you're arguing that a rogue is a superior archer to a monk. In which case, I'll ask, how are you dealing with the BAB loss?
Rubia
Actually, if you want a zen archer monk to far out damage a fighter archer, you could just get 3 wands,(enlarge person, gravity bow, and strong jaw) and your monk now has an unarmed strike of 12d8. 1 swift action to activate ki arrows and your lvl 15+ zen archer has a 12d8 arrow flying out of your bow. Even if the fighter has gravity bow on as well, it is still 12d8 vs 2d6. 54 vs 7 average weapon damage. Drop that into the damage calculator.
Rubia wrote:
I think the ultimate flaw in most of the posts on these forums (not simply yours) is that the whole picture isn't considered. Sure, another character at 6th level (one archetype) or anyone with full BAB *five levels later* can have the improved precise shot, but that's part of the tradeoff. You lost five levels of winning there, or you're a...
No, what I'm saying is that the Zen Archer monk will take improved precise shot at 6th level, because it is so awesome and worth taking.
That said, most of the uses for spending a point of Ki aren't needed, and already come at the expense of not being able to make an extra attack.
Likewise being able to increase the base damage is nice, but it is not the equivalent of making a full extra attack.
If they allowed monks to burn ki for multiple things with one swift action then I would applaud all of these abilities, but since using the ki for anything else is giving up a top level attack.. it's a hefty price tag that makes many of these choices worthless.
The monk archer in question I figured would wish to be able to disable traps and find them a full speed. The two levels of rogue allow this, and imho don't make him sacrifice much for what's gained.
-James
james maissen wrote: Rubia wrote:
I think the ultimate flaw in most of the posts on these forums (not simply yours) is that the whole picture isn't considered. Sure, another character at 6th level (one archetype) or anyone with full BAB *five levels later* can have the improved precise shot, but that's part of the tradeoff. You lost five levels of winning there, or you're a...
Likewise being able to increase the base damage is nice, but it is not the equivalent of making a full extra attack.
If they allowed monks to burn ki for multiple things with one swift action then I would applaud all of these abilities, but since using the ki for anything else is giving up a top level attack.. it's a hefty price tag that makes many of these choices worthless.
-James I think you may need to recalculate. A zen archer monk who has optimized his unarmed strike damage even alittle (combine enlarge person with strong jaw) has a late game unarmed strike of 8d8.
I might be using the damage calculator wrong but it looks like a lvl 15 monk with 20 str/wis a +5 longbow, and 8d8 unarmed strike can do 451 or so damage a round. If they also put gravity bow on themselves, their ranged damage goes up to 12d8 and their dpr goes to 600. I am thinking a +33 to damage per attack has got to be greater than a single extra attack at full bab, especially considering a large monk threatens 10 ft and can take AoO's with his bow.
So ki arrows should be a better use of the swift action than gaining a bonus attack.
EDIT: Actually, I think I used the damage calculator wrong. What is the usual target AC for a CR 15 enemy?
thepuregamer wrote:
I think you may need to recalculate. A zen archer monk who has optimized his unarmed strike damage even alittle (combine enlarge person with strong jaw) has a late game unarmed strike of 8d8.
EDIT: Actually, I think I used the damage calculator wrong. What is the usual target AC for a CR 15 enemy?
Well first I was considering this a 12 level build (focused on PFS) and not going higher.
Second gravity bow is not going to stack. It enhances the arrow's damage while the monk ability is replacing that damage. Since you are using spells that increase your unarmed strike damage but wouldn't be increasing your arrow I think its right to call shenanigans there.
Now I had not considered strong jaw. If you can get the 4th level druid spell on you it becomes worthwhile. It would make each arrow deal 6d6 base damage, or in other words +16.5/arrow. Meanwhile without the strong jaw spell you're looking at +6/arrow which certainly would not be worth it. Likewise without the enlarge you're looking at +9.5/arrow which breaks even at 38 avg dam/arrow which is about right.
So with strong jaw and enlarge it becomes viable, should you have time to buff and have access to strong jaw in some manor or form.
-James
james maissen wrote: thepuregamer wrote:
I think you may need to recalculate. A zen archer monk who has optimized his unarmed strike damage even alittle (combine enlarge person with strong jaw) has a late game unarmed strike of 8d8.
EDIT: Actually, I think I used the damage calculator wrong. What is the usual target AC for a CR 15 enemy?
Well first I was considering this a 12 level build (focused on PFS) and not going higher.
Second gravity bow is not going to stack. It enhances the arrow's damage while the monk ability is replacing that damage. Since you are using spells that increase your unarmed strike damage but wouldn't be increasing your arrow I think its right to call shenanigans there.
