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Anyone else have questions?I'll happily take any deeper commentary and score breakdowns if they're available on mine.
Aaah Todd, how did you get so far? You would not believe the debates we had over your specific piece.
First off, Shelley who is very well read but knows nothing about Pathfinder Fiction loved your piece. She gave it a 19! So that counted for a lot. She was your champion. I was not far behind with an 18.
As a guy that nervously laughs over and over (One friend said I sound like a crazy person) I was a little dismayed over how little this fiend actually laughed. I was expecting a lot from this title. It was a lofty one. Audacious. It put a thought in my mind. Dinner with the Mad Hatter perhaps.
In the end the memory part was just not clever enough to seriously impress me. It was solid and it worked but I had seen something like this before.
Your strengths lie in your writing. Smooth like honey and easy to swallow and follow. This is truly a strong foundation. For a moment I thought I was in a Terry Brooks novel on my way to a Magic Kingdom for Sale. You are definitely on the cusp of your talent. Just a little further now.
If I were you I would write that novel idea you have been putting aside (and all writers have them). I feel you have the tools to really explore a grander place. If you were not so constrained by word count I think your real genius would have come out. There are a lot of people that think they need recognition before they proceed with investing themselves in a big novel...but they wait at their own peril...of losing their spark. At some age writers are just not cutting edge anymore. They write stuff that seems "removed" from what made them so special. Writing is a selfish pleasure and people that don't live up to their talent most likely spent their lives being selfless.
I expect great things from you at great cost.
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Well, to be entirely honest, the hunter in this story originally wasn't supposed to even survive it. And I sort of regret -not- killing him off in the draft I sent you. Will I use him in the future? Maybe. But somehow, I do feel like he should have died, and that would have brought the story, perhaps, to a more satisfying conclusion.
And I do like to think of myself as a storyteller. I just think the story I was trying to tell is far larger than the chunk I presented, which I think in that regard was the main failing of the story. I think the little alteration of Ailyn getting her vengeance against the Hellknight she felt failed to bring those responsible for the death of her father to justice might have made the story far more...complete. The story would be more along the lines of "Well, things have happened to this character in the past, and she may appear again in the future, but you don't need to read anything else to enjoy this story", in my opinion. I think my previous story with the character, In Hell's Embrace (which I recently finished) does fall more into the Serial Novella thing (mostly because it's really damn hard to write an -entire- short story in 1500 words). So they're connected, with Eyes of the Beast happening about a year after In Hell's Embrace, but it's not really an entire, continuous narrative, and I suppose I made a poor choice in ending my story the way I did, leaving far too much hanging.
And I actually figured the points for mine would have been spread out more. Hammered by two? I guess I can handle that. You can't really hope to please everyone, and while I'm curious as to who really disliked it, it's not really that important. Despite how overly critical I can be of my own work, I honestly know I'm good at writing. It's one of the few things I actually acknowledge that I have any talent in (believe me. I tend to err on the side of self-deprecation more often than not). And one has to have a thick skin for these sorts of things. So, if I could get any comments as to what they didn't like, or if they'd like to chime in, I'd be happy to hear them out. :)
And I guess I'd like to reiterate: I didn't feel like this was my best work, to begin with, lol. But a few people (Neil among them) convinced me that I was better off sending it in than not, really. And for that I'm grateful.
Aaah Todd, how did you get so far? You would not believe the debates we had over your specific piece.
*ponder* Much appreciated for the deeper critique there! :)
As for the writing, let's just say that many Bothans died to bring you the version that you read. My girlfriend absolutely tore my prose to pieces and threatened to punch me if I kept doing run-ons. She can be scary, so I listened. She's also a much better writer than I am, so her advice on what to revise and what to reword to sound better when she red-lined the initial draft was quite useful.
The contest was good practice, and I've already got an outline for a short piece for the next contest potentially.
And yes, the idea of a novel has crossed my mind, and it's lurking there in the back of my head poking me with a stinger-tipped tail every so often. Time is the big thing, but sometime in the next five years I'll actually get to it. Eyes may bleed and editors may weep, but I'll get to it eventually.
