Davor
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I have seen many responses in these threads, read through dozens of pages of text, and given the class a thorough evaluation and playtested it, albeit not very much. I have seen several issues with the class, and with people's perception of it, and will try to tie in some of my personal class-design philosophy with my evaluation.
What I have gathered from my readings, as well as the statements from developers, etc., is that the Magus is a class designed with the intent of being able to cast magic and engage in melee combat effectively. I would like to draw emphasis to the word "effectively", as this is the word that people seem to be debating over, yet are unable to agree upon a working definition for.
Let me posit the following example: I am playing an elf wizard. I look at an enemy, and decide that, rather than using my spells, I would like to pick up a bow and use it. I mean, I am playing an elf, after all. However, with my low attack bonus, and likely my low chance of hitting, I will very likely miss. In addition, the arrow is likely to do very little damage, even if it is enhanced via magic.
This is simply the nature of the beast: I chose to play a wizard, and in making that choice it is understood that my class had strengths and weaknesses, and when I chose to fire an arrow, I was playing to one of my class's weaknesses.
Now, when it comes to the Magus, we have to consider what it's purpose is, as well as why it would be fun to play. Needless to say, if I did nothing but shoot arrows with my elf wizard, I wouldn't be having much fun.
If, in fact, the Magus is designed to be both an effective melee combatant and spellcaster, what tools does it need to do so? Looking at other melee classes, we see many similar traits:
Full BAB
3/4 BAB
4th Level Spell Progression
6th Level Spell Progression
Now, while this may be a very basic list, it shows some of the basic building blocks used by all melee classes. The relative value of these abilities is not what is being called into question. Only the playability and "fun factor" is being called.
Can I have fun playing a Bard as a melee combatant? While he may be lacking in accuracy, he has plenty of abilities to make up for it, as well as make him unique. Can I play a Rogue as a melee combatant? I certainly hope so, and he also has unique abilities which make this choice not only "viable", but fun.
This is the beauty of Pathfinder. While some classes may seem more "valuable" than others, they are all effective in combat, or in a variety of other situations. They all have something special about them that makes them fun.
In my humble opinion, Magus is missing some of that love. While inherently a fun concept, the class, as it exists, lacks an element of fun. It does not need, as so many arguments say, to do the damage of a fighter or have the spellcasting of a wizard, but when I DO attack with my Magus, I should feel like I am contributing. The same goes for my spellcasting. As such, I feel that the designers, as well as the playtesters, should stop tearing this class a new one and start figuring out ways to make it fun.
As I mentioned, fun does not come from having Full BAB, d12 HD, 9th Level Spellcasting, and 8+Int Mod. skill points per level, either together or with any one of those attributes. It comes from a class's ability to contribute and seem unique within a group. This is what should be most important when looking at this class.
Also, I think we should have Metamagic Arcana usable 3/day, and we need to ditch sacrificing spells for attack bonuses. Losing spells for a short-term personal attack bonus isn't fun :P
w0nkothesane
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Conversely to your post, I see the class as having a lot of things that can make it fun, and I am confident that the one thing it is lacking (a good spell list) will be fixed with the new spells.
I think it was a major oversight that the playtest is expected to yield useful results with such an obviously incomplete spell list, but in my playtest this weekend I'll be accommodating that by giving it some thematically appropriate spells from the Spell Compendium.
I think the sheer versatility given by the Arcana's that let the Magus sacrifice a spell for a buff makes it worthwhile. The Magus can take a risk preparing more situationally useful spells, confident that if that particular situation doesn't come up, he can at least sacrifice it for a short buff.
And if the Magus prepares a bunch of Fire spells expecting to encounter an ice giant, and winds up fighting a bunch of demons, those slots don't go totally to waste.
I think it would be nice to give extra uses to the Metamagic Arcana. Maybe make them scale with level, allowing 2 uses per day at level X+4 and 3/day at X+8. This would (rightfully IMO) cap Quickened Magic at 2/day and the others at 3/day.
| Hexcaliber |
From my playtest I can tell you that casting a spell and attacking all in the same round IS fun.
The maneuver mastery arcana really allows the class to contribute. In the playtest I focused on the high Int by taking Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Improved Disarm. I never got to disarm anything, but the trip was super effective. I went with, what I thought, was a no brainer build.
Then I realized the critical explosion.
With a keen rapier/scimitar/kukri the Magus can have a very flashy opening move, but it won't happen all the time. Is this fun? When it connects, yes it will be cool, but it isn't sneak attack. It isn't always there.
That's just an observatory statement. I find the critical explosion build to be one, highly unreliable option. The maneuver build is the sure thing, but it is another choice and it's a good one.
So, thus far we have two really strong builds for the class. A flashy critical hit build that seeks to do an additional 10d6 with shocking grasp at least once per combat and a maneuver build that trips/disarms/dirty tricks/repositions as a fighter of equal level.
That sounds pretty fun to me.
