Hey Folks, I'm getting ready to roll out a re-created level 5 character tomorrow. We are playing council of thieves, and our party is rather disfunctional in combat (we routinely argue about why we should/shouldn't do things, and often pass up BBEG/loot/challenges ,etc because we can't agree morally how to tackle a problem) and we spend alot of our time in really sticky situations, with half the party knocking on deaths door.
I currently have a monk2/rogue2 that I'm being gracefully allowed to kill off, and start a new character.
Our party lacks decent front line fighters and deals pretty much 0 melee damage. My monk was doing OK, but my build was not great and I realize that going with monk you end up with a huge gold disadvantage, and my build was not super great.
So, what I've got is a Ranger2/Ftr1/RogueX or Ftr3/RogueX build with Orc, Toothy, A Longsword, Heavy Darkwood Shield, and armor spikes for TWF and a bite attack for a total of 5 attacks at level 7. I crunched the numbers with AnyDice and it works out significantly better damage wise than a fighter-heavy or 2hand build (though, I am probably not seeing the best 2hand build, havent had any experience there)
Build looks like:
Orc with Toothy racial alternate
Heirloom weapon, Brute traits (2 to intim)
1 Ranger1 Power Attack ,Enemy Outsider (evil)
2 Ranger2 TWF
3 Rog(thug)1 Intimidating Prowess, SA 1d6
4 Rog2 Bleeding attack
5 Rog3 SA 2d6, Weapon Focus (longsword?)
6 Rog4 Combat trick: Cornugon Smash
7 Ftr1 Improved TWF, Dazzling Display (buying +2 dex item here for ITWF prereqs)
At level 6 (Will be starting at 5) intimidate should be +16, with free intimidates on power attack hits, and thug adding extra rounds/frightened to intimidate checks.
Shatter Defenses will come at level 9 to automatically SA intimidated foes.
Thug can also sacrifice 1d6 for sickened, which should stack with shaken, for a -4. Sounds good :)
Was thinking of swapping the ranger levels for fighter to be able to wear regular BP and still move full and not have to spend 4k fo my 10500 on a mithral BP. Not sure whats right there. We're doing Cheliax, so I think evil outsider favored enemy is good to have, as well as the extra saves and wand use of ranger, but I think my AC is not gonna be super great even with a Heavy shield
As a rough rule of thumb, an AC of 20 + character level is pretty good to have.
As a rough rule of thumb, an AC of 20 + character level is pretty good to have.
Any tips on how to best get that within the 10500 level 5 gold?
I'm not sure if the fighter's superior AC works out better. I could for example get mithril full plate (if I waited) in a level or so and have full speed with the fighter, or does the cost not realy work out? I understand we will finish the campaign around level 12.
With the ranger-included build, I was thinking of using a Agile Mithril BP , which will run me about 4k.
I was originally thinking of using a greatsword + armor spikes, but then the AC would be pretty abysmal.
I figure I'll buy a +2 Darkwood Large shield and not enchant the armor incase I want to trade up later.
Any hints on what my item list should look like? :)
I think with a +2 shield, and a +1 BP, He'd have 22AC, and have spent a little less than half of his starting gold.
I guess I could dump TWF and/or ITWF, and gain an additional 2 AC here, but doing the numbers on anydice (which is awesome), the extra attacks add significant average damage per round, and I really like the intimidate line and don't have the feats to get all the 2H feats alongside I guess
As a rough rule of thumb, an AC of 20 + character level is pretty good to have.Any tips on how to best get that within the 10500 level 5 gold?
I'm not sure if the fighter's superior AC works out better. I could for example get mithril full plate (if I waited) in a level or so and have full speed with the fighter, or does the cost not realy work out? I understand we will finish the campaign around level 12.
With the ranger-included build, I was thinking of using a Agile Mithril BP , which will run me about 4k.
I was originally thinking of using a greatsword + armor spikes, but then the AC would be pretty abysmal.
I figure I'll buy a +2 Darkwood Large shield and not enchant the armor incase I want to trade up later.
Any hints on what my item list should look like? :)
I think with a +2 shield, and a +1 BP, He'd have 22AC, and have spent a little less than half of his starting gold.
I guess I could dump TWF and/or ITWF, and gain an additional 2 AC here, but doing the numbers on anydice (which is awesome), the extra attacks add significant average damage per round, and I really like the intimidate line and don't have the feats to get all the 2H feats alongside I guess
The best way to get a high AC on a budget (besides having good armor and a high Dex) is to split the costs.