Zuxius, I'd love to hear your thoughts on my story, "Zayla". Thanks!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Hey Zux,I'd love some feedback. I'd like to get my "Wandering Kingdom" into the anthology if it can get in.
Cheers,
This was a lofty piece. There were quite a few characters to talk about in a short space of time. I felt your writing was fairly strong and solid. You handled that hurdle quite nicely.
...
Thanks for the feedback. I agree that it feels more like the beginning of a novel than a short story.
I'm hoping to get a revised version of this in any anthology but haven't had time to put this on the Chronicler website yet.
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Please send me any revisions you want to make on the story or Join the Pathfinder Chronicler so we can help you with that or simply to discuss your story.Thanks. I'll be sure to send along a revision of "Unrequited" in the near future. And I'll consider joining Pathfinder Chronicler the next time I have enough free time to read and critique some stories. (Right now, I've got a bit too much on my plate to contribute meaningfully to the reading and critiquing process. Maybe later, though.)
I do know the feeling :P
No worries, when you have the time we would be glad to have you aboardI will be waiting for "Unrequited"
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And I actually figured the points for mine would have been spread out more. Hammered by two? I guess I can handle that. You can't really hope to please everyone, and while I'm curious as to who really disliked it, it's not really that important. Despite how overly critical I can be of my own work, I honestly know I'm good at writing. It's one of the few things I actually acknowledge that I have any talent in (believe me. I tend to err on the side of self-deprecation more often than not). And one has to have a thick skin for these sorts of things. So, if I could get any comments as to what they...
Dane it was good you headed Neil's advice. The first step is always the hardest, and even an incomplete or not over the top story is better than no story. That gives us all the opportunity to learn.
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1 general comment:
We noticed that many of the stories where part of something bigger... that is what I have read that writing short stories is a lot harder than writing a novels.
Longer stories and novels gives us the chance to expand ourselves and explore other particular details or subplots...
Short stories needs to be exact... you use what you need, everything else just derails from the story. Short stories should be precise and made to fit (in this Kuttner was a true master). that doesn't mean you can't leave open endings... just that you need to make them good, let the reader imagine what follows and not just wait for more. With short stories more might not actually happen. Sometimes do.
Still, shorts stories, longer ones, serial, novels, anything. Just keep writing :D
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Montalve on the otherhand would say completely different. He gave you a very high score and he thinks what I consider a short story isn't actually the case. We completely disagree on this even today. However, that does not change the fact that two other judges really hammered your story into the floor. I even have to scratch my head at those numbers...brutal.
nor will we ever do... which is the beauty of this... tastes range pretty much so everyone had a fair chance. Besides... Ted and me were mostly nice... looking on each entry for what made it a decent story...
we also had brutal judges, which is GOOD! their perspective certainly was harsher, but you go to these people to see if you have a chance in the writing market, because the readers will judge you like that. My work is more like tell you "ok... you have this problems, how do we fix them? try this, and these and that too... but keep writing"As Ted had expressed the only way to become better writer, is writing (but seeing each own flaws... if one never see what are we doing wrong, well then we keep doing it wrong)
I want to see your story in the anthology but if I were to get my editing hands on this I would expect you to say this story is a Serial Novel/Novella about a hunter and a huntress. I would expect these two to have a merry chase spanning for quite a few 1000 words before entering into a mindblowing end. I would say about 10k to pull this off. The Anthology will also allow Serial Novel/Novella excerpts in addition to Short Stories. I know we have a few already planned. So, don't feel pigeonholed into thinking you have to make major alterations to come up with a "Short Story" with a conclusive ending. That is just not the case.
We DO prefer short stories, or excerpts/parts that give a meaningful conclusion even if they are open for something else. I don't want promises of a novel without actually a novel to fit in.
Dane if you get "Eyes of the Beast" into the Anthology, one thing we can do is actually point to your story, so people can visit it and learn more of Aylin, same with everyone.
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I definitely want to revise Enchained as well for you all. I'm planning on joining Pathfinder Chronicler soon, when the school year gives me a good opening to make the commitment. Question: as far as revisions/getting works into the Anthology goes, do the word count limits still apply? I feel like I might need a few more words to fully take into account all of the feedback, but I'm happy to work within the limits as well.
