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So, if you have the Merciful Spell Metamagic Feat...it adds 0 levels to your spell, AND you have the Trait called Magical Linage. It says that for a single selected spell, consider it's level to be 1 level lower.
So now you have a non-lethal Magic Missile spell that is a 0 level spell. So, you could cast it every round, without limit, right?
Sure, I suppose it isn't huge deal, as it is non-lethal, and it is only a first level spell, but it just seems like that it should be possible.
Windquake
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"It would be a healthy exercise for every politician to look in the mirror every morning and remind himself that he holds office only because, in a two-man race against another mediocrity, a modest majority of those half-informed people who imagined that their votes mattered reckoned that he was the lesser evil. And they weren't too sure about that." -- Joseph Sobran
So, if you have the Merciful Spell Metamagic Feat...it adds 0 levels to your spell, AND you have the Trait called Magical Linage. It says that for a single selected spell, consider it's level to be 1 level lower.
So now you have a non-lethal Magic Missile spell that is a 0 level spell. So, you could cast it every round, without limit, right?
I'm not entirely sure but by a quick read here that's even LESS of a potential problem than just the trait... Considering it makes a 1st level spell a 0... which is infinite freebies by PFRPG rules, those magic missiles are way more scary than the non-lethal ones... I would actually commend a pc fro making his infinite mms nonlethal and cutting down a potentially bit of awesome... This all is considering that I don't know the trait well so I'm just speculating here.
I recall reading that a spell's effective level can never be lowered beyond level 1. Unfortunately I don't remember if it was in the Core Rulebook, or a clarification posted on the boards.
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also even if you could make magic missile a ) level spell, its still not a "cantrip" and not eligible for the at will spammyness that a "cantrip" is, it may technically be a 0 level spell but casters dont get any 0 level spell slots so it becomes uncastable. you're best off casting it as a 1st level spell so you CAN cast it
its the "circumventing the rules pullin a 180 and biting you in the @$$" syndrome.
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A 1st Level spell is not listed as a cantrip or orison, thus it can not be cast infinitely.
CantripsWizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from an opposition school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).
AND
Orisons
Clerics can prepare a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Cleric under “Spells per day.” These spells are treated like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again
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Very intresting idea. But as been pointed out you need to look at things closly.
Magical Lineage: One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
So this only applies when used with meta magic feats. So as the OP says use Merciful Spell
Merciful Spell (Metamagic)
Your damaging spells subdue rather than kill. Benefit: You can alter spells that inflict damage to
inflict nonlethal damage instead. Spells that inflict damage of a particular type (such as f ire) inflict
nonlethal damage of that same type. A merciful spell does not use up a higher-level spell slot than the spell’s actual level.
Quoted material here....
Which doesnt alter the spells level so it would saty the same level ie -1 when used on a spell stated under Magical Lineage
So we have a spell that is turned into a 0-level spell through the above, so we look at what happens with 0-level spells.
Cantrips: Sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table 3–15 under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table 3–16 under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again
Now both these only state how many spells can be cast not what spells can be cast, which is a diffrent list showing the actual 0-level spells. And as other spells altered by metamagic arent shown on these lists we must assume that they change the rules somewhat.
So I have to say that a magical lineage magic missile under the effects of the merciful metamagic feat would be classed as a 0-level spell but does that mean it falls under the unlimited casts per day.
Metamagic Feats
As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to etamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
So it isnt actually anything but a 1-level spell so wouldnt be classed as a cantrip for unlimited spells per day.
Just my thoughts I could be wrong but I seem to have my logical head on at the moment.
Would have been brilliant for my force missile mage but hay rules is rules.
Immortalis, everything you say is right, except the second last sentence.
If "this does not change the level of the spell" would mean that you use the initial lvl to determine what "x spells per day you use", then a maximized magic missile would still use up a first lvl spell.
But what you quote does change something, with the trick of this post, you can fire unlimited magic missiles, which have DC (okay, they don't) but are dispelled and everything like lvl 1 spells!
Another interpretation might be, that as they are lvl 1 spells, but use lvl 0 spells per day table, has a problem, because lvl 0 spells per day table doesn't exist.
RAW only mentions what happens with lvl 0 spells.
However the "level of the spell" and such things is not 100% clear. So as you can use both interpretations (it ain't possible, or unlimited times and counts as lvl 1), I hope that Paizo has an answer to this.
Probably the "it ain't possible" (but that only works for lvl1 to 0 spells), or an errata.
easy to say, and a reasonable houserule
but you are making it a bit easy, we try to discuss by the rules as written for the moment
are you basing yourself on rules or on the statement of paizo members in this forum?
