|
Okay, I'm at my wit's end. I've been playing with the same bunch for almost 30 years. Two of the players are really having a tough time processing the complexity of the rules. These two were never the quickest in the group (They never grasped THAC0), but now their lack of "getting it" is really draining the fun out of game sessions. Every turn grinds to a halt while they try to remember the mechanics of whatever it is they want to do.
Actual conversation from last week:
Old Guy: "Now do I roll a 20-sided dice?"
Me: "Yes. That's pretty much Dnd 101."
OG: "Well, I just wanted to check." (Rolls dice)
Another player: "Okay. You've just rolled a 12-sided dice."
OG: "Really?" And on and on.
So here's the problem. I've got 5 regular players. Three are great. They love the complexity of the game and my intricate plots. They aren't optimizers, but they really get the game and play well. Then I've got these two are are starting to struggle. They do okay (barely) while their characters are 1-4 level, but as they go up levels, their turns take longer and longer. I tell myself to be patient, but this is the one night most of us have for recreation each week and it's starting to get very frustrating.
Suggesting that they don't play is an option, but not one I'm ready for yet. Can anybody think of any new ideas for making the game more manageable for my AARP players? The ideas might prove helpful for beginning players who feel insecure as well.
Thanks for your thoughts.
|
A few options that can help.
Index card with all their key stuff filled out on it.
On have the dice they need in front of them and have them be different color. Maybe even color code the index card. Like if you have a orange d6 and they use a short sword where the D6 dmg is for short sword have it highlighted in orange. Stuff like that.
Beyond that if it is rules they are having trouble with then maybe one of the retro clones might suit them better.
I have the same problem, it is very frustrating. I am working on several ways to solve it.
I have made up a bunch Cheat sheets from the Game Masters guide and the combat page from the pathfinder GM's screen. This helps some but not with every thing.
I have talked to all of my player about speeding up the game, I have gone over each roll that they will have to make and asked what they need.
I also have had blank sheets of paper laminated and then every one uses dry erase marker to write down Hp and add up damage and stuff. this has helped more then I thought it would.
I have not started this one yet it am going to soon, I am going to start Timing each plays rounds, this is pretty heavy handed but it should help.
In the end if you have been playing with them for this long hopeful you can talk to them about this problem, Have them make up there own sheets that they need to remember stuff, also with one of my player I have had to say no more Drinking, this was just my problem.
I have not had a fast smooth game yet but I think that I am getting there, at the end of the day I have deiced that it is kind of their problem and I will just have to help them.
Good luck I hope some other folks have some Ideas as well because I could use some more too
|
|
One of the things that I'm considering is creating spreadsheets that automatically generate any numbers they need to roll so that they can just say what they do and I'll push a button and determine the results. What do you think? Too insulting? They'll still make all the decisions, but I'll eliminate the dice rolling. I guess I'd still let them roll for initiative and if they want to roll for saves in life or death moments, I'd let them take control. What do you think?
Could either work well because those too don't care for dice rolling all that much OR could hurt their pride terminally - hard to say fromt he distance.
So I would advise you to talk to them and mention the problems you see - likely they aren't even aware of the problem and fixing it can only after aknowledging it.
I'd be rather surprised if they are actually using their d12s for anything in game. Have them put the d12s away to eliminate that confusion. If need be, consider buying them larger d20s with more easily visible numbers.
You might also consider color-coding your character sheets. I did this with my group of college-aged players. Many of them were new to playing and it was frustrating for me having them asking the same questions over and over, "Do I roll a d20 for this? Where's initiative on the sheet?"
After laying out my sheets according to the order in which the game takes place and color-coding combat, it was much easier to keep everyone on task.
- Who & Where — Character bio & appearance, where' they're from, etc.
- What — Ability scores are the first step in defining what they are
- When — Passive abilities that would determine when an encounter begins (i.e. Passive Stealth, Sense Motive, Perception, Trapfinding, Senses, and Languages known)
- Purple: Map setup — Initiative, size, speed
- Blue: Offense — BAB, CMB for each maneuver
- Cyan: Magic — Concentration, Save DCs, Caster Level checks
- Green: Saves
- Gold: Defense — Full AC, Touch AC, FF AC, Helpless AC, AC vs Incorporeal, CMD vs each maneuver
- Orange (foldover): Resistances — DR, Energy Resistance
- Red (foldover): HP tracking
I have fold-overs on each side of the sheet. Once combat has begun, players fold-over their skills tab revealing a list of their combat-relevant feats/abilities and a cardstock sheet which duplicates from Green on down. Since specific weapon attacks are listed on the left-side of the front, this lets them see ALL their combat info without turning things over.