Having +1 armor, a +1 shield, a ring of protection +1, and an amulet of protection +1 will get you more AC at a lower cost than any one of those items at a higher bonus. Find out how much you want to spend to pump your AC, then find out the most efficient way to allocate your bonus among these items. Generally, armor and shield come first as they are dirt cheap. Then you pick up the ring. Then the amulet.
I'd go ahead and do the math for you, but I don't know if you want to spend the entire 10,500 on it.
As a rough rule of thumb, an AC of 20 + character level is pretty good to have.Any tips on how to best get that within the 10500 level 5 gold?
I'm not sure if the fighter's superior AC works out better. I could for example get mithril full plate (if I waited) in a level or so and have full speed with the fighter, or does the cost not realy work out? I understand we will finish the campaign around level 12.
With the ranger-included build, I was thinking of using a Agile Mithril BP , which will run me about 4k.
I was originally thinking of using a greatsword + armor spikes, but then the AC would be pretty abysmal.
I figure I'll buy a +2 Darkwood Large shield and not enchant the armor incase I want to trade up later.
Any hints on what my item list should look like? :)
I think with a +2 shield, and a +1 BP, He'd have 22AC, and have spent a little less than half of his starting gold.
I guess I could dump TWF and/or ITWF, and gain an additional 2 AC here, but doing the numbers on anydice (which is awesome), the extra attacks add significant average damage per round, and I really like the intimidate line and don't have the feats to get all the 2H feats alongside I guess
The best way to get a high AC on a budget (besides having good armor and a high Dex) is to split the costs.
Having +1 armor, a +1 shield, a ring of protection +1, and an amulet of protection +1 will get you more AC at a lower cost than any one of those items at a higher bonus. Find out how much you want to spend to pump your AC, then find out the most efficient way to allocate your bonus among these items. Generally, armor and shield come first as they are dirt cheap. Then you pick up the ring. Then the amulet.
I'd go ahead and do the math for you, but I don't know if you want to spend the entire 10,500 on it.
I think if allowed, I will spend the lion's share on defense. I'm aiming for a +1 Holy weapon enchant, so I will probably roll with my normal Heirloom weapon and hope to get a hand-me-down from the party (I will buy a pot or two of magic weapon just in case, but I think my damage will be fine for overcoming DR).
I guess one thing is by 7 I need to get +2 dex from items, so it might behoove me to do that early on.
Also, any suggestion on if I should go Ranger2/ftr1 or Fighter3?
I think I save some $$$ on fighter3, but have worse saves, no favored enemy (might be great in Cheliax).
I'm pretty sure if I was rolling a level 8+ character, and could afford Mithril full plate, it would totally edge out the ranger levels, but then again maybe I'll be fighting alot more evil outsiders.
arg :)
Playing in about 10 hours gotta get this ready, I'm gonna make up 2 sheets for each build so I can waffle hehe
I'm looking at 18 str, 15 dex, 12 con for my starting physical stats. That way I qualify for TWF right away. Maybe if i get a dex item, I will pump dex at my 2nd stat increase. Our DM has let us buy a +1 stat item for 1000gp
ALso Im considering both "Craft (Alchemy)" for poisons and etc as well as Handle animal, but can handle animal ever get you a decent non-ranger-companion animal? I know attack dogs and etc are nice, but at level 5, is there any decent uses for the skill for me?
Also, any suggestion on if I should go Ranger2/ftr1 or Fighter3?
I'm thinking fighter 3 for now as it will get you armor training. With 15 Dexterity you only have a +2 modifier going towards AC. With armor training 1, you could wear non-mithral magical full plate and still get your full modifier to AC.
I'm looking at 18 str, 15 dex, 12 con for my starting physical stats. That way I qualify for TWF right away. Maybe if i get a dex item, I will pump dex at my 2nd stat increase. Our DM has let us buy a +1 stat item for 1000gp
A magic stat item that only effects half the people of the world? How odd! There's a reason the designers only gave them even numbers.
The normal full plate will limit you later on if you do increase your Dex, but that can be fixed with a few more fighter levels or a different suit of armor when you have more time and money.
Also I'm considering both "Craft (Alchemy)" for poisons and etc as well as Handle animal, but can handle animal ever get you a decent non-ranger-companion animal? I know attack dogs and etc are nice, but at level 5, is there any decent uses for the skill for me?
Don't invest in craft (alchemy) and poisons unless you intend to take the Master Alchemist feat. They take too long to make otherwise.