I agree. Both arguements are very valid. It could use a 0-level slot (which is a cantrip slot) and hence be cast unlimited times a day, as a cantrip.
Or... it is treated as a 1st level spell, taking up 1 0-level spell slot for 1 casting, only.
Personally, I would rule that a spell cannot be reduced below it's original level. Otherwise, it's a very potent spell. It becomes better than a normal magic missile. Knock 'em out with a butt-load of non-lethal damage, then coup de grace or tie them up. Either way, I feel that it would upset game balance, so I would rule that it can't be done.
Magical Lineage was from an out-dated (rules-wise) source, so I doubt they remembered it when they wrote the newer material.
Paizo really needs to make a decision on this one.
I agree Leonhart it isnt easy with things like this as you do end up going round in circles. Personnally I would just say no as cantrips/0-level spells do have special rules so making another level spell 0-level so as to use the unlimited rule just doesnt feel right. I think the cantrips discripyion is a bit missleading really as spells per day and spells known are not the spell lists which would make it easier to rule I think. As in these are your cantrips these and only these can be cast unlimmited.
Would be good to get an official ruling though :)
A 1st-level spell is a 1st-level spell, even if you accept a rules reading that allows it to use a 0th level slot. Only 0-level spells are cantrips, and only cantrips are usable at will; moreover, 0-level spell slots don't actually exist in Pathfinder. Infinite 1st-level spells is impossible. Period.
Funny...
The word b-u-t-t was censored. It's an actual unit of measure. A b-u-t-t is about 100 gallons.
No adjustment to metamagic can lower the spell to beneath it's original level. No matter how you gimcracky it magic missle is a first level spell.
Except the metamagic isn't what is being adjusted in this case, the Trait specifically says the SPELL's level, not the level adjustment.
This is a pretty cool debate, and I appreciate everyone keeping it civil! :)
On one hand you can say, "so what?" It is a spell that does non-lethal damage, and at most would inflict 5d4+5 per round, and that would be at 9th level. At that point any fighter would easily outpace you and be doing lethal damage. There is a magic item specifically to defend against Magic Missiles, spell resistance still applies, AND another 1st level spell (Shield) defends against Magic Missiles, so what's the big deal?
On the other hand, you have a possible broken combo. But even then, it is extremely limited in it's application, and it isn't like someone could bring a Fireball down to 0 level and blast those every round.
I, honestly, can see both sides, and I was just curious on what others thought. Let's keep the debate going, although right now, based on the strong facts presented by Immortalis, the "Allow It" camp is winning.
Windquake
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"It would be a healthy exercise for every politician to look in the mirror every morning and remind himself that he holds office only because, in a two-man race against another mediocrity, a modest majority of those half-informed people who imagined that their votes mattered reckoned that he was the lesser evil. And they weren't too sure about that." -- Joseph Sobran
By RAW, this is legitimate, actually.
Hats off to a good loophole.
I, honestly, can see both sides, and I was just curious on what others thought. Let's keep the debate going, although right now, based on the strong facts presented by Immortalis, the "Allow It" camp is winning.
You may want to reread what Immortalis actually wrote.
So it isnt actually anything but a 1-level spell so wouldnt be classed as a cantrip for unlimited spells per day.
If you want to allow it in your game, feel free, but the RAW is absolutely against you.
Seems legal by RAW. Seriously doubt that's RAI though.
Seems legal by RAW. Seriously doubt that's RAI though.
Because the trait uses the wording "treat [the spell's] actual level as one lower for the purpose of determining the spell's final adjusted level", I have to concur that order of operations does result in a Magical Lineage (Magic Missile) Merciful Magic Missile winding up as a 0-level spell, under RAW. (I agree that it's probably not RAI.)
Consider: the trait applies to Magic Missile, so when calculating the final adjusted level of Magic Missile, we consider Magic Missile to be one level lower. (1-1=0). Then we apply metamagic feat(s) to it, in this case, Merciful Spell (0 level adjustment). (0+0=0). Thus, this spell is a 0-level spell. The math and logic do support the result.
Rationally, while this was not intended, it does represent significant expenditure of resources on the part of the character (one of a limited number of feats, and one of two traits), and only works if the game allows Traits (which are optional), and also only works if the GM doesn't take exception. Speaking for myself, I actually would not take exception to this; it's a logical extension of the rules, and being able to spam nonlethal damage is not so game-breaking.
Then again, I freely admit that I'm one of the people that feel like Magic should be able to do Really Cool Stuff (tm)...