Out of combat, they fold-over the attacks and can see feats and abilities that are not relevant to combat. Quite literally, the design is all about keeping everyone on the same page. Using larger fonts for the actual modifier and having the math hidden within the database (rather than printed) also makes things clearer.
Example: Color-coded character sheet
Another thing you might consider are some houserules to simplify some things.
One that I've adopted is that preparation-based casters simply prepare a number of spells each day (of a given level) equal to their spells per day (for that level). When they want to cast a spell, they may cast any of them so long as they still have spells remaining for that level. I have everyone's spellbooks in an excel sheet that I print out onto cardstock with large blocks along the left to mark spells memorized, and blocks along the top of the header for each spell level (equaling their spells per day) that they check off each time they cast.
It's a bit more flexible and steals a bit of the sorcerer's thunder, but it hasn't created any issues. Rather, it tends to save a good bit of time and stress.
Example: Modified Spellcasting
One final suggestion I have is to create a matrix of the skills, languages, and other important stats of the party members. This lets you (or other players) quickly see who is the best/worst at what. It should help others with better vision or who are faster thinkers to help out, or let you reference numbers without needing to ask. That way, your slower players can concentrate on what they want to do rather than getting lost in the game mechanics.
Example: Party Matrix
Hope some of this helps...
They may be having other problems which you are missing.
The most obvious is that, after 30 years, they don't see as well as they used to.
Try large print character sheets, bigger dice, higher contrast. Dice with patterns or complex colors are bad. Consider moving to bigger squares on the game table, like HeroClix. Or, make the battlemat more abstract by breaking open that Sorry! game, and color-code everyone.
Red token = fighter
Blue token = valkyrie
Excuse me, but how old are these people?
At least in their 50s I'd bet.
Okay, I'm at my wit's end. I've been playing with the same bunch for almost 30 years. Two of the players are really having a tough time processing the complexity of the rules.
So are these problem two NEW to your group or have they been doing D&D for 30 years? I cannot beleive anyone can play D&D for 30 years and still not get what dice to roll.
That said, I have a player like this in my Pathfinder group and she has been playing for 4 years, but only once every 5-6 weeks and she does no other gaming at all. She is more into the story than the mechanics.
|
|
Your advice is excellent. Some has been tried, but I can always try again.
Excuse me, but how old are these people?
They are close to 60, and yes, eyesight is somewhat a problem. I have given them simplified character sheets with a big font.
Keep in mind that these are two of the most creative people I've ever played with. Recently, my players on their own decided to vote for the one player they would choose first to be in their group for any adventure, and one of these old folks got the most votes. They are incredibly fun and great roleplayers. But they're not as sharp as they used to be. These aren't new players. They've been playing for 30 years from 1st edition to 3.5 and then to Pathfinder. The mechanics have always been a little tough for them, but in the past it's been manageable because frankly the other players in the group were still learning the ropes. Besides eyesight, I know attention-deficit issues are also at play.
By the way, I have talked to them and they are both self-conscious and respond to all aids and helps enthusiastically.
Laithron, thanks so much for your examples. I think a simple color-coding scheme could be a great idea.
I'm wanted to raise the issue because I would bet that this becomes an issue for a lot of groups. If it isn't age, it might be something else. There's a steep learning curve in RPGs and for new players, older players, or players with disabilities, I think we have to look for creative ways to make some accommodations without ruining the gaming for others in the group.
Since they are aware of the issue and willing to try and help it- I'd suggest "assigning" two of the other players to help.
By assign- I mean it loosely. Assign a player to sit beside each of the senior players and help them out. Help out with everything from which die to use, to where their init is located- just as you might have once done with a new player and a veteran player.