Now I had not considered strong jaw. If you can get the 4th level druid spell on you it becomes worthwhile. It would make each arrow deal 6d6 base damage, or in other words +16.5/arrow. Meanwhile without the strong jaw spell you're looking at +6/arrow which certainly would not be worth it. Likewise without the enlarge you're looking at +9.5/arrow which breaks even at 38 avg dam/arrow which is about right.
So with strong jaw and enlarge it becomes viable, should you have time to buff and have access to strong jaw in some manor or form.
-James Some minor corrections, enlarge can be made permanent if you want. Its cheaper that way. A wand of enlarge caster level 10 would be 7500 in a store or 3750 if made by a party member. also strong jaw is also a lvl 3 ranger spell. so you get it on a wand as a level 3 spell. A CL 10 wand of strong jaw would cost 22500 at a store or 11250 if made by a party member. I pick CL 10 semi arbitrarily but that is long enough that while hiding before starting an encounter( if you are not caught by surprise) he could UMD the 2 buffs on himself and make it through th whole encounter for sure.
Second I believe you are wrong on the damage. If enlarged and strong jawed, a lvl 12 monk with a monk robe would have 6d8 unarmed damage.
2d8->3d8->4d8->6d8
So without enlarged or strong jawed, arrow damage is +4.5
enlarged alone is +9
strong jawed alone is +13.5
and enlarged/ strong jawed is +22.5
This is for your lvl 12 monk example.
thepuregamer wrote: also strong jaw is also a lvl 3 ranger spell. so you get it on a wand as a level 3 spell. A CL 10 wand of strong jaw would cost 22500 at a store or 11250 if made by a party member. I pick CL 10 semi arbitrarily but that is long enough that while hiding before starting an encounter( if you are not caught by surprise) he could UMD the 2 buffs on himself and make it through th whole encounter for sure.
Second I believe you are wrong on the damage. If enlarged and strong jawed, a lvl 12 monk with a monk robe would have 6d8 unarmed damage.
2d8->3d8->4d8->6d8
...
It's 2d6->3d6->6d6, as the level 12 monk has base 2d6 damage. That said, it can be raised to 2d8 base damage.
Permanent enlarge is fine, though it has its drawbacks. One of which is that you are taking a penalty on your stealth checks. But its the buffing from the wand of strong jaws that was the issue for me.
I don't find it likely that there is a PC Ranger in the party with craft wand, so we are talking 22.5k which is a large investment of wealth at level 12. Do out the gear that the level 12 monk wishes to have at this level and see what it hits into. Perhaps its worth it.
And as to buffing before an encounter, if you can surprise the enemy sure you are going to have a big advantage over them. But to do so here, you'd have to either retreat to such a distance as not to be heard activating the wand (otherwise we're making these potions and upping the cost drastically) which can be problematic.
If, on the other hand, you're giving up your surprise round action for this then not only do you have a wand in your hand (so I assume you are dropping it during combat) but with the right tactical feat you could have been making a full attack here instead.
Again I hadn't considered strong jaws, and it does find use for the ability via that, but does have to contort a bit in order to do so imho.
-James
thepuregamer wrote: Actually, if you want a zen archer monk to far out damage a fighter archer, you could just get 3 wands,(enlarge person, gravity bow, and strong jaw) and your monk now has an unarmed strike of 12d8. 1 swift action to activate ki arrows and your lvl 15+ zen archer has a 12d8 arrow flying out of your bow. Even if the fighter has gravity bow on as well, it is still 12d8 vs 2d6. 54 vs 7 average weapon damage. Drop that into the damage calculator. I don't think strong jaw works the way you want it to. Strong Jaw specifically states that it only kicks in when you make natural attacks. The Zen Archer's arrows (even if you utilize the ki ability) only allows you to apply your unarmed strike damage. It still does not change the fact that the attack is actually not a natural attack.
And just to head this off at the pass too, the 17th level ability *still* does not allow it to work as intended.
james maissen wrote: No, what I'm saying is that the Zen Archer monk will take improved precise shot at 6th level, because it is so awesome and worth taking.
That said, most of the uses for spending a point of Ki aren't needed, and already come at the expense of not being able to make an extra attack.
Likewise being able to increase the base damage is nice, but it is not the equivalent of making a full extra attack.
You've missed my point again. The abilities that you're knocking are situationally useful, at the very least, and in those situations much better than an extra attack. Attacking an opponent behind total cover with a full-attack is much better than sucking it hardcore. No ability, skill, or magical enhancement can approximate that effect. Period.
But that "situation argument" is a relatively argument for me to make, especially when the case for the ZA's abilities is much easier. The stronger argument follows.
1) Some DPR calculations have shown that damage is "similar" when you get X attacks at d8 base damage to X-1 attacks at unarmed strike damage. (See other results in similar threads.) I define similar as within 10%, but it may be much closer than that.