You should talk to your GM about the animal possibilities before taking Handle Animal. You will never have a true animal companion, but there is no in-world reason why a fighter/rogue couldn't still try to tame a (normal) bear, or better yet, an owlbear! :P
So at 5th-level you could get +1 full plate, +2 shield, ring of protection +1, and an amulet of natural armor +1.
That's a final AC of 28 at 5th-level, putting you way ahead of the AC curve. You might even have money left over for other small things, such as masterwork longsword and some potions.
Also, any suggestion on if I should go Ranger2/ftr1 or Fighter3?I'm thinking fighter 3 for now as it will get you armor training. With 15 Dexterity you only have a +2 modifier going towards AC. With armor training 1, you could wear non-mithral magical full plate and still get your full modifier to AC.
I'm looking at 18 str, 15 dex, 12 con for my starting physical stats. That way I qualify for TWF right away. Maybe if i get a dex item, I will pump dex at my 2nd stat increase. Our DM has let us buy a +1 stat item for 1000gpA magic stat item that only effects half the people of the world? How odd! There's a reason the designers only gave them even numbers.
The normal full plate will limit you later on if you do increase your Dex, but that can be fixed with a few more fighter levels or a different suit of armor when you have more time and money.
Also I'm considering both "Craft (Alchemy)" for poisons and etc as well as Handle animal, but can handle animal ever get you a decent non-ranger-companion animal? I know attack dogs and etc are nice, but at level 5, is there any decent uses for the skill for me?Don't invest in craft (alchemy) and poisons unless you intend to take the Master Alchemist feat. They take too long to make otherwise.
You should talk to your GM about the animal possibilities before taking Handle Animal. You will never have a true animal companion, but there is no in-world reason why a fighter/rogue couldn't still try to tame a (normal) bear, or better yet, an owlbear! :P
So at 5th-level you could get +1 full plate, +2 shield, ring of protection +1, and an amulet of natural armor +1.
That's a final AC of 28 at 5th-level, putting you way ahead of the AC curve. You might even have money left over for other small things, such as masterwork longsword and some potions.
Thanks for the feedback!
I think the fighter is probably too good to ignore as the levels ramp up. I was looking forward to wand use and maybe the favored enemy, but getting hit less probably trumps that. With so much full BAB mixed in I think my to hit will be OK, but ill also be swinging at -4 all around for TWF and PA, although I wont need to PA after something is shaken.
I might stick to a breastplate until a level or 2 later just so I can keep doing scouting/scaling walls/etc that I've had to do in the past.
Although if I got the stealth enchant on full plate, id really only be facing the speed issue which may not be such a big deal
I guess I should mention that my goal with this guy is #1 to do significantly more melee damage than I was doing previously, and second, to be able to avoid getting clobbered instantly. So between damage and outrageous AC, id rather have great damage, and 'good' AC.
I think Im going to do F2 (or RNG2) and 3 rog to start, going F3 at level 6 or 7 most likely. The extra sneak dice is too tempting right now, I'll suffer with 20' move methinks. Also, my skills look pretty bad at f3/r2 compared to the ranger/rog build, so I'm concerned I may start failing stuff that was piece of cake before
Fighter will eventually get you full movement (level 7?) in non-mithril full plate. My suggestion on your defense is this:
Know your game master. If he likes dungeons and is generally willing to let you tank---ie the monsters don't make a terrific effort to get around you, a defensive build works pretty well, especially so if you do a lot of 10' wide corridor fights (if enlarged, you can interdict movement by yourself from anything but a bullrush or an overrun). TWF weapon and shield works ok with that build, although it really matures at levels 11 and 12, when you can get shield mastery and other +11 bab feats to lever up your damage to acceptable levels. Problem with the build is that it requires a really high dex as well as strength and con to make it work. But shield slam with greater bullrush in a corridor fight or close terrain fight can be a thing of beauty, especially since you can slam them into an obstacle and knock them prone, something you can't do with vanilla bullrush. Setting up AoO's in quantity for your fellow melees and rogues also radically boosts your effective damage output---and a little secret, it does it in a way that draws VERY low DM aggro from most GMs. In his mind, you're just a BSF who puts out relatively modest damage. One technique I've seen my players use to keep me from easily focus-firing their rogues when they're in melee is to use the shield tanks to move the line forward selectively with their shield slams and leave the rogue's 'designated victim' behind the line prone(and sometimes flanked as well). For example, in a 15' corridor, 2 tank, 1 rogue front:
|---|
|EEE|
|FF-|
|--R|
E=Evil guy, F=Fighter tank, R=slicey-dicey rogue | wallBoth fighters slam the evil guys in front of them with each hit of their shield. They take their 5' steps after they've pushed back the guy in front of them. Fighter 2 also slams the evil guy in front of the rogue horizontally into the wall, if he can with one of his iterative attacks. With weapon training and other hit...
