The problem, and the solution is all in our heads

[Mistah Green]

ProfessorCirno wrote:

My point is, the claim was made that "all warriors do in MMOs is tank," and that couldn't be farther from the truth.

Even if the game doesn't force it, players still do. Or try to anyways. If you're expected to do x, and you don't, good luck getting any groups. X can be anything from 'tank' to 'DPS' to 'dance the Macarena', they took you because they wanted the job done and expect you to deliver.

These expectations persist in a much milder form in tabletop, where it's simply an expectation that you will contribute meaningfully and pull your weight with the party. So if you make a Wizard who foregoes the good spells in favor of stuff like Fireball, or a melee character who can't DPS well enough, or an anything with bad Con good luck staying with that group. Either circumstances will require that character leave, such as dying as a direct result of not having enough HP or the group will ask/insist/force the character to leave, with the exact method depending on the group composition but the end result (you can't run with them anymore) remaining the same.

[meatrace]

cfalcon wrote:

Fair point. But there is no guy in WoW who can tank and dps at the same time, for instance. He can, between bosses, press "change spec", and then switch his gear, and do the other job.

*cough* Death Knight *cough*

I remember, maybe 3 months after LK release, a frost DK tank being #1 DPS (about 8k) in Vault. But I digress.

[Snorter]

Richard Leonhart wrote:

I partially agree with the beginning statement.

I agree that way too many people think that because the magus is no better than other base (or core) classes, he is not worth choosing. That's min/maxer talk, an not really what an RPG should be about.

However I think that the Magus still lacks style. He must have one free hand to cast, even if he doesn't need it to cast, that makes no sense.

Like, with a verbal-only spell (eg Teleport)?

[ciretose]

james maissen wrote:

Let's go with level 4. For the low levels it should be the best bet for the magus to shine- he hasn't lost another BAB, he just got arcane weapon, and his casting is really at its peak, while the other classes are about to gain a good deal in the next 1-2 levels (especially when stat boosters come online).

For comparisons I offer two classes, I'm assuming flanking for the rogue and a reasonable target in terms of AC:

I'm going to level down my Magus from the other thread, but I would also refer you to this very well done thread.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/ultimateMagicPlaytest/round1/standardisedPlaytestFeedbackForMagusInActua lPlay

But for mine, here are the stats, I'll comment at the end.

18 Str (16 + 2 for Human)
12 Dex
14 Con
8 Wis (7 + 1 at 4th)
16 Int
8 Cha

HP = 32

Feats (Combat Casting, Weapon Focus, Power Attack]

+1 Longsword
+1 Chain Shirt

Attack is 10, 12 if flanking for comparison (BAB +3, +4 Str, +1 Magic, +1 Arcane bond, 1 weapon focus)

Melee damage will be 1d8+6, or 1d8+8 with Power Attack.

AC is only 16 (1 dex, 4 Chain, +1 magic)

Spells
0 – Light, Acid Splash, Flare, Ray of Frost
1 – Enlarge Person, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Magic Missile
2 – Invisibility, Scorching Ray

Magus Arcana: Concentration

Concentration check is at +8, I need a 15 for 0 level, 17 for first and 19 for 2nd, with one re-roll a day at an additional +4 for a total of +12. I would likely always use this to try at least a 0 level spell, as there is no loss if I fail, but you can decide how to incorporate that 1d3 of ray of frost or acid splash.

You are assuming the rogue is flanking, which means the rogue generally is taking a round to get into flanking position or holding until someone else is there to flank with him. This is the rogues penalty for using a class feature.

I am also wondering what the TWF feat is, but I'm sure it's legit.

I would also probably get a +1 ring of protection, but you didn't for yours so I'll just play as is.

Shocking grasp and scorching ray are both 4d6 at this level, and invisibility is particularly useful at this level, given most things can't overcome it. Shield is per minute, which could get me up with the rogue for AC (higher if I have the Ring of Protection) enlarge person and magic missile are just nice little things to have.

I also have 20 skill points at this level, less than the rogue, more than the fighter.

As I have said on other threads, I think they need to make combat casting part of the build, but it isn't so this is the build as it is.

