If you lose initiative to a caster and you dont have the proper defenses there are a lot of ways in which you can be hosed. This little combo is the least of your worries.
From a pragmatic perspective, I agree; however, I don't think "There's too much broken stuff, so we shouldn't try to address any of it" is a good policy even if it is basically true.
Aren't Wizards like the hardest class to get a jump on thanks to their ridiculous spells?
Getting the jump on a wizard is actually pretty easy. It's not like Perception is a class skill or anything. Now, jumping them to GOOD EFFECT is another matter entirely.
Long term buffs and contingencies can really keep you from doing well, even when you do jump them.
(there's a lot more ways to pump CL than to pump dispel checks. Dispel checks also cap out at +20, whereas CL keep on going up)
Hah. Dispel checks ARE caster level checks. Read the rules. And no, they are not capped at 20.
Aren't Wizards like the hardest class to get a jump on thanks to their ridiculous spells?
Diviners are basically impossible to beat in initiative, but frankly the Diviner specialist ability is absurdly broken at high levels and shouldn't be used as a measuring stick for anything. No other wizards get any special initiative boosts in Pathfinder (as there's no nerveskitter or elven wizard substitution level for a hummingbird familiar for +8 init in Pathfinder).
(there's a lot more ways to pump CL than to pump dispel checks. Dispel checks also cap out at +20, whereas CL keep on going up)Hah. Dispel checks ARE caster level checks. Read the rules. And no, they are not capped at 20.
Aren't Wizards like the hardest class to get a jump on thanks to their ridiculous spells?Diviners are basically impossible to beat in initiative, but frankly the Diviner specialist ability is absurdly broken at high levels and shouldn't be used as a measuring stick for anything. No other wizards get any special initiative boosts in Pathfinder (as there's no nerveskitter or elven wizard substitution level for a hummingbird familiar for +8 init in Pathfinder).
Hmm you're right about not being capped at 20. Dispelling got a bit better in PF. This is a good thing.
Still, you are not guaranteed to succeed, and you still only have one chance to dispel. Besides, how do you *which* target to dispel? Multiple characters in the party can wear robes. The wizard can even wear armor without worry of arcane spell failure chance with the right now.
And thanks to Contingency (and Foresight once level 17 rolls around) and things like Rings of Counterspell, it's harder yet.
Maybe your players regularly defeat enemy casters with Mindblank and improved Invis, but I know my players would be complaining a lot.
Nah, I was just saying that your 'invincible wizard' going off on his own would get himself killed.
I don't know, I've seen mid+ level wizards maverick off without the rest of the party a lot of times in a lot of different campaigns with a lot of different DMs across several editions of the game, but I can't remember any of them dying.
Once that train gets rolling, in the hands of a player who knows how to use it, there's not much stopping it.
Barring terrain, you still have no effective ways of finding the wizard's square. Glitterdust and Dispels DO NOT MATTER if you can't land the spell in the right area.Conveniently ignoring my point from yesterday, I see.
The dispel certainly does matter because it's landing on round one before the wizard goes invisible, thus removing mind blank, thus removing the entire point of this whinefest.
So you're going to be beat the wizard's initiative for sure? You're also going to succeed on your dispel check for sure? (there's a lot more ways to pump CL than to pump dispel checks. Dispel checks also cap out at +20, whereas CL keep on going up)
Aren't Wizards like the hardest class to get a jump on thanks to their ridiculous spells?
That +20 limit was 3.5. The formula is d20+caster level for both version of the spell. Any DM can pump caster levels if needed also.
i)Glitterdust with a very good perception check,ii)Invisibility Purge, iii)Arcane Sight, iv)Greater Dispel Magic v) Something i didnt find out or thought of in these 5 minutes i wrote this post
i) Glitterdust (All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades. Each round at the end of their turn blinded creatures may attempt new saving throws to end the blindness effect. Any creature covered by the dust takes a -40 penalty on Stealth checks.)
So the mage is outlined so visible to all
ii)Invisibility Purge (You surround yourself with a sphere of power with a radius of 5 feet per caster level that negates all forms of invisibility.Anything invisible becomes visible while in the area.)
So a 10 lvl priest has 50ft radius of invisibility purge. Pretty good
iii)Arcane Sight {requires holding,wearing or wielding a magical item} (This spell makes your eyes glow blue and allows you to see magical auras within 120 feet of you. The effect is similar to that of a detect magic spell, but arcane sight does not require concentration and discerns aura location and power more quickly.)