edit: after some figuring, I think I can get the most out of being somewhat roguey, and decent ac by the following shopping list:
Fighter1/Rogue4
+2 dex belt (need this at 7 for ITWF) -- maybe wait for later on this, but might have more long-term use than a +1 amulet/ring
agile Breastplate + 1
+2 DW Heavy Shield
Ring of protection
I have 26AC, +3 dex for acro,etc, and no ACP on climb/jump
The plan I think is to move to mithral Full plate by level 7 when I will be fighter3.
This frontloads most of my skill points so I dont feel pain there, and I still qualify for all my feats at the same level.
Probably should wait on the dex belt...
Im pretty solid on this now. I just need to convince myself the Favored Enemy: Outsider (evil) isn't that good after all :P
Maybe I could throw in ranger1 to get the FE if it ends up coming up alot
OK. Ended up with my l5
Fighter1 Power attack
Rog1
Rog2 bleed, dazzling display
rog3
rog 4 Intimidating prowess, weapon training
still have combat trick free so Its like im up a feat at this point
will go to ftr2,ftr3 next 2 levels
Agile BP +1
heavy dw shield +2
prot +1 ring
+1 str item (dm ok'd)
masterwork longsword
silver armor spikes
random stuff.
Intimidate is +16, stealth etc isnt bad, AC is 24 and will shoot up once I can get some mithril full plate. Looking like this will be fun :)
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I believe his plan is to use intimidate to enable sneak attack.
Though my personal choice would be to choose a single class and stick with it. You can go pure fighter or pure rogue and make a good TWF. Grab up combat expertise and improved feint to get in sneak attacks in which case you'd need bluff not intimidate.
Pure fighter will hit more often thus pretty much equalizing damage dealt. If you go with a heavy two handed weapon build like weilding a bastard sword two-handed and make it keen you'll do tons of damage because of all the criticals you'll get.
TWF duel weild Rapiers and at BAB +8 pick up improved critical and it gets crazy.
Most of all...have fun with it. Optimising can be fun at times but it's not always. My favorite character is a human fighter. He's a spear+shield fighter. I even passed up a masterwork greataxe at first level because it just wasn't his style. Now he's level 4 (slow progression and poor work schedules) with a celestial adamantine spear +1. Good RPing landed me that. (Celestial adamantine is a houserule for us, it counts as good aligned for DR).
I'm all for flavor and thankfully so is the group I play with.
TWF duel weild Rapiers and at BAB +8 pick up improved critical and it gets crazy.
Crazy negatives, maybe. Rapiers aren't light weapons. Dual-wielding them would tank your to-hit bonus.
Now, if you're a Two-Weapon Warrior, you'd get to... at like level 11.
Build stuff
Comments:
* Don't trade in your unique class bonuses for feats. The Rogue talents are worth a lot more than weapon focus or bleeding attack-- which is even worse since you're a multiclass rogue. You're going to be doing 2 non-stacking bleed damage each sneak attack until level 7 or beyond. Slow Reactions could afford more utility than this-- a caster is threatened by a terrible monster, you sneak attack it and the caster can now cast spells freely. But, 2 damage once a round isn't anything to write home about. It's the main reason I avoid buying +1 weapons-- +1 damage just isn't enough to matter. Now, finding +1 weapons... that's fine.* I noticed you're not taking TWF anymore. Still planning on using it?
* Remember that you need Improved Shield Bash to not lose that 4 AC when you use your shield.
* If you're encumbered by your armor, you can't use acrobatics to tumble. Keep that in mind.
* What's your strength score looking like? With a 16 Dex I don't imagine it's 20 or around there.
* Right now your character has a low BAB-- +4 is fine, but then you're going to be power attacking for +2. Then TWF for +0. Then, the attack from Toothy is at a -5 bonus. Not sure if you'll be able to coast by some of the enemies in CoT with a very low bonus like that.