I would also disagree that 4th is a "good" magus level. 5th gets two feats (one regular and one bonus) as well as another 2nd level at 5th, but this is where we play and the point is to look at each level fairly, so I submit for discussion.

[F. Castor]

ciretose wrote:

I am also wondering what the TWF feat is, but I'm sure it's legit.

Two-Weapon Fighting.

[james maissen]

ciretose wrote:

But for mine, here are the stats, I'll comment at the end.

18 Str (16 + 2 for Human)
12 Dex
14 Con
8 Wis (7 + 1 at 4th)
16 Int
8 Cha

HP = 32

Feats (Combat Casting, Weapon Focus, Power Attack]

+1 Longsword
+1 Chain Shirt

Attack is 10, 12 if flanking for comparison (BAB +3, +4 Str, +1 Magic, +1 Arcane bond, 1 weapon focus)

Melee damage will be 1d8+6, or 1d8+8 with Power Attack.

AC is only 16 (1 dex, 4 Chain, +1 magic)

Spells
0 – Light, Acid Splash, Flare, Ray of Frost
1 – Enlarge Person, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Magic Missile
2 – Invisibility, Scorching Ray

Magus Arcana: Concentration

Concentration check is at +8, I need a 15 for 0 level, 17 for first and 19 for 2nd, with one re-roll a day at an additional +4 for a total of +12. I would likely always use this to try at least a 0 level spell, as there is no loss if I fail, but you can decide how to incorporate that 1d3 of ray of frost or acid splash.

Okay, first off you've spent only 3600ish gold so you have 2400gp left, so by all means include the ring of protection +1. So your AC is 17, and once a day you can cast a spell to bring it up to 21.

Secondly your concentration check is +11 (4combat casting, 4level, 3INT).

Third, your stats I'm having trouble with figuring. It's a 20 point buy.. and you've spent for a 16 (10pts), 16 (10pts), 14 (5pts), 12 (2pts), 8(-2pts), and 7 (-4pts) for 21points. I think you need to adjust a tad.

If you prefer to do 5th that's fine, both PCs pick up stat boosters which increases the fighter's damage a goodly amount. Likewise the fighter picks up +1/+1 weapon training and is just round the bend for his iterative attack. The rogue picks up another feat and +d6/attack sneak die. Both the rogue and the magus don't get BAB, but the fighter does.

If nothing else 4th is far better than 3rd for these comparisons for the magus. I think 5th tips towards the others, but perhaps the magus finally catches up on feats, having needed to invest in combat casting at the start.

Do me a favor and do out the expected damages when you are using spell combat and when you're not. As you really only have one spell that you can use each day on it you're fairly limited there.

This is a resource issue for the magus. To compete with the rogue in damage he needs to burn shocking grasps, but for AC he needs to cast shield. Already at this point the magus is burning 1 spell/round to try to keep up and you can see by his spells known he just doesn't have that depth to do more than 1-2 combats a day at that pace.

-James

[ciretose]

james maissen wrote:

Do me a favor and do out the expected damages when you are using spell combat and when you're not. As you really only have one spell that you can use each day on it you're fairly limited there.

This is a resource issue for the magus. To compete with the rogue in damage he needs to burn shocking grasps, but for AC he needs to cast shield. Already at this point the magus is burning 1 spell/round to try to keep up and you can see by his spells known he just doesn't have that depth to do more than 1-2 combats a day at that pace.

-James

My mistake on the buy, but I think I can accomplish the same thing if make Wisdom and Cha 8 (-2 each) and make the Int a 15 (7), Str 16 (10) Dex 12 (2) and Con 14 (5) with Int getting the bonus at 4th.

As to damage, Scorching Ray is going to be 4d6, as will Shocking Grasp. Magic missile is 2d4 +2

Ray of Frost and Acid Splash are both 1d3.

[james maissen]

ciretose wrote:

My mistake on the buy, but I think I can accomplish the same thing if make Wisdom and Cha 8 (-2 each) and make the Int a 15 (7), Str 16 (10) Dex 12 (2) and Con 14 (5) with Int getting the bonus at 4th.