And in light of these upcoming revisions, Zuxius, your comments are more than welcome...
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Zuxius, I'd love to hear your thoughts on my story, "Zayla". Thanks!
Your story did very well actually. You were ranked 21 in the contest.
I must admit one thing that really bothered me thoughout the story. The names! Zayla and Vayla were so close together that it reminded me of Huey Dewey and Louie. I could not get around that simple fact. Never thought a name could provoke such a distinguishing attribute, but it really does set an identity aside.
Twin brothers Raistlin and Caramon! Twin brothers Raistlin and Caistlin?
No flippin' idea why this particular point stood so prominently.
And yes, I do think children are named in such a way that they are similar. As a reader this just forced me to think and eventually I had to swallow it and just read on. But I made up my mind that I didn't like the sisters names just so I didn't reach for some crazy pills.
The action was great. The villian slashing her throat was well put together. I can't say enough good things about the story really. I enjoyed it after I got over myself. I am not a big fan of dramatic near deaths in gamey terms. I would rather see a slit throat lead to death than a heal spell or a potion. Somehow that just robs the reader of suspense when they realize this fact. I know it is part of the magic game and world but I still can't reconcile it in fiction. I mean angels would have to come down from the heavens and ask all the love ones to forgive their tresspasses before someone is healed of a fatal blow by divine intervention or presto liquids.
The way you built that scene was superb and the throat slit was just completely unexpected. I loved it other than the way it was handled by healing.
Reminds me of the Arnold Swarzenegger film, The 6th Day. The villians kept dying in seriously fatal ways and were cloned up with a replacement that had all their memories. Up and atom! Time to run. Healing has that affect on me as a reader. I understand that it is all part of the magic gig, but I really don't like magic represented in a game form (even if that is what really happens in the world there and anyone reading my stuff would say...a simple clairvoyant spell would totally ruin your story premise).
We had a lot of stories that were about setting up a scene and getting acquainted with the characters and "Fight, fight fight."
I even made up a line.
They fight, they fight. They fight they fight they fight. The Itchy and Scratchy shooooooow.
Your story deviated from this a bit with a chase which was rather refreshing. The villian didn't seem so bright. I find that once you whip an evil whatever, they tend to play on your humanity (even if they are devoid of it themselves). They know that survival is their highest priority when someone has the chance to coup de grace them. I found the responses to be too selfless and honest. Why tell the truth at all? I am Arello's brother that stood in for him while he was away on a trip. I have this terrible creature affliction. The idea is to delay, delay, delay until a manner of escape is discovered. The thing should act cowardly and helpless while it cultivates the moment to strike with all its might. That is what I would do. The word count was probably against you playing this out to such a more probable conclusion. So somehow (I theorize)this story got bigger than anticipated. You really had just a few elements so I think the scope was small enough but the villian just didn't die "good."
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So, if I could get any comments as to what they didn't like, or if they'd like to chime in, I'd be happy to hear them out. :)
My biggest beef with your story was a lack of resolution. It was a wonderful read, albeit incomplete. It did not fit into a 4500 word Short Story. It might be a 6000-7500 word short story. And after those extra words it might be better than Neil's piece that won the contest. Part of the choices you made when you crafted your story was to not have a resolution at this time. The creature got away and the showdown didn't happen.
Would the story ranked higher with the showdown happening? I honestly don't know. I feel that there is more to have from this story. I feel that you yourself realized that it couldn't happen then because your writer "spidey sense" kicked on and told you that a masterpiece was to be had but not by rushing to a campy ending. Trust me Dane, the writers that threw in the slay the devil ending to "make an ending" scored way less than you did. Some did alright too. It is my gut feeling that you understood what was required to develop credible characters and build proper tension but knew that timing was a very big factor.
This story does not need a revision so much as it needs a part 2 to a part?.
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Oh, I'll agree that there's more to the story. Or, more specifically, more stories to be told. I plan on continuing to write about Ailyn, and I think this story was important...connecting it to In Hell's Embrace, it shows a transition between the more timid Ailyn there and her more...severe incarnation going forward. So perhaps not a "part 2", but there certainly is still more to be told.