* On top of that, you want a large to-hit in full attacks because of Shatter Defenses-- you need to succeed that first attack to make them flat-footed to your other attacks in the round, and if you only hit them with your last attack, well, they're only flat-footed during AoOs until the beginning of your next turn, and you don't get SA dice.
I believe his plan is to use intimidate to enable sneak attack.Just out of curiosity, how does that happen ...
Dazzling Display -> Shatter Defenses (eventually)
Gotcha, three feats just to get the sneak attack. Seems kind of counter intuitive, or rather unreliable.Dazzling Display -> Shatter Defenses (eventually)I believe his plan is to use intimidate to enable sneak attack.Just out of curiosity, how does that happen ...
*shrugs* Weapon Focus is decent in a general sense. Dazzling Display is a non-magical debuff that potentially affects all enemies in range, and is nice RP flavor to boot. If you've already got those, why not get Shatter Defenses? It's another non-magic debuff, and the fact that it enables Sneak Attack is gravy.
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For reliable damage and good AC a simple fighter with a falchion or two-handed sword and decent armour is what I would go for. It's also really easy to put together.
If that's not defensive enough then sword and board fighter will do the job.
Oh, and don't play an orc, play a half-orc. They're better.
Is brute or heirloom weapon a CoT trait?
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So you wan't higher damage. You wan't a higher AC.
There are a few problems I see with your build.
1.) There is not a steady flow of power with this build.
2.) There is not a way to move past the restrictions of the build.
3.) With your definiton of what you wan't to do. This build fails on multiple levels.
Fixes.
1. Rangers do not need Dex to qualify for Two Weapon Figthing.
2. Sneek damgae is not improtant if you don't have a few other melees for flanking. useing Bluff to get sneek attack damage is worth less. Standard action to get one attack in next round. Unless you spend a feet to make it a move action. But then your spending 2 feets. Combat Expertise and Improved Fainte.
3. You need better weapons if you wan't your base damage to be higher.
4. Dex builds work if your primary thing is not doing damage. Thay work if your build is made for doing Sneek attack damage only.
Ok now that is out of the way. You want a build that works well for what it's made for. What are you using for stat points buy or rolled. and if your using rolled what did you roll. I have made alot of failed builds. They look good on paper but just don't work.
My rules of Thum
1. Prmit bounes are better. Bounes that have restrictions are worth +4 or more. Only if it is somthing you know you will use at least one time every game seson or its not worth it.
2. Stat Points are more valuble then a +1 bounes. Raising a stat just to make you better at a skill or group of skills is worthless. You will get high skills just by puting points in to them. You will notice a difrence at lower level but past level 5 it won't realy matter. Don't wast stat poitns on stuff thats not critical.
3. Con is never a dump stat. I don't care what your playing.
4. Makeing built in weakness to a charter is not a bad thing. Just don't remind the DM or let the other players know.
Here's how I figure what is a decent AC for one's level. Monster Creation Guidelines. One of the most useful tables for optimization, as many of the mechanisms regarding monster balancing are laid threadbare. The target number should be, for a front-line "tank" type, 16+the number in the High Attack column. For example level 1=17 5=26 10=34 15=40 etc. That way something making a melee attack has a 75% chance of missing your AC, of your approximate even level of challenge. Skirmishers (or archers) should look for about 11+ that same number as part of their playstyle involves avoiding attacks to begin with by using stick and move tactics. Wizards might behoove themselves with 6+that number but really after about level 3 you should just try to go first and cast invis/mirror image/blur, etc.
Now the problem with these numbers is that while your target number increases more or less predictably the amount of money needed to achieve that number increases much quicker. Specifically around level 15 or so you will need to, as a front-liner, spend close to all of your resources on defense, and this is well past the point where you were any credible threat to your enemies.
As a fighter, if you don't have reliable caster buffs from teammates, it's likely better to invest in potions of Fly and Blur once you hit about 30 AC.
My monk was doing OK, but my build was not great and I realize that going with monk you end up with a huge gold disadvantage, and my build was not super great.
Wait what? Where do you get this odd idea?
Those guidelines are heavily lowballed and are in no way consistent with the opposition you face. Only follow them if you want to be slaughtered by things it says you'll do fine against.
Yeah, 15 plus level will get you killed.
Those guidelines are heavily lowballed and are in no way consistent with the opposition you face. Only follow them if you want to be slaughtered by things it says you'll do fine against.
Are you talking about the designer's own guidelines, which the PF bestiary pretty closely follows? If so you should note that there's not a whole lot in the whole Beestiary which diverts from that chart by more than +2 or so. You yourself said high 20s by level 5 and I said bare minimum 26. In what way is being hit 25% of the time by physical attacks being slaughtered?
