As the post says. The same question stands with summoned monsters, eidolons and minions.
I have a bunch of NPC's with AC/F/M's coming up and I'd really like to know.
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As the post says. The same question stands with summoned monsters, eidolons and minions.
I have a bunch of NPC's with AC/F/M's coming up and I'd really like to know.
I might be wrong, but don't familiars, animal companions etc normally have their own initiative? Otherwise, what is the point of 'pets' having their own Initiative Modifier (which most likely is different than the master's) or in giving such creatures feats like Improved Initiative etc. It does not make much sense to have a lightning fast cheetah animal companion with a very high Initiative Modifier not go until the player with the low Initiative Modifier does for example.
Or, as in your example, what if the player or the animal delays?
I know some groups do have player and animal do this anyway just for ease of play, but I don't think the rules specify that it must be that way. I know I've never been in a group that played that way. We always have animals, familiars, cohorts etc go on their own, correctly calculated initiative order.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Since all of these pets generally need to be told what to do, if they had their own initiative, they'd simply have to wait until their owner gives them a command. For intelligent pets, they could execute more tactics involving delay, but for animal intelligence ones, I'd rule you'd have to teach it a 'delay' trick.
Only mounts and summoned monsters act on your turn as far as I know anyways. If a mount or summoned monster were to delay for some reason, its place in the initiative order would most certainly change.
Well, a player having two initiatives to act on doesn't jive with me as alright. Nothing makes another player feel left out more than having less to do during combat.
All that aside though, let's just stick with summons. Do you have to delay if you command them to delay, or to ready an action?
Well, a player having two initiatives to act on doesn't jive with me as alright. Nothing makes another player feel left out more than having less to do during combat.
All that aside though, let's just stick with summons. Do you have to delay if you command them to delay, or to ready an action?
Last I checked, talking was a free action you could take even when it wasn't your turn.
Therefore, you can tell your summons to delay, or when to act, etc. provided you are able to communicate with them clearly at all.
Well, a player having two initiatives to act on doesn't jive with me as alright. Nothing makes another player feel left out more than having less to do during combat.
All that aside though, let's just stick with summons. Do you have to delay if you command them to delay, or to ready an action?
Last I checked, talking was a free action you could take even when it wasn't your turn.
Therefore, you can tell your summons to delay, or when to act, etc. provided you are able to communicate with them clearly at all.
Thank you for not answering my question.
Is the consensus that a player can act on two initiative counts? Why does that seem wrong to me?
Yes, a player can act on two initiative counts. By contrast, short of something very bizzare and likely overpowered, a single PC can not act on two initiative counts.
Is this wrong? Hard to say. Lets clarify the question: is it mechanically correct? Yes. There are many combinations that could cause this:
PC + Animal Companion
PC + Familiar
PC + Mount
PC + Summoned Creature
PC + Cohort via Leadership
Or lets just be a Druid/Summonner taking the Acquire Familiar feat and Leadership, and go really nuts.
All of these assume the DM has the PC in question "deal with" any companion/summon/henchmen type critters. Several threads have gone over which way is best for the DM to rule that particular delegation; ultimately, its a matter of preference.
Now lets examine a different aspect of the question: "Is this thematically correct?"
Which leads to the question of "does it make sense?" An animal companion is specifically taught tricks that it must be commanded to take. While a default of "guard" is likely always on unless otherwise noted, that does imply that an animal companion isn't going to do anything besides defend itself (attack something directly attacking it), retreat from a foe, or attack something attacking whoever it was ordered to guard, unless and untill it is given specific orders to the contrary. And since the PC who gives the orders must do so on his turn, not before it, it makes sense the companion would then likewise act on his turn, a sort of "naturally" delaying.
Summons specifically act on the caster's turn, but nothing prevents them from more advanced delaying/readying tactics except for their own mental capabilities.
Familiars and Mounts (intelligent ones at least) are an odd bunch. They are technically intelligent enough to delay if the situation warrants it, but the situation rarely ever will, since the mount is likely ridden, making it simply superior to have both initiatives at the same point, and the familiar is generally non-combat, making it a moot argument. Granted, some exceptions apply.
Cohorts are the most likely to act on their own initiative scores, increasingly more so relative to increased mental stats. A cohort with INT, WIS, and CHA 12+ is an above average person, and being loyal to the PC in question, likely knows more about the PCs tactics than the other players might (considering that cohort "lives" with the PC in the game world, while the other players (not PCs) only see him for a few hours a week at the game table). Less intelligent, or less self-motivated cohorts (low Cha) might be more like animal companions, waiting for orders from "the Boss".
The final question, and the one you seem to be really asking, is: Is this fair to players who don't have animal companions/cohorts/giant miniature space hamsters?