It does not gather information so it bypasses Mind Blank even if it is Divination spell
iv) Greater Dispel Magic (This spell functions like dispel magic, except that it can end more than one spell on a target and it can be used to target multiple creatures.Area Dispel: When greater dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot-radius burst. Roll one dispel check and apply that check to each creature in the area, as if targeted by dispel magic. For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, apply the dispel check as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.)
One of my favorite spell in the game, one of the best utility spells.
v) Yes there are always some abilities, feats, skills, powers, traits,spells or things under the right circumstances that counter something else that someone thought of it to be "OMFG thats superf$#%ingcool OP combo/ability "
Last but not least think that these spells are all much lower lvl than mind blank exept Gr.Dispel, and by the time you can cast an 8 lvl spell what disallows a hostile mage to do so ?
If you lose initiative to a caster and you dont have the proper defenses there are a lot of ways in which you can be hosed. This little combo is the least of your worries.From a pragmatic perspective, I agree; however, I don't think "There's too much broken stuff, so we shouldn't try to address any of it" is a good policy even if it is basically true.
I was just countering the other post, and broken is a bad word to use. As I always say "broken for my group" is better. To me something is not broken unless 99% of DM's can't deal with it. If I come to the boards with an issue, and Zurai and RD have a solution, and I don't then the tactic is not universally broken. It is just broken for my group at least until someone tells me how to handle it. There are also certain spells that are standard. Dispel Magic is one of them. Being able to counter flying and hiding(magical or mundane) enemies is another. If you come into my games and the melee bruiser has no defense against mind-affecting things, don't be surprised when he is trying to cleave into the party casters.
(there's a lot more ways to pump CL than to pump dispel checks. Dispel checks also cap out at +20, whereas CL keep on going up)Hah. Dispel checks ARE caster level checks. Read the rules. And no, they are not capped at 20.
Aren't Wizards like the hardest class to get a jump on thanks to their ridiculous spells?Diviners are basically impossible to beat in initiative, but frankly the Diviner specialist ability is absurdly broken at high levels and shouldn't be used as a measuring stick for anything. No other wizards get any special initiative boosts in Pathfinder (as there's no nerveskitter or elven wizard substitution level for a hummingbird familiar for +8 init in Pathfinder).Hmm you're right about not being capped at 20. Dispelling got a bit better in PF. This is a good thing.
Still, you are not guaranteed to succeed, and you still only have one chance to dispel. Besides, how do you *which* target to dispel? Multiple characters in the party can wear robes. The wizard can even wear armor without worry of arcane spell failure chance with the right now.
And thanks to Contingency (and Foresight once level 17 rolls around) and things like Rings of Counterspell, it's harder yet.
Maybe your players regularly defeat enemy casters with Mindblank and improved Invis, but I know my players would be complaining a lot.
Once again spellcraft works for knowing who did what. The caster wont be casting greater invis until combat starts so we already know he is around. If a spell goes off, and the visible guys in robes are twiddling their thumbs then blame the invisible guy. The other thing is if I can't see the wizard I can still hear him. My players would not complain about it. They would make knowledge arcana checks to know which spells can make this combo work. I only have to kick(use new tactic) my players once for them to learn. The newest guy was feared out of a combat for 12 rounds. He now pumps his will saves up.
Nah, I was just saying that your 'invincible wizard' going off on his own would get himself killed.
I don't know, I've seen mid+ level wizards maverick off without the rest of the party a lot of times in a lot of different campaigns with a lot of different DMs across several editions of the game, but I can't remember any of them dying.
Once that train gets rolling, in the hands of a player who knows how to use it, there's not much stopping it.
I have never seen a split party not suffer for it. He brings that train into my station and I can derail it quickly.
But by the time you spellcraft the spell, the spell has gone off and he is now Greater Invisibled. You can't figure out who is the real caster in the Surprise Round or Round 1 effectively is what I'm saying.
Wild captain: All of those points have already been addressed. Did you read the rest of the thread? Widened Invis Purge is the only spell with a good chance of working. The others require too precise of targeting (remember -1 Perception per 10 ft) or plain won't work. By RAW Arcane sight doesn't work when the target has Mindblank on. And I'm saying that the RAW is pretty stupid and I would personally not allow Mindblank + Greater Invisibbility to overcome See Invis, Arcane Sight, True Seeing, Detect Magic, etc.