The guidelines I use are not "have this AC to never get hit" it's "have this AC to be able to effectively mitigate damage enough to stay toe to toe, and still have the money necessary to hurt it."
Not 15+ level, 16+the High Attack column on that chart, or more like 16+twice your level.
For reliable damage and good AC a simple fighter with a falchion or two-handed sword and decent armour is what I would go for. It's also really easy to put together.
If that's not defensive enough then sword and board fighter will do the job.
Oh, and don't play an orc, play a half-orc. They're better.
Is brute or heirloom weapon a CoT trait?
Ok. Thanks for all the replies folks.
Let me try to clear this up :P
As it stands: We have a Ranger, Dragonfire Adept, and Me that usually get into melee combat range. The ranger is a sword/shield ranger with a heavy shield that TWF's (at -4/-4) with light armor. So he is very dicey in combat.
The dragonfire adept has good AC and very good HP.
I almost always (sofar at level 5, just finished the 'Knot in CoT) am flanking and get sneak attack damage.
Right now my character is a Monk2/Rogue3, and I know I can accomplish what I'm doing with him better with other characters.
While lots of stealth actually was helpful in me getting free heavy damage sneaks off in the last dungeon, in general its not been super useful for us. Climb/Jump has been but I know that gets negated at later levels. I'm pretty sure our DFA can fly at level 5 so maybe thats not a big deal just yet. But theres been plenty of situations where I've had to scale a wall, take out the guy on top, and drop a rope down for the party or etc. I'll obviously be doing less of that, and that might not matter.
Anwyays, the data as I understand it:
a)I feel we lately have very good tactical positioning, and I will be sneak attacking at least 75% of the time.
b) The plan in my above build was to (still TWFing, armor spikes and longsword, as far as I understand RAW this works) power attack and have curmudgon (sp?) smash kick off free intimidates bundled with the rogue alternate "Thug" template, to have extra shaken/frightened condition. Level 5 my intimidate bonus was +16. I care about being able to get behind enemies and do tons of damage more than the rest. A friend showed me the toothy, and doing calcs on anydice using AC spread of 19..23 it added about 13 avg DPR.
c) Yeah, it seems like with -2PA and -2 TWF my attack rating won't be as high, but from the numbers i ran, a 2hander/toothy is going to do like 45DPR , and the 5 sneak attacks is going to be significantly higher.
d) I looked at going with a 2hander build, and without rage/mutagen wasn't sure how to get enough damage to start closing the gap with a rogue-type build
e) Shatter defenses was mostly for me to be able to more reliably hit with the -5 attacks. Since my intimidate bonus is so high, I could try leading with dazzling display then get extra attacks against flat footed?
I talked to the party and theyre under the agreement that the stealth isnt the biggest deal, because we really need the extra combat power. Our DFA does tons of damage, our cleric is good, and we have a decent sorc, its just that the ranger hits occasionally for d6 and dies fast. I actually rolled really really well for hp(all 7 and 8) on my monk/rog so he is pretty survivable.
f) Looking at doing damage primarily, while (using level 5 for example) staying in the 22-24+ AC range. I'd love to stay at 20+CL ac, and am definately open to suggestions on this stuff.
Wait what? Where do you get this odd idea?
Well, my original build and what ended up were very different. We originally had a rogue, then didn't so I ended up filling that role and taking more rogue levels.
Anyways to answer more questions:
a) We're using standard point-buy, 15 points I think
b) Regarding a few posts back, My intimidates will be coming from power attack/cornugon smash and I had selected the "Thug" APG Rogue template which lets you also frighten with it, and sacrafice a 1d6 to sicken. I figure this would help reduce damage we take.
Wait what? Where do you get this odd idea?
Well, my original build and what ended up were very different. We originally had a rogue, then didn't so I ended up filling that rogue and taking more rogue levels.
Anyways to answer more questions:
a) We're using standard point-buy, 15 points I think
b) Regarding a few posts back, My intimidates will be coming from power attack/cornugon smash and I had selected the "Thug" APG Rogue template which lets you also frighten with it, and sacrafice a 1d6 to sicken. I figure this would help reduce damage we take.
I was asking about the "gold disadvantage" -- that part didn't make sense to me. Monk's don't have a "gold disadvantage".