2) This damage calculator ignores the very common issues regarding DR, in which X attacks may do drastically less damage than X-1 attacks with a bumped up base damage. This scenario is not uncommon at all, and is one of the many challenges that any good archer must address.
3) The base damage can be increased readily, cheaply (compared to other options), and buffed.
4) Conclusion: you are a more versatile archer that does not suffer from one of the primary limitations of an iterative attacker -- "sucky damage per attack".
5) You can still use the extra attack if you want to if the creature has no DR. Instant fighter!
6) You have cute tricks that may be situationally useful (increased range for some insane combat scenario or total cover issues).
james maissen wrote:
If they allowed monks to burn ki for multiple things with one swift action then I would applaud all of these abilities, but since using the ki for anything else is giving up a top level attack.. it's a hefty price tag that makes many of these choices worthless.
This is ultimately where we disagree. The "cost" of that high level attack is not nearly as steep as you would like to claim it is.
james maissen wrote: The monk archer in question I figured would wish to be able to disable traps and find them a full speed. The two levels of rogue allow this, and imho don't make him sacrifice much for what's gained.
In my opinion, your argument that level 11's bonus isn't great is worthwhile, but I think you're undervaluing the extra damage option.
If trapfinding matters for you, rangers do the same while providing a point of BAB and keeps HP same. Having extra damage / to hit vs Evil Outsiders or Undead is also handy at that level.
Thalin wrote: If trapfinding matters for you, rangers do the same while providing a point of BAB and keeps HP same. Having extra damage / to hit vs Evil Outsiders or Undead is also handy at that level. No, they don't.
Ranger (kind with trapfinding.. guess it's urban variant)
Gains:
1BAB
2FORT
+2 Favored Enemy
Spell completion for ranger spells
level 11 Monk ability or level2 in Ranger
Losses:
Evasion
1d6 sneak
Trap Sense +1
UMD class skill (lets a 1 rank dip give a +1 modified score)
4 skill points
Trap spotter rogue talent.
Maybe I missed some thing here.
-James
Rubia wrote:
You've missed my point again.
I guess I was focused on the synergy that you mentioned.
Also I was seeing many of those abilities as being redundant. The last is worthwhile I'll admit, but its a big cost for it as well.
Again I'm seeing a PC here that's likely trying to scout for his party and trapfinding is very useful there.
Without it he'll be going at a very slow pace searching for traps and then have no means to deal with them when he finds them.
With it he'll be going at full speed automatically finding them and then removing them without danger.
That's a big bonus and seems to fit with the character's everyday needs.
While there is a trade-off, I don't see it as a huge one.
-James
Rubia wrote: I don't think strong jaw works the way you want it to. Strong Jaw specifically states that it only kicks in when you make natural attacks. The Zen Archer's arrows (even if you utilize the ki ability) only allows you to apply your unarmed strike damage. It still does not change the fact that the attack is actually not a natural attack.
And just to head this off at the pass too, the 17th level ability *still* does not allow it to work as intended.
I would say that the first sentence makes it a blanket buff to natural attacks as opposed to one that is activated each time you swing with a natural weapon.
INA also uses the term natural attack. The term doesn't necessarily imply an action.
These instances of natural attack do not describe an action but a weapon.
I see your point as you are referring to the second sentence but I find that the first sentence leans in the direction of a constant buff to natural attacks.
Not sure what the big problem with the lvl 17 ability is. Sure the enhancement says can only be placed on a melee weapon, but that seems irrelevant considering, you aren't enchanting your bow. It isn't actually a ki focus weapon, it just gains the benefits of ki focus which is the ability to use quivering fist and stunning fist. Though, its coming alittle late for me to be freaking out about it. Especially since I am considering multiclassing the last 4 or 5 levels of any monk build I make. So that I have access to the last vital strike feat and some other stuff.
Middle Aged dwarf lvl 12 monk- wise dude
going by similar starting stats to earlier
str= 14 base -1 age=13
dex= 13 base -1 age +2 enhancement= 14
con= 13 base -1 age +2 racial= 14
int= 7 base +1 age= 8
wis= 16 base +1 age +2 racial +3 lvls +4 enhancement= 26
cha= 13 base +1 age -2 racial= 14
feats: undecided, point blank shot(monk),precise shot(monk), mundecided, deadly aim, imp precise shot(monk), combat reflexes,undecided , parting shot(monk), imp critical, weapon focus and specialization(wotb)
equipment: boots of speed(12k), amulet of NA+2(8k), bracers of archery, lesser(5k), monk's robe(13k), pearl of power lvl 3(9k), pearl of power lvl 1( 1k), headband of inspired wisdom+4(16k), +1 guided longbow(8k), permanency enlarge person(2.5k), belt of incredible dexterity+2(4k)= 76.5k
31.5k remaining in a lvl 12 budget. So a wand of strong jaw is possible. If you have access to in party crafters then this can be stretched further. Pearls of power are for getting a party member to put mage armor and greater magic weapon on you/bow at no cost to themselves. guided enhancement is a pathfinder source material that allows one to add wisdom to attack and damage. It might also be applicable to any fighter archer example used.
bab=9/12 in a flurry. Full + to hit= 12+8+1+4+1-1-2=+23
full attack with flurry= 23/23/18/18/13
with speed boots active= 23/23/23/18/18/13
unarmed strike damage= 2d8 regular, 3d8 enlarged, and 6d8 enlarged/ strong jawed.