I suppose my favorite part about the story is this: Who's really the villain? People are free to make their own conclusions, of course :)
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I definitely want to revise Enchained as well for you all. I'm planning on joining Pathfinder Chronicler soon, when the school year gives me a good opening to make the commitment. Question: as far as revisions/getting works into the Anthology goes, do the word count limits still apply? I feel like I might need a few more words to fully take into account all of the feedback, but I'm happy to work within the limits as well.
And in light of these upcoming revisions, Zuxius, your comments are more than welcome...
hi Calandra, no, the wordcount does not apply after the editions, neither I expect a novelleta, but I agree that if an story needs more space to breath it can be taken.
And we will be happy to take you in, when you have the time and if you have any doubt I will be happy to help.
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The action was great. The villian slashing her throat was well put together. I can't say enough good things about the story really. I enjoyed it after I got over myself. I am not a big fan of dramatic near deaths in gamey terms. I would rather see a slit throat lead to death than a heal spell or a potion. Somehow that just robs the reader of suspense when they realize this fact. I know it is part of the magic game and world but I still can't reconcile it in fiction. I mean angels would have to come down from the heavens and ask all the love ones to forgive their tresspasses before someone is healed of a fatal blow by divine intervention or presto liquids.
Ted has a point, casually used "game resources" take some of the feeling on fiction...
But I disagree in the use of healing magic taking away the dramatism, its more a thing about the execution.lets forget Golarion is a gaming world.
Its a fantasy world were gods answer prayers and wizards can bring down armies wih the flicker of a wrist. with this in context, having someone survive a fatal blow through the use of magic (specially being a cleric and bringing your cleric sister around) is not only good, but a definite must... as a reader myself, while the slashing scene was good, I keep hoping the girl survived, I like a dramatic death like anyone else, but so do I love dramatic rescues. In my case it was maybe thefact that Vayla was more worried about her hair and dress than the actual fact she was about to die! (ok she is an airhead... but even airheads have survival incstincs, whatever the movies say :P)
in sumary... you will find different reactions on different readers, that is fine... just tune it in a way that would bring a better answer :)
PS: I do like the names Vayla and Zayla :P
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Oh, I'll agree that there's more to the story. Or, more specifically, more stories to be told. I plan on continuing to write about Ailyn, and I think this story was important...connecting it to In Hell's Embrace, it shows a transition between the more timid Ailyn there and her more...severe incarnation going forward. So perhaps not a "part 2", but there certainly is still more to be told.
ahhh, yes... you suffer the same malaise than i do.
you know your character well and write it like that... but like me you fall in an usual situation...you do write as if the reader knew your character as well as you do.
that might had been another thing lacking... your reference indeed speak of events before the story, being linked to the bigger one this is story works, but being writen as short story it is constructed using the other's structure, which leaves the reader with the sense that something is missing.
Remember in a short story, even when making references to past or future stories, you need to link the points, both past (which can be hard, but done right helps the story) and future (this with some sort of resolution)
at least those are my further 2 cents
Zuxius, thanks for the response to Zayla! I appreciate it!
Yes, the word limit definitely worked against me towards the end. I had originally wanted a bigger chase with a finale that had more of the villain doing what you wanted to see. Unfortunately, I just didn't have room. When I first outlined the story, I thought it seemed just about right for the word range. By the time I realized that it really needed another 750 words or so, there wasn't enough time left to fix it.
I agree completely that "game mechanics" should not show in the writing; however, I have to agree with Montalve that the use of magic such as healing magic doesn't really fall under that. Such magic exists in the world and with characters who have access to it, it makes sense to me that they'd use it. But to each their own!
Montalve, I find your response to Vayla's thoughts during her near-death quite illuminating. While Vayla is definitely an airhead, my intention there was that she was losing consciousness and so not able to think straight about anything. Still, it's very interesting to see how others interpret things, and definitely something for me to keep in mind when I revise it.
Thanks to both of you!
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Zuxius, thanks for the response to Zayla! I appreciate it!
Yes, the word limit definitely worked against me towards the end. I had originally wanted a bigger chase with a finale that had more of the villain doing what you wanted to see. Unfortunately, I just didn't have room. When I first outlined the story, I thought it seemed just about right for the word range. By the time I realized that it really needed another 750 words or so, there wasn't enough time left to fix it.