It is nearly impossible for you to answer that question. Because its really going to be your players who answer it. Some will be okay with it, looking at it as "their feat/class ability, their benefit". Many players may say "yeah, he gets a little more screen time, but he's got to remember a lot more than I do". And some may say "I think its crap, he takes more time in combat than the rest of us put together."
At that point, when other players aren't having fun because of it, it becomes the DMs responsibility. You must examine if the problem lies with the player, the system, or both. If the player is disorganized, ask him to organize. If he isn't, or can't, then perhaps removing the source of the problem is valid. Ultimately, thats the DMs job, to keep the game fun for the players.
Note that it isn't written in stone (or RAW, afaik) that the player directly controls his PC's companion/summon/cohort/whatever. I've played in groups where the player controlled it, and games where the DM controlled it (though the player's PC could still command it).
In a game I ran where a Druid had a wolf companion, I had her roll initiative for the Druid and the Wolf separately.
If the wolf's initiative was higher than the Druid, it could defend itself, but it wouldn't move, charge, take specific actions, etc. until the Druid's initiative.
To me, it makes sense. The wolf may have a better reaction time than the Druid (preventing it from being caught flat footed, etc) but it wouldn't execute commands until the Druid could decide what she wanted it to do and told it.
Only mounts and summoned monsters act on your turn as far as I know anyways. If a mount or summoned monster were to delay for some reason, its place in the initiative order would most certainly change.Close. Mounts act on your turn. Most summon spells specify that the summoned creature acts immediately on your turn, meaning that it *starts* at your initiative.
Ah. Yes. You're right.
Well, a player having two initiatives to act on doesn't jive with me as alright. Nothing makes another player feel left out more than having less to do during combat.
All that aside though, let's just stick with summons. Do you have to delay if you command them to delay, or to ready an action?
Last I checked, talking was a free action you could take even when it wasn't your turn.
Therefore, you can tell your summons to delay, or when to act, etc. provided you are able to communicate with them clearly at all.
Thank you for not answering my question.
Is the consensus that a player can act on two initiative counts? Why does that seem wrong to me?
Um...but I did answer your question. You asked "Do you have to delay if you command them to delay?" to which I responded "No. Commanding them to do anything is a free action."
Note that animals and similarly unintelligent creatures take a move action to command (via the Handle Animal skill) unless they are considered an animal companion.
Thank you Black Bard. I guess I just needed to be reminded thy the fun is the most important thing.
My apologies about the confusion Ravingdork.
Thank you all. This has helped.
We have always played where the companion (or whatever) in question goes on the PC's initiative for simplicity. Optionally the companion may act on a different initiative, but we hardly do that. In fact, we hand-wave a lot of the complexity involved in tricks and "pushing" an animal. It has never struck us as very heroic to have to sit and take a move action to say "Go on, Tigger! Maul that ghoul! You can do it! Attack!" And have to use up two trick slots to even attack the thing if it isn't another animal or humanoid or whatever.
So I concur with the "do what is fun" idea.
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[...] to which I responded "No. Commanding them to do anything is a free action."
Not necessarily true. Speaking is a free action that can be performed when it's not your turn (and the rules say, "In general"), but issuing commands could be interpreted as being different from simply speaking. This is shown by the fact that command word activated magic items require a standard action to activate. But if command words could be common phrases that accidentally trigger an item to activate, then speaking as a free action should be able to trigger them. What makes command word items a standard action then?
To me it's game balance. Hence the use of the "In general" phrase when saying that speaking is a free action that can be used when it's not your turn.
Generally I require speaking as a free action to be 6 words or less and no conversations between creatures. And even then I conceptualize the speaking as happening during the other actions that the creature is taking during the round (after all, combat actions are simultaneous regardless of initiative order).
[...] to which I responded "No. Commanding them to do anything is a free action."Not necessarily true. Speaking is a free action that can be performed when it's not your turn (and the rules say, "In general"), but issuing commands could be interpreted as being different from simply speaking. This is shown by the fact that command word activated magic items require a standard action to activate. But if command words could be common phrases that accidentally trigger an item to activate, then speaking as a free action should be able to trigger them. What makes command word items a standard action then?
To me it's game balance. Hence the use of the "In general" phrase when saying that speaking is a free action that can be used when it's not your turn.
Generally I require speaking as a free action to be 6 words or less and no conversations between creatures. And even then I conceptualize the speaking as happening during the other actions that the creature is taking during the round (after all, combat actions are simultaneous regardless of initiative order).
I've always understood magic to be spoken in Draconic which has tons of syllables, some of which probably don't roll off the human tongue easily. Command words always seemed to me to be something that had to be spoken with some level of precision, which took a measure of concentration, hence the standard action.
Animal companions follow easily spoken commands. "Attack" (whatever I'm pointing at). And they are trained to recognize your allies (I hope) so basically, you don't even have to point. You say sic em and the thing goes for whatever it sees that isn't "master or friends."
Doesn't seem like a difficult thing to me.