As to damage, Scorching Ray is going to be 4d6, as will Shocking Grasp. Magic missile is 2d4 +2

Ray of Frost and Acid Splash are both 1d3.

You certainly can get those stats, and that sounds about right in terms of getting them. Just am the person to dot i's and all that, please excuse if it ever gets annoying.

As to the damage, I meant in terms of expected damage against an AC of 20/12 touch when you have flanking.

For example you would never use ray of frost/acid splash as the -4 to hit on your melee attacks would lower your melee expected damage by more than the damage from these spells would give. Do out the math yourself and you'll see.

Moreover if you are in melee then making ranged attacks (ray of frost, scorching ray) will provoke an AOO. It's not a deal breaker, but as the magus has a poor AC and doesn't have barbarian hps it should be discouraged.

But my apologies for saying that you only had one spell to use with it.. you could use more than just shocking grasp, it's just that the rest don't seem best geared for it. But please do out the expected damage with each of them.

Even if the magus were able to spell combat without a penalty to hit for the round (as I've been suggesting) its not always optimal to try to use ray of frost or the like. For an extra 1d3 damage you're either provoking an AOO, or giving up threatening your opponent (by stepping back 5' to cast it) both of which seem a bit extreme for around a 20% chance to do around 2pts more damage. At least though with this option you're not expending resources.

-James

[james maissen]

Figured I'd give a 3rd PC for comparison: the monk.

Human Monk4 Weapon Adept (APG)
STR 20 (17+2race+1bump)
INT 07
WIS 14
DEX 14
CON 14
CHA 07

Hps: 35
Feats: Perfect Strike (M), Dodge (M), Weapon Focus: Staff (M), Improved Grapple (M), Power Attack, Furious Focus, Cleave

Gear:
+1 Staff (2,300gp)
+1 ring of protection
Wand of mage armor (750gp)
Various potions & backup items totaling 950gp

AC 21/17touch (4mage armor, 2Wis, 1Monk, 1deflect, 1dodge, 2dex)
AC 17/17touch without mage armor (though it should be fairly available)
F 6
R 6
W 6
BAB 3
To hit flanking: +12 (3BAB 5STR 1Magic 1Weapon 2flank 0Powerattack)
Damage: 1d6+11, avg 14.5
Vs AC 20/12 touch expected damage: 9.425
Damage flurry: 1d6+6/1d6+4 (no PA) avg (9.5/7.5)
Vs AC 20/12 touch expected damage w/ki point & perfect strike:16.8 without either: 10

This is just thrown together.. not sure that I made decent choices for feats, but so be it.

I'm thinking that the monk is a closer match to the magus in terms of limited ability to do higher damage. You'll see that the monk excels over even the fighter for pure damage by a marginal amount for this brief ability (4x/day) but doesn't have the staying power either in hps or in AC.

When I think front line I think fighter. Others might deliver outside things and be somewhat less than a fighter at fighting.. that makes sense. The rogue can compete in the ballpark of the fighter but lacks defenses while on the other hand brings trap finding to the table. The monk can match (and slightly exceed) for a few rounds a day while having higher saves, grapple ability and yet is normally considered weak overall. The magus should when using spell combat be able to exceed the fighter at least as well as the monk.

-James

[9mm]

Richard Leonhart wrote:

I agree that way too many people think that because the magus is no better than other base (or core) classes, he is not worth choosing. That's min/maxer talk, an not really what an RPG should be about.

no it isn't min/maxer talk, it's simple reality. If I want to play a character that is good at punching people in the face, I will pick a class that is good at punching people in the face. Rules define the characters we make, they inform our choices. Want an combatant who could careless about the law, spends his time fighting injustice and healing the sick? better roll a cleric, or you'll be a sad puppy when a pally's code gets in your character's way or you have to put up with nature shature from being a ranger or druid.

the magnus currently doesn't lend itself to what it preports to be, with even a basic fighter/wisard out preforming it. in other words: if it's a face smashing class that fails to smash face, and I want to smash face, why would I be a magnus?