A modifier to a spell to make it effectively a 0-level spell for the purposes of memorization slot does not confer on that spell the cantrip or orison status. As such you could use one of your 0-level slots to memorize the spell but it would be gone once you cast the spell.
The result being you've got a 0-level method for subduing one relatively weak creature at the cost of being stuck with 1 less cantrip for the day.
A modifier to a spell to make it effectively a 0-level spell for the purposes of memorization slot does not confer on that spell the cantrip or orison status. As such you could use one of your 0-level slots to memorize the spell but it would be gone once you cast the spell.
The rules don't seem to support this. 0-level spells don't have any special identifiers in their descriptions that say they're "cantrips" or can be cast without expending a slot. Instead, the "unexpended cantrip" ability is part of the wizard's (and other caster's) spell casting, where "cantrips" are defined as 0-level spells.
I conclude that, RAW, any spell that can be placed in a 0-level spell slot can be cast without expending it.I would never allow this in my game, but then I don't allow traits in my game. Still, if this was not the intent, then Magical Lineage needs to specify that the spell slot minimum is the spell's original level, or level 1, or somesuch.
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However per RAW Metamagic Feats:
"This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up."
So this would not work per RAW. The Level of the spell does not change when a metamagic feat is applied. Only the type of slot it takes up. Ie an Empower Fireball uses a 5th level spell slot, but is still a 3rd level spell.
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I vaguely recall some similar shenanigans in 3.X as well, eventually 'clarified' as being incapable of reducing a spell's effective level below it's original level.
The game could totally use some 'mini-magic' feats that reduce various characteristics of spells (such as range, or minimizing damage), to reduce the effective level of the spell, but only to offset the cost of other metamagics...
So you could cast a Shortened (reduced to Close range, -1 level) Empowered (1.5 damage, +2 levels) magic missile as a 2nd level spell, but not a Shortened magic missile as a cantrip, since it would never go below 1st level.
There are no such things as 0-level spell slots in Pathfinder.
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There are no such things as 0-level spell slots in Pathfinder.
Clerics, wizards, and druids all have (at first level) 3 level "0" spells per day, that they can cast a max total of 14400 number of times in that day (well infinite, but that is worked off of a 24 hour day).
How do these not qualify as spell slots? They are marked as "Spells per day" in the table just like the rest of the cleric/wizard/druid spells...
Take a look at the wizard class page in the PRD and see for yourself. The "cantrips" and "orisons" are separate class abilities that effect how those level "0" spell slots are used and treated. The class feature in fact says that they are cast like any other spell, but that it is not used up when cast.
thus if your GM allows this to drop the spell to level "0" it then falls into the range for the "cantrip" class feature.
There are no such things as 0-level spell slots in Pathfinder.
There are 3 or 4 0-level slots. It just happens that those 3 to 4 slots are taken up with spells that don't get expended when you cast them. These spells are explicitly 0-level spells.
A metamagic spell is still a level x spell it just potentially requires a higher (or lower) level spell slot to memorize. This trait allows you to memorize a metamagic spell as one level lower than it could otherwise be memorized.
Just because this spell would be theoretically placed in a 0-level spell slot should not automatically qualify it for unlimited casting. Personally if I allowed it at all (typically I rule that negative modifiers cannot reduce the level of a spell below it's original level) then it would eat up a 0-level slot but be a single use spell.
In general metamagic cost reducers should've never been introduced into 3.x (they allow rampant powergaming) and knowing the impact in 3.x definitely should've never been incorporated into the Pathfinder rules.
There are no such things as 0-level spell slots in Pathfinder.Clerics, wizards, and druids all have (at first level) 3 level "0" spells per day, that they can cast a max total of 14400 number of times in that day (well infinite, but that is worked off of a 24 hour day).
So what exactly is it that sorcerers, bards, oracles, inquisitors, and summoners get? They have spell slots for all of the other spell levels, why is it that the sponcasters don't have them for 0-level ones?
The answer, of course, is that 0-level spells are something else entirely. Even for prepcasters, the spells per day listing for 0-level spells isn't spell slots - because they aren't expended, you can't expend them for purposes that allow you to expend spell slots, and you can't put anything in them except cantrips/orisons (even with -1 level metamagic tricks) according to the cantrip/orison class abilities.
Bards learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells
Doesn't the fact the the word "or" is in that particular spot in the sentence state that cantrips and 0-level spells are the same thing, and doesn't that mean that if a 1st level spell becomes a 0 level spell it also becomes a cantrip, cantrip being another word for 0 level arcane spell according to that sentence. I say yes by RAW this is very possible.