But RAW, it's all cool.
It starts with the wizard 'mavericking off' without the rest of the party. It's actually not all that hard to derail that train of yours.
In theory, but in 20some years of gaming I've never seen it happen. Clearly your mileage varies.
But by the time you spellcraft the spell, the spell has gone off and he is now Greater Invisibled. You can't figure out who is the real caster in the Surprise Round or Round 1 effectively is what I'm saying.
Wild captain: All of those points have already been addressed. Did you read the rest of the thread? Widened Invis Purge is the only spell with a good chance of working. The others require too precise of targeting (remember -1 Perception per 10 ft) or plain won't work. By RAW Arcane sight doesn't work when the target has Mindblank on. And I'm saying that the RAW is pretty stupid and I would personally not allow Mindblank + Greater Invisibbility to overcome See Invis, Arcane Sight, True Seeing, Detect Magic, etc.
But RAW, it's all cool.
The point of spellcraft is to know what spell he is casting, not to stop it. I now know Mr.Wizard is somewhere in the room, and he can attack to his heart's content if nothing is done about it. If I see you(wizard) cast then I know you(wizard) cast the spell. Wizards dont generally have a great perception. By the time he can see me I can see him. That means I will see him before he cast the spell so at best he wins initiative, and gets the spell off. If I can see the spell then I can spellcraft it. I don't know about the mindblank yet, but once I try to do see invis, and it fails, it should take nothing more than a knowledge arcana check to know which spell is foiling the see invis. As a free action I past this info along to caster number 2. The cleric or druid then readies an action to do what is needed to bring the caster back into visibility mode. Could be invisibilty purge, greater dispel magic, faerie fire, or whatever else I can think of. At best the wizard gets one free round. The only way the wizard gets a surprise round is if the bad guys are outside in a wide open area having a picnic, and he know exactly where they are so he cast both spells outside of combat. That is really an unlikely scenario. If Mr.BBEG had his bad guys disappearing setting the heros up even if it means sacrificing a few minions is not an issue. He scries on his minion, assuming it can't get way so either way he knows what is up. Legend Lore also works, along with other divination spells. Figuring out the tactic is not rocket science and neither is defeating it. It is one of those things that works only as long as the DM allows it too, even without metagaming.
In theory, but in 20some years of gaming I've never seen it happen. Clearly your mileage varies.
It starts with the wizard 'mavericking off' without the rest of the party. It's actually not all that hard to derail that train of yours.
That is because the DM was being nice. At the very least having a higher level wizard handle the PC wizard would have taken care of it.
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In the case of multiple flying wizards, I find that Sleet Storm works wonders. Control Winds is fun, too. And frankly, you wingless apes are terrible at flying, especially with Overland Flight. You're slow, you're clumsy, you're frail and you're weak, and although the Fly spell at least gives you a little maneuverability, you're not likely to have it already cast on you.
Figuring out what the wizard is doing is not the hard part, and I never implied it should be. It's countering it that's hard except in situations where the terrain is extremely cramped. Otherwise good luck getting the wizard with your effects. How the heck are you going to find what 20ft area the wizard is in (the wizard will likely use his move action to go move out of the area he was in)? After all, if you're a wizard or sorcerer, you don't have great Perception either.
Figuring out what the wizard is doing is not the hard part, and I never implied it should be. It's countering it that's hard except in situations where the terrain is extremely cramped. Otherwise good luck getting the wizard with your effects. How the heck are you going to find what 20ft area the wizard is in (the wizard will likely use his move action to go move out of the area he was in)? After all, if you're a wizard or sorcerer, you don't have great Perception either.
Most fights do have limited area however, and you can't really expect a fringe case of wide open ground to prove a point. Once again we are talking about CR 16 encounters. There is not a monster at that level that can't escape and one dumb enough to stick around for an unwinnable fight if it is caught outside. Even the loser on my list, the horned devil can teleport away, and it has the worst options of all the CR 16 monsters against this tactic.
Most fights are within 60 feet or closer, normally closer is the norm. There is no surprise round. You open the door, and bad guys are there. The opposing caster does not have to find the wizard. The rogue or other "radar" can do that, and Mr.Wizard does not have to be found on round 1. As I said before ready an action for round 2. When you hearing the casting throw the spell in that direction. Just make sure you word it(the ready action) correctly.