-S
I'm afraid I don't have any good advice. I just got a laugh out of the guy who has been playing D&D for 30 years and still isn't sure what die you roll when you attack. :-)
|
|
I'm afraid I don't have any good advice. I just got a laugh out of the guy who has been playing D&D for 30 years and still isn't sure what die you roll when you attack. :-)
Yeah, well, at least he provides great amusement.
Like the time a small green slime landed on his head so he broke a flask of alchemist fire on his own head.
Or the time he walked into a potion shop and asked to buy a cure moderate potion. The storekeeper asked, "How much have you got?" "600 gold," he answers. Storekeeper: "Great, that's how much one costs!" And he handed over the gold.
Or the time a storekeeper talked him into buying an expensive portable battering ram which slowed him up considerably, since he was traveling on foot at the time.
He's a keeper.
I have a box with dividers so I can have all the dice seperated by sides. I always take out several 20 siders first because most rolls are D20. When combat happens I set up the damage dice for my main attack. I also have a pad of paper handy so I can write up a column of numbers with all the to hit modifiers. If someone casts prayer or some thing I add a number on top. If we ever play again, I will try to have it somewhere where there are less distractions.
You can also buy larger dice. I have dice from incredibly tiny and rather large.
Also, you could have them pull out just the dice that their characters will need. Most characters only need their d20, weapon damage, and a d6. Maybe only having 2-3 dice to choose from will help.
Honestly, if you have some folks that are great roleplayers but don't care about the rules/math side of things, have you considered just making their rolls for them? I've played in games where the GM does all the rolling in secret, and it's a different experience, but still a lot of fun, and one which allows the players to focus solely on roleplaying. Of course, it puts more pressure on you, but even if you have to get fast and loose with the rolls and modifiers, it doesn't sound like those players will care.
If folks want story, give 'em story. You can always have the players who like the math continue to roll their own.
Have them plan and roll their actions in advance. As soon as their turn is over, they should be ready with their turns actions by the time it gets back around to them.
If they need to retcon an action tell them it is fine, hopefully that will speed up the game for everyone.
Since eyesight may be an issue I suggest turning up the lights.
Mood lighting is good for atmosphere but bad for details.
Otherwise I suggest you or another player shouldering as much of the fiddly bits as you can. Prefigure cmb/cmd etc and maybe consider larger color coded/high contrast dice.
I would also look at where you play. Are there lots of distractions or background noise? Anything you can do about that?
In my group there is one player with a hearing issue. After the first session we moved him to the GM immediate right so his best ear got the most input. This made a real difference.
In the same group we have a player who was having difficulty adjusting to Pathfinder's crunch. We were all happy to help but we were expecting it to take a while for the rules to sink in. Then the player got Hero Lab. Night and Day. Something in the way HL presented the rules allowed them to make sense. So don't give up
my 2 bits
~will
|
|
Honestly, if you have some folks that are great roleplayers but don't care about the rules/math side of things, have you considered just making their rolls for them?
I think I'm going to give this a try this weekend. I'm going to go with my spreadsheet idea and be ready to make all their rolls with the touch of a button. Whatever they decide to do, the laptop can just generate the roll. Of course, I'll still let them make "life or death" saves on their own if they want to. The spreadsheet will make it easier on me, and hopefully, they will have so much more fun just playing their characters that they won't object too much.
And I'm also going to try color coding their papers so that they can find the sections they need in order to decide what to do with their turns.
Great advice, everybody!
|
|
I'm old. ish....
I think I might be apt to doing this; last time I played, though, I was heinously wupping ass and saving the day and whatnot.
Me, personally.....
I STILL remember (1e shit) like
chainmail ac 5
18/00 str +3h +6dmg
two handed sword s/m 1d10 large 3-18 damage.
etc...etc...
name me a monster from 1e and I'll probably remember it's hit dice.
That's the game I learned and picked up in my teens.
3e came out when I turned 30. I can't memorize all this stuff any more. I got too much stuff going on, and my permanent memory doesn't imprint as well as when I was younger.
I remember my first phone number as a kid, but not the phone number at the apartment I stayed in 7 years ago.
I remember that....
The half life of fluorine 18 is 1.82 hours.....it decays by positron emission, and the annhilation reaction releases 2x 511 keV photons in opposite directions.
The dose for cck is .02 mg/kg of patient weight.
But I just don't remember.....5 foot step; can I do that? oh yeah.