What people complain about is how the class does not live up to their expectations. They expect to be able to do is cast a spell AND meaningfully contribute to combat right away at first level. This is a trap. Around 6th level the class can do great maneuvers and its spellstrike can deliver a critical +10d6. From that point on the class is doing really well.
So, how do we make it fun at the earliest levels? If you cross compare the Magus to any other class at the first three levels you'll see where the problem lies. Melee classes can do melee all day, but casters run out of steam pretty quick. The Magus is a caster, but the perception is that of a melee combatant. Like a caster the Magus will run out of steam quick, but unlike a caster the Magus can still fight and not suck completely at it. He/she just won't be as effective as other melee types.
This is a whole new class. It is a limited encounter fighter. This is something we've never seen before and people are going to have some issues with the class as is. Is a caster fun once they've run out of spells? How about when they run out of "times per day" class features? This is where the Magus lies and that is why the class fails to meet expectations.
The idea of reserve feat style abilities has be bandied about by myself and others in other post. I think this mechanic should be explored since it fits perfectly with the class. If the spells you pick for the day reflect the abilities you gain then the class should be a heckuva lot more fun to play.
| Simon Legrande |
From my playtest I can tell you that casting a spell and attacking all in the same round IS fun.
The maneuver mastery arcana really allows the class to contribute. In the playtest I focused on the high Int by taking Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Improved Disarm. I never got to disarm anything, but the trip was super effective. I went with, what I thought, was a no brainer build.
Then I realized the critical explosion.
With a keen rapier/scimitar/kukri the Magus can have a very flashy opening move, but it won't happen all the time. Is this fun? When it connects, yes it will be cool, but it isn't sneak attack. It isn't always there.
That's just an observatory statement. I find the critical explosion build to be one, highly unreliable option. The maneuver build is the sure thing, but it is another choice and it's a good one.
So, thus far we have two really strong builds for the class. A flashy critical hit build that seeks to do an additional 10d6 with shocking grasp at least once per combat and a maneuver build that trips/disarms/dirty tricks/repositions as a fighter of equal level.
That sounds pretty fun to me.
What people complain about is how the class does not live up to their expectations. They expect to be able to do is cast a spell AND meaningfully contribute to combat right away at first level. This is a trap. Around 6th level the class can do great maneuvers and its spellstrike can deliver a critical +10d6. From that point on the class is doing really well.
So, how do we make it fun at the earliest levels? If you cross compare the Magus to any other class at the first three levels you'll see where the problem lies. Melee classes can do melee all day, but casters run out of steam pretty quick. The Magus is a caster, but the perception is that of a melee combatant. Like a caster the Magus will run out of steam quick, but unlike a caster the Magus can still fight and not suck completely at it. He/she just won't be as effective as other melee types.
This...
+1. I playtested the class last night and came to the same conclusions. IMO, it seems like a maneuver build is where this class really wants to go. Personally I would play this class as is without a second thought. Once you realize what it does and doesn't do it's very east to work with.
As for dipping, this class should be a main with dips into other classes not vice versa. Maybe a rogue to get some saves and sneak attack, or a fighter to buff the BAB a bit.
| james maissen |
Now, while this may be a very basic list, it shows some of the basic building blocks used by all melee classes. The relative value of these abilities is not what is being called into question. Only...
The medium BAB classes that are designed to be able to go into melee have something to augment them in combat. Even the full BAB classes have things to make them excel in combat. The augments for the medium BAB classes comes either as a situational requirement or from expendable resources.
Two examples of this would be the rogue with sneak attack and the monk with ki points, flurry of blows and some stunning fist variant (as the APG has made several).
The rogue when using sneak attack is able to come close to fighter level damage for the round. Meanwhile he doesn't quite have the AC or the hps to really fill the fighter role.
The monk when burning ki and flurrying (where the monk gains a bonus to his BAB) can attempt to keep up here. Factor in say perfect strike (or some other version that will deliver status/maneuvers) and while burning scare resources the monk can suffice. The monk is considered a bit weak, but can try to achieve here.
The magus without spell combat is on par with the prior two classes. But unlike the others, at low levels, spell combat does not deliver what the class abilities deliver for the other two. Rather the magus burns resources as fast as the monk and delivers on the level of the rogue if that. Were the penalties (including forced combat casting) removed from the start we'd see the ability on par for the resources it consumes.
Currently the low level magus has the worst of both worlds. And many would have him completely ignore his signature ability based on how the numbers run.. and I can't blame them.
While many things can be assuaged by massaging their spell list, I would suggest that you attempt to run them without any penalties for spell combat and see how that works for you.
-James
VikingIrishman
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The idea of reserve feat style abilities has be bandied about by myself and others in other post. I think this mechanic should be explored since it fits perfectly with the class. If the spells you pick for the day reflect the abilities you gain then the class should be a heckuva lot more fun to play.
This is actually a fantastic idea. I've been considering allowing Reserve feats in my Kingmaker game, but my brother has my books so I haven't been able to look them over again.
Definitely give the Magus an Arcana that allows him to take a Reserve feat as a bonus feat.