Had a wizard do the fly/invisible thing once. Always ahead of the party telling them how slow they were. Once he ran into an dead magic area (this is Forgotten Realms) inside the entrance to a dread linnorms lair, that had been stratigically placed over a pit of acid, he wasn't laughing so much anymore. By the time the rest of the party got to the pit, there weren't even bones left.
Had a wizard do the fly/invisible thing once. Always ahead of the party telling them how slow they were. Once he ran into an dead magic area (this is Forgotten Realms) inside the entrance to a dread linnorms lair, that had been stratigically placed over a pit of acid, he wasn't laughing so much anymore. By the time the rest of the party got to the pit, there weren't even bones left.
Classic. ^_^
Whenever I hear of an "unbeatable combo" that "breaks" the game, it's always put forth in a vacuum.
Most magical worlds have Arcane traditions that go back for millennia, if not longer. Any combination of commonly (read: not custom) spells will have been discussed, analyzed, dissected, and countered by, literally, the greatest minds of hundreds, if not thousands, of generations.
Countering high level magicks may be difficult, but it isn't impossible, or even unlikely. Mindblank + Imp. Invisibility is a potent combination. But there's a app for that, I guarantee it, even if it consists of: "Get the Hades out of there, and come back with the following spells prepared." If 10-12th level characters don't have a plan in place for dealing with power arcanists, then they deserve whatever fate befalls them.
Magical worlds exist. High level magicks exist. You can either throw up you hands and say, "One is incompatible with the other," or you can figure out how the two can co-exist.
Is there a way to detect Dead Magic Zones? Normally, not allowing some sort of perception-type check is bad form.
cast magic in em. They look normal there is nothing to check.
Is there a way to detect Dead Magic Zones? Normally, not allowing some sort of perception-type check is bad form.
I think one of the Forgotten Realms books said something about spellcasters being able to sense them automatically once they cross the divide. I'll see if I can find the reference.
EDIT: Page 56 of the v3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide has it. In short, a spellcaster feels uneasy and uncomfortable in a dead magic zone. Such a person can spend a move action to note the exact boundary of a dead magic zone. Using detect magic from outside the zone can also allow a person to determine its boundaries.
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If you want to play around with the wording of the magic, Mindblank only allows you to be protected from spells that tell anything about the caster. True seeing lets you see objects as they really are.
Sure you can't see the guy wearing the gear, but you can see all his gear just fine. It's cheesy but since the wording specifically talks about the target being mind blanked then I don't see why not. "I don't want to know about the wizard, I want to know about his staff/wand/ring, that's why I'm using true seeing". Of course the wizards rule everything crowd will be all over this like white on rice.
Additionally, as stated earlier, this guys going to be glowing like a neon light with defensive auras and magical gear lighting him up (unless the rule about multple auras overlapping doesn't cause the magic glow like it used to).
This combination is pretty powerful, as it should be for high level magic. However it's pretty powerful in a very small number of encounters that you'll be having at high levels. I think the OP has a good combo, and I'd certainly let my players be rewarded occasionally for using it, but situational modifiers make the combo not so flash in plenty of cases. You still remain relatively undetectable at long distance, but pretty much innefective at combat since to remain undetectable you have to stay at long distance.for many situations that makes it useless.
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"Rocks fall, you die." was all I heard.Are you saying an ancient dragon that has to deal with things trying to steal it's not insubstantial treasure isn't going to prepare a SIMPLE defense like this?
Because that's what I heard you saying.
I give a damn what the background of it was. If the DM went 'you're flying along and suddenly your flying cuts out, and you fall right into a pool of acid and die' I would ask him why he wasted so much breath when 'rocks fall, you die' is so much shorter.
"Rocks fall, you die." was all I heard.
That's pretty much where I'm at.
"High level wizards in the hands of smart players aren't one-man engines of destruction because the DM can always just tell them they died." isn't a great counter-argument.
If you don't write an adventure expecting the wizard to do that and plan specifically to beat it, and if you don't change things on the fly to make things harder for him, he will blow through or ignore many kinds of encounters that could pose some danger to the full party, or he will probably live to tell the tale.