We didn't care about 5 feet in 1e. Or.....what's the a.c. of a breast plate.....how much damage does a great sword do.
But I remember my anniversary, and all of my kids' birthdays.
When I had more than 4 hours of sleep the night before.
|
|
3e came out when I turned 30. I can't memorize all this stuff any more. I got too much stuff going on, and my permanent memory doesn't imprint as well as when I was younger.
I am so there with you. By the way, all of my players are over 50, except for when one of our children happens to join us. I can't believe how much of this game these young 20-somethings can quote from memory.
At least, we introduced all our children to the grand old game.
Overheard recently:
Senior player: (after having to look something up in the Core Rules for the nth time) I miss THAC0.
Slightly younger player: Why? You never understood that either.
Senior: I didn't? Yeah, I guess that's true.
|
3e came out when I turned 30. I can't memorize all this stuff any more. I got too much stuff going on, and my permanent memory doesn't imprint as well as when I was younger.I am so there with you. By the way, all of my players are over 50, except for when one of our children happens to join us. I can't believe how much of this game these young 20-somethings can quote from memory.
My bad :P
Awesome that you got the kids playing though *tips hat*
|
Lastly, if you have a bit of cash burning a hole in your pocket, some of the 3D model stuff (castles, walls, buildings, etc) can make a huge difference, as a 2d render/game board can get harder and harder to follow as eyesight goes, and folks start to slow down. You wouldn't have to invest in the huge 3d spaces, just some stone and wood walls, a few doorways, a couple buildings for towns, and maybe a a few vision blockers (pillars, carts, etc). Makes it much easier for the players to understand what is supposed to be going on on the map. For areas with lots of buildings the extra walls you buy work well for outlines of structures.
As one of the kids who occasionally comes home and plays (I'm "Daughter Loufing," in fact), I can say with absolute conviction that we are totally on top of this. I spent a whole summer making buildings out of cardstock according to the Worldworks patterns. Recently, we've started using dungeon floor tiles on top of a black posterboard. It makes things show up much better than the standard wet-erase board.
I think Mom's planning on constructing with plaster next.
As far as getting your kids to play D&D, I always love the answer I get to give when asked why I didn't get into trouble as a teenager. "Well, I spent every weekend playing D&D with my parents, so..." Besides, I honestly can't say I've ever played with a more fun group.
Since you mention they are both creative and good role players, well that buys you a ton of slack in my book.
|
|
3e came out when I turned 30. I can't memorize all this stuff any more. I got too much stuff going on, and my permanent memory doesn't imprint as well as when I was younger.I am so there with you. By the way, all of my players are over 50, except for when one of our children happens to join us. I can't believe how much of this game these young 20-somethings can quote from memory.
At least, we introduced all our children to the grand old game.
Overheard recently:
Senior player: (after having to look something up in the Core Rules for the nth time) I miss THAC0.
Slightly younger player: Why? You never understood that either.
Senior: I didn't? Yeah, I guess that's true.
THACO I can still do. No problem.
They could do "thac20" if they wanted to....it doesn't require a rulebook ;) though there's so many more mods in play nowadays it wouldn't seem to me to make a difference.
|
Since you mention they are both creative and good role players, well that buys you a ton of slack in my book.
Ditto. I'll take good role players who don't 'get' the mechanics any day.
As a GM I have accepted that there are some players who just don't get the mechanics, for whatever reason. The way that I deal with these players is I just work it into the narrative. I have the player describe what they want to try to do, and then I narrate what happens, dropping out of narrative to ask them to roll a d20 or whatever is needed.
This does mean that I have to learn their character's stats pretty well, but color coded Post-Its makes it easy enough to keep key stats for several characters handy.
|
|
Just to report back: We went diceless, at least the two who were having trouble did, and it worked like a dream. I rolled all their rolls using a spreadsheet, already setup to add in the correct modifiers. With a push of F9, I regenerated every number they could possibly roll and then just read them the result depending on what they were trying to do. To simplify things, I also used the spreadsheet to generate all my die rolls. I personally missed rolling the dice for myself and didn't roll nearly as many criticals (to be expected since I have a real knack with dice), but all in all, it was way more fun. The two players in question were actually prepared ahead of time for most of their turns. Yay! Thanks, everybody, for the help.