I was asking about the "gold disadvantage" -- that part didn't make sense to me. Monk's don't have a "gold disadvantage".
Insofar that you need to spend tons of cash on amulet of might fists and etc to get the same effects you can get from weapons. As I was a monk/rogue, economically one could see where you'd get tons better results with weapons/light armor for the same GP amounts.
The campaign is going to go 1-13ish as far as I understand.
I was asking about the "gold disadvantage" -- that part didn't make sense to me. Monk's don't have a "gold disadvantage".Insofar that you need to spend tons of cash on amulet of might fists and etc to get the same effects you can get from weapons. As I was a monk/rogue, economically one could see where you'd get tons better results with weapons/light armor for the same GP amounts.
The campaign is going to go 1-13ish as far as I understand.
Might I suggest just using a temple sword until about -- level 8? Or just some brass knuckles?
The temple sword will do more damage and have a better critical range until level 8, and the brass knuckles do unarmed strike damage with the ability to flurry. Both cost less than an amulet of the mighty fist and give all the same effects and then some.
I was asking about the "gold disadvantage" -- that part didn't make sense to me. Monk's don't have a "gold disadvantage".Insofar that you need to spend tons of cash on amulet of might fists and etc to get the same effects you can get from weapons. As I was a monk/rogue, economically one could see where you'd get tons better results with weapons/light armor for the same GP amounts.
The campaign is going to go 1-13ish as far as I understand.
Might I suggest just using a temple sword until about -- level 8? Or just some brass knuckles?
The temple sword will do more damage and have a better critical range until level 8, and the brass knuckles do unarmed strike damage with the ability to flurry. Both cost less than an amulet of the mighty fist and give all the same effects and then some.
So, Me and my DM discussed the brass knuckles bit. Some of the people I talked to are under the impression that they come as a set, ala gauntlets.
As I understand it, it'd actually be significantly cheaper to buy brass knuckles because with flurry you can make all of your attacks with one hand, knee, whatever, so you'd buy 1 brass knuckle set and all of your attacks would be modified, this is correct right?
Alternatively you could have a set of one CI and one silver, no?
I went and took weapon focus (unarmed) before any of us had seen the APG sadly so theres a bit of a wasted feat, but considering MW knuckles have the same effect, oh well.
At any rate, It still seems I could make a better combat rogue by doing Ftr1-3/RogueX or Ranger2/RogueX .
I guess at the end of the day, thats what I was trying to make, a more combat-capable rogue.
With a mithral BP or something, most rogue skills are going to be fine, and really as we advance in levels, dont climb/jump/etc start to get marginalized by flying and etc?
The current char sheet that sits infront of me is
CL1 Fighter1
CL2 Rogue(thug) 1
CL3 Rogue 2
CL4 Rogue 3
CL5 Rogue 4
Without rattling off everything
Str is 19(looking at buying str booster asap)
Dex is 15 (For TWF)
Con 12
int/wis standard, bought down cha
Feats include:
Power attack, TWF, Focus, Intimidating Prowess, Dazzling Display, Bleeding attack (looking into alternates posted above)
Next 2 levels will bring ITWF and Cornugon Smash, with the idea of everytime I hit with a PA, I'll be doing shaken for multiple rounds, or free frightens on enemies, ala APG thug alternate.
I am also not a fan of multi classing.
Heck, I dont even like dipping into prestige classes very much.
It was the rogue levels that slowed you down man :P
Aha. I found the build that inspired me trying to do this. Was wanting to put in fighter levels to help boost the power.
This is from http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/helpMeBuildAGreatCombatRogue&page=1
Brute Half-Orc Rogue
(Start with at least 18 STR)Trait-
Brute:You have spent long hours working for a crime lord, either as a low-level enforcer or as a guard or bouncer. You’re adept at frightening away people.
Benefit: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Intimidate checks.(Adds to your racial+2)Heirloom Weapon: Benefit: This heirloom weapon is of masterwork quality (but you pay only the standard cost at character creation). You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon and are considered proficient with that specific weapon (but not other weapons of that type) even if you do not have the required proficiencies.