I give a damn what the background of it was. If the DM went 'you're flying along and suddenly your flying cuts out, and you fall right into a pool of acid and die' I would ask him why he wasted so much breath when 'rocks fall, you die' is so much shorter."Rocks fall, you die." was all I heard.Are you saying an ancient dragon that has to deal with things trying to steal it's not insubstantial treasure isn't going to prepare a SIMPLE defense like this?
Because that's what I heard you saying.
It wasn't so quick actually, I gave him a reflex save to catch the other side or the pit, but he failed it. He had two rounds as I recall before he died (the party heard him screaming, so did the dread linnorm) he tried to dimension door out but it's very difficult to get a spell off with that kind of continuing damage. He then tried to climb out the second round but failed (which I described as due to the flesh sloughing off his hands). By the third round he was very dead which was when the party got there.
I suppose that "rocks fall you die" is your equivilent to my current DM's "a 50 ton canary falls on you". But I NEVER go out of my way to kill a PC. They're quite good at killing themselves without any help from me.
Much better. Honestly, if he was dumb enough to just fly over a pit of acid, it was his own fault.
How is that dumb? A pit of acid is no threat to anyone when they can fly over it.
It's like calling someone dumb for flying over the ground because it might kill them. Um, no it can't. Not even a dispel will accomplish that if they aren't in the stratosphere.
Total immersion in acid is what...10d6 per round? Can't have been very high level. Oh well, the party has diamond dust for a reason.
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It's like calling someone dumb for flying over the ground because it might kill them. Um, no it can't. Not even a dispel will accomplish that if they aren't in the stratosphere.
But a dispel WILL kill you if you're flying over a pit of acid. So they are different. By flying over a pit of acid with nobody else around to help you (should the worst happen), one is being careless. Careless gets characters dead. Some people mind this more than others.
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Much better. Honestly, if he was dumb enough to just fly over a pit of acid, it was his own fault.How is that dumb? A pit of acid is no threat to anyone when they can fly over it.
It's like calling someone dumb for flying over the ground because it might kill them. Um, no it can't. Not even a dispel will accomplish that if they aren't in the stratosphere.
Because you never approach a hazard by yourself and without investigating it. Someone put a trap there, and the best way to improve an obvious trap is to pair it with an unobvious one.
It's like calling someone dumb for flying over the ground because it might kill them. Um, no it can't. Not even a dispel will accomplish that if they aren't in the stratosphere.But a dispel WILL kill you if you're flying over a pit of acid. So they are different. By flying over a pit of acid with nobody else around to help you (should the worst happen), one is being careless. Careless gets characters dead. Some people mind this more than others.
I just don't see how one can consider it careless. If anything, by flying, I would argue that he was being cautious.
It's not like people EXPECT there to be an antimagic field. If they did, your assertion of carelessness would be correct AND the secondary trap that was the AMF would be fairly worthless as far as traps go.
I like to think the character had a sensible plan that didn't work out. That's bad luck, not carelessness.
It's upsetting me more and more how this community is so quick to call players careless, dumb, or any other negative terms simply for ADVENTURING NORMALLY.
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Well, death happens when you adventure normally. I get upset when people are quick to say that any setback to the character (up to and including death) is a setback to the game. It isn't. The game goes on, and sometimes you die.
You die less when you're really careful.
You die more when you don't think.
And man, I do a lot of things every session that are thoughtless! I'm a smart person and a smart player, but I can be very thoughtless.
Because you never approach a hazard by yourself and without investigating it. Someone put a trap there, and the best way to improve an obvious trap is to pair it with an unobvious one.Much better. Honestly, if he was dumb enough to just fly over a pit of acid, it was his own fault.How is that dumb? A pit of acid is no threat to anyone when they can fly over it.
It's like calling someone dumb for flying over the ground because it might kill them. Um, no it can't. Not even a dispel will accomplish that if they aren't in the stratosphere.
This.
There are two ways to conceal a trap. One is to make it difficult to see (concealment), the other is to distract attention from it (misdirection). If an obvious trap is present, then players should really start looking for the "real" trap.
Putting yourself so far a head of the party that they can't get to you in case you need help is an extremely risky, bordering on foolish, thing to do. Not to mention a PITA for everyone involved.
And, again, flying + invisible opponents are relatively common in magical societies. Those who think they might draw the attention of creatures with such abilities would take great pains to counter them. No rocks falling here. Just a power drunk wizard with an incautious player.