Minor note, might want to switch permanency enlarge with a wand if the monk is acting as the party scout as then his stealth numbers are better and he can use the wands before encounter with his +14 UMD.
Also, this is not every monk you will see in a dnd game but I thought I would try to optimize as much as I could for the sake of a maximum example. If you see any ways to improve lemme know. Grabbing food and then I will mess around with a damage calc to find his dpr(unless someone else wants to do it
Side note: Also I see room for strong jaw being ok with permanency. spells with similar duration and spells with a bigger effect are used with it. Greater magic fang ultimately boosts to hit by 5 and damage by 5. As compared to a 2 size increase in damage which is like a 10 to 15 point damage increase at the higher end. Plus greater magic fang and strong jaw are similar as they are abilities that improve natural attacks. If strong jaw were printed in the core rule book, then I could see it going on the list. Of course this is a DM discretion thing which is why it isn't in the build.
thepuregamer wrote: Middle Aged dwarf lvl 12 monk- wise dude
going by similar starting stats to earlier
str= 14 base -1 age=13
dex= 17 base -1 age +2 enhancement= 18
con= 16 base -1 age +2 racial= 17
int= 14 base +1 age= 15
wis= 18 base +1 age +2 racial +3 lvls +4 enhancement= 28
cha= 12 base +1 age -2 racial= 11
That makes for an insane point buy, I'm assuming we're going off of rolled stats here.
Why don't you tone that down to a 20pt buy? A zen archer monk shouldn't have much issue with that. Also at least as far as PFS goes age mods don't apply.
Also, honestly, I don't think that shot on the run is worth it. You have a good number of feats free as a zen archer. Can you make them pay off better than that?
-James
james maissen wrote: thepuregamer wrote: Middle Aged dwarf lvl 12 monk- wise dude
going by similar starting stats to earlier
str= 14 base -1 age=13
dex= 17 base -1 age +2 enhancement= 18
con= 16 base -1 age +2 racial= 17
int= 14 base +1 age= 15
wis= 18 base +1 age +2 racial +3 lvls +4 enhancement= 28
cha= 12 base +1 age -2 racial= 11
That makes for an insane point buy, I'm assuming we're going off of rolled stats here.
Why don't you tone that down to a 20pt buy? A zen archer monk shouldn't have much issue with that. Also at least as far as PFS goes age mods don't apply.
Also, honestly, I don't think that shot on the run is worth it. You have a good number of feats free as a zen archer. Can you make them pay off better than that?
-James I just used the same base stats that zoddy originally used. I can definitely tone them down.
Also I wanted to make the character semi realistic and thus I went for parting shot as it is a good way to continue dealing damage while escaping from a bad situation. I will switch it up though.
brought the stats down to 20 point buy.
thepuregamer wrote: I would say that the first sentence makes it a blanket buff to natural attacks as opposed to one that is activated each time you swing with a natural weapon.
** spoiler omitted **
INA also uses the term natural attack. The term doesn't necessarily imply an action.
It has been specifically FAQed that INA does not work with unarmed strike damage. Here's the link:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Improved-Natural-Attack-f eat-7-25-1
Nevertheless, let's read the second sentence of Strong Jaw together:
"Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is. . . "
It's clear that the additional size modifier only applies when the creature makes a natural attack. The bow attack with the zen archer is not a natural attack. It is a weapon attack that may substitute unarmed strike damage dice in its place. Therefore, it doesn't trigger Strong Jaw.
You are right that the bonus is a constant buff to natural attacks, but that's all it is -- a buff when you make natural attacks.
thepuregamer wrote:
Not sure what the big problem with the lvl 17 ability is. Sure the enhancement says can only be placed on a melee weapon, but that seems irrelevant considering, you aren't enchanting your bow. It isn't actually a ki focus weapon, it just gains the benefits of ki focus which is the ability to use quivering fist and stunning fist. Though, its coming alittle late for me to be freaking out about it. Especially since I am considering multiclassing the last 4 or 5 levels of any monk build I make. So that I have access to the last vital strike feat and some other stuff.
I meant that even with the level 17 ability, you still can't use Strong Jaw to do more damage. Of course you can use the ki attacks like stunning fist, etc. Sorry if I was confusing on that point.
Rubia
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