Use the following (you have 6 feats to pick)
1SA 1d6, Trapfinding, Intimidating Prowess
2Wpn Fcs: Falchion, Evasion
3Dazzling Display, SA 2d6, Trap Sense +1
4Conrugan Smash, Uncanny Dodge
5Power Attack, SA 3d6
6Resiliancy, Trap Sense +2
7Feat, SA 4d6
8Bleeding Attack, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9Shatter Defences, SA 5d6, Trap Sense +3
10Crippling Strike
11Feat, SA 6d6
12Feat, trap sense +4
13Feat, SA 7d6
14Oppourtunist
15Feat, SA 8d6, Trap Sense +5
16Defensive Roll
17 Feat, SA 9d6
18Slippery Mind, Trap Sense +6
19Feat, SA 10d6
20Skill mastery, Master Strike
Obviously this build has cornugan at 4 instead of 6, os that would need to be fixed, but I like it, alot. Just imagine it can be done better/more if dipping some fighter or etc
Heirloom Weapon: Benefit: This heirloom weapon is of masterwork quality (but you pay only the standard cost at character creation). You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon and are considered proficient with that specific weapon (but not other weapons of that type) even if you do not have the required proficiencies.
So in your case, you'd have heirloom...fists? :)
[about Pubert]
Gomez: He has my father's eyes.
Morticia: Gomez, take those out of his mouth.
Heirloom Weapon: Benefit: This heirloom weapon is of masterwork quality (but you pay only the standard cost at character creation). You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon and are considered proficient with that specific weapon (but not other weapons of that type) even if you do not have the required proficiencies.So in your case, you'd have heirloom...fists? :)
[about Pubert]
Gomez: He has my father's eyes.
Morticia: Gomez, take those out of his mouth.
With the quoted build it was using a falchion. For me It'd be falchion/greatsword/longsword depending
If you want TWF and defense, I suggest looking at Fighter (all in) and reading up on the shield feats. You do it right, you can dish out lots of attacks while still utilizing your shield AC.
BTW - this is not an opinion based on pure speculation; I recently completed Second Darkness with a sociopath shield Fighter. Once a couple of levels of Armor Training kicked in, he became near unhittable at times.
OK
So, I realized there was a error in my AnyDice math. Yeah, the TWF with PA just does not work out. A 2handed/bite rogue was doing higher average damage against average AC(18-22 spread at level 5).
So yes, I think I will use Falchion/Bite or Greatsword/Bite (almost want to go dwarf at this point). I will probably sink my TWF/ITWF feats into orc hide and dodge to keep my AC roughly the same.
But yeah, oops :)
So I'm going to revise a little bit and NOT take TWF.
I'll have 3 attacks as soon as I have 6AB, but the damage from PA, the extra AB, makes up for the extra 2 attacks, using a sample AC of 18-22 ( counting flanking bonus for these calcs, so effectively 20-24).
If I use a Bastard Sword 1 handed I can take focus (bastard sword) and still be able to use one 2handed if my heirloom Bastard sword goes away.
This is approximately average 6DPR less than Greatsword (35 vs 29), BUT with shield use I could get the following 2 feats for essentially free:
Furious Focus/Dreadful Carnage.
I'll post my updated build and does anyone have suggestions for what to spend 2 extra feats on for a Power-Attacking non TWF orc with Dazzling Display/Cornugon Smash/Shatter Defenses chain?
Cleave isn't bad. Skill focus wouldn't hurt.
Blind fight is always nice, and improved initiative is good.
Nimble moves and acrobatic step are favorites.
You could go Mobile Figther archtype with a sword and board build. somethinfg like:
Traits:
Family heirloom (Spiked Heavy Shield, your main weapon)
Reactionary
Feats:
1.- TWF, Improved Sheild bash, WF(Spiked Heavy Sheild)
2.- Power Attack
3.- Nimble Moves
4.- Double Slice
5.- Weapon Specialization (Haevy Spiked Shield)
Stats:
STR 18 13 +1 boost
DEX 18 10 +2 racial
CON 12 2
INT 7 -4
WIS 13 3
CHA 7 -4
Equipment:
4000gps +1 Bashing Heavy Sheild
2300gps +1 Kukri
2000gps Ring of deflection +1
1250gps +1 Chainshirt
1000gps Cloack of resstance +1
Attack:
+1 Bashing Heavy Sheild +10* 2d6 +7* /x2 and
+1 Kukri +8* d4 +5* 18-20/x2 or
+1 Bashing Heavy Sheild +12* 2d6 +7* /x2
*+1 if moved at least 5 foot
Armor Class:
AC 23* (10 +4 dex +5 Armor +3 Sheild +1 Deflection)
Th 15* (10 +4 dex +1 Deflection)
FF 19 (10 +5 Armor +3 Sheild +1 Deflection)
*+1 if moved at least 5 foot
Humbly,
Yawar