I agree completely that "game mechanics" should not show in the writing; however, I have to agree with Montalve that the use of magic such as healing magic doesn't really fall under that. Such magic exists in the world and with characters who have access to it, it makes sense to me that they'd use it. But to each their own!
Montalve, I find your response to Vayla's thoughts during her near-death quite illuminating. While Vayla is definitely an airhead, my intention there was that she was losing consciousness and so not able to think straight about anything. Still, it's very interesting to see how others interpret things, and definitely something for me to keep in mind when I revise it.
Thanks to both of you!
I have to second that. Having her think of incidental things as her life ran out was extremely effective. That in itself was awesome. Again, healing may seem like the norm but to me it is just so hokey. Everytime I read in a story about someone get a healing boost it just tears out the drama. I am not sure how I would write such a thing even if I had a gun to my head by James Sutter.
Zuxius,
I'm curious to see what your thoughts were on Darkness Before Dawn
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Oh, I'll agree that there's more to the story. Or, more specifically, more stories to be told. I plan on continuing to write about Ailyn, and I think this story was important...connecting it to In Hell's Embrace, it shows a transition between the more timid Ailyn there and her more...severe incarnation going forward. So perhaps not a "part 2", but there certainly is still more to be told.
I suppose my favorite part about the story is this: Who's really the villain? People are free to make their own conclusions, of course :)
I did get that part of who was the villian but I had to side with the guy whose perspective you had chosen for the simple fact that your other character murdered someone. Not tot say this guy won't but at least he was looking to find the murderer so that carried the story alone on presumed assumption.
I would really like to see this story developed more and we are more than willing to help you do that. This is something you could put up on Pathfinder Chronicler and have the finale out in Wayfinder #5. Finale's seem to work as submissions to Wayfinder. Just a thought.
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I definitely want to revise Enchained as well for you all. I'm planning on joining Pathfinder Chronicler soon, when the school year gives me a good opening to make the commitment. Question: as far as revisions/getting works into the Anthology goes, do the word count limits still apply? I feel like I might need a few more words to fully take into account all of the feedback, but I'm happy to work within the limits as well.
And in light of these upcoming revisions, Zuxius, your comments are more than welcome...
Maggie,
Your story was no doubt my second favorite in the contest. I read the stories blind and assumed I was reading Neil Spicer's work. I had read a peice by Neil back in PaizoCon 2009 when they did a three hour workshop. Neil's piece was an excerpt but it read so warmly that I have to say that it reminds me of Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis. You two should really collaborate a novel. Your styles are both very warm and...
I think I am about to hatch a plan. I will be contacting you very soon.
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Zuxius,
I'm curious to see what your thoughts were on Darkness Before Dawn
This piece was real tough.
There was a "real" quality to it that superceded the gendre. I have seen a lot of films about torture survivors as well as read about Nazi Atrocities and Elie Wiesel. So torture is something I am very keen about. It is a rather disturbing topic.
If done too well it makes the reader think too much about the author's real experiences in the subject. Does the author have a firsthand experience with this? Is it from a real event and cloaked in fantasy? If it really did happen, why is it not showing up in a non-fiction sort of way?
These were my thoughts while reading your story. It was that vivid. I also related to the emotions behind your characters. This description was very accurate in regards to what people feel when tortured. The way the father and daughter were taken away also read accurate to my understanding of political prisoners.
So right there, you had me at a different hemisphere than Golarion Fiction. I will not belittle your success at getting my attention and holding it. The manner at which it was done however steered my thoughts away from Pathfinder Fiction Contest.
I am not saying there isn't a place for what you wrote. In fact, this would have worked very well in a novel where the reader could get a break by reading another perspective outside. Such as the case with "would be" rescuers planning the prison break to free both her and her father. That outside perspective would get the reader motivated to feel that the future was uncertain. Turn the page to see if nothing worse happens.
As it was though (and is in real life) there was no respite from the mechanisms of information extraction. I doubt you had the words to use on a second story but I think that would have added a HUGE catalyst to the story. It wouldn't change the story you wrote one bit but it would add another dimension if the reader believed a credible rescue was in the works.