I was wondering if someone except me and some of my players share our opinion about those 2 new "abilities" - Come and Get Me (Ex)and Stunning Assault (Combat)
I´m running a campaign, and after the release of the APG I allowed my players to "recreate" their chars.
Because of this I have a Barbarian with those
"abilities" Come and Get Me (Ex)and Stunning Assault (Combat)
- So if i understand the rules correct, the Barb using Stunning assault
gets -5 on all attacks, deals damage has a chance of crit like normal and gets to stun the enemy for one round if he fails his save.
isn´t that somewhat much stronger than stunning crit or stunning fist because those abilities had some limitations to them, how often you can use them only by crit etc
But what bothers me the most is the new Come and Get Me (Ex), I mean WTF your enemy gets +4 on attacks and damage therefore you smack (aoe) him for every attempt he tries to hit you in melee, without cap.
So my greatsword barbarian (Dex 22) with combat reflexes gets to hit my two weapon fighting fighter who is attacking the barb 7 times at his highest attackbonus, and it is not even his turn -
Come on - who wants to play any other meleetyp after witnessing the barb doing that ?
So at the moment im thinking of ruling, these "abilities" in a fashion that the other Melee chars aren´t banned to the sidelines -
stunning assault in my opinion is quite strong even without dealing damage to the opponent - it is still a disarm with no risk for the user -
come and get me - i´m planning to allow only aoe in response to attacks which would actually hit and I´m thinking of increasing the attack and damage boni for the attackers
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I was wondering if someone except me and some of my players share our opinion about those 2 new "abilities" - Come and Get Me (Ex)and Stunning Assault (Combat)
I´m running a campaign, and after the release of the APG I allowed my players to "recreate" their chars.
Because of this I have a Barbarian with those
"abilities" Come and Get Me (Ex)and Stunning Assault (Combat)- So if i understand the rules correct, the Barb using Stunning assault
gets -5 on all attacks, deals damage has a chance of crit like normal and gets to stun the enemy for one round if he fails his save.isn´t that somewhat much stronger than stunning crit or stunning fist because those abilities had some limitations to them, how often you can use them only by crit etc
But what bothers me the most is the new Come and Get Me (Ex), I mean WTF your enemy gets +4 on attacks and damage therefore you smack (aoe) him for every attempt he tries to hit you in melee, without cap.
So my greatsword barbarian (Dex 22) with combat reflexes gets to hit my two weapon fighting fighter who is attacking the barb 7 times at his highest attackbonus, and it is not even his turn -Come on - who wants to play any other meleetyp after witnessing the barb doing that ?
There are a couple of reasons:
1. You do have to play the game for 11 levels before a barbarian has the potential to ever get that rage power at 12th level. There are lots of reasons to play other melee types for those 11 levels that may or may not outweigh the hoped-for payoff of getting that combo at that level. If you're starting at high levels it's a non-issue, of course.
2. The barbarian will get pummeled by anyone using ranged attacks.
3. The barbarian will get pummeled by anything with reach, as he can't AoO something outside of his reach
3a. #3 above can be obviated with the Strike Back feat - the only downside is that, coupled with Combat Reflexes, that's 2 of the barbarian's 6 feats at 12th level (7 if he's human) that aren't going to "pure offense" feats. Plus, for that matter, pumping resources hard into DEX vs. STR and/or CON. Is the payoff worth it? Only your doctor knows for sure... :)
4. The barbarian will get pummeled by anything with Power Attack/Deadly Aim (or Stunning Assault/Disarming Assault/etc. for that matter) - basically anything that incurs an attack roll penalty will be used with impunity against the barbarian.
5. The barbarian will get pummeled by opponents that use one hardcore attack vs. lots of smaller ones (e.g., the Vital Strike feat chain or Awesome Blow).
6. The barbarian will get pummeled by grappling opponents (which will get a +4 bonus to CMB against him), and being grappled will prevent him from using his greatsword after the first attack.
The ability is good, sure. It better be; think about it - you're talking about an equivalent ability to casters getting 6th level spells. But is it completely beyond the pale? Eh, YMMV.
As for the overpoweredness of the XYZ Assault feats in and of themselves, that's its own separate conversation.
I was wondering if someone except me and some of my players share our opinion about those 2 new "abilities" - Come and Get Me (Ex)and Stunning Assault (Combat)
I´m running a campaign, and after the release of the APG I allowed my players to "recreate" their chars.
Because of this I have a Barbarian with those
"abilities" Come and Get Me (Ex)and Stunning Assault (Combat)- So if i understand the rules correct, the Barb using Stunning assault
gets -5 on all attacks, deals damage has a chance of crit like normal and gets to stun the enemy for one round if he fails his save.isn´t that somewhat much stronger than stunning crit or stunning fist because those abilities had some limitations to them, how often you can use them only by crit etc
But what bothers me the most is the new Come and Get Me (Ex), I mean WTF your enemy gets +4 on attacks and damage therefore you smack (aoe) him for every attempt he tries to hit you in melee, without cap.
So my greatsword barbarian (Dex 22) with combat reflexes gets to hit my two weapon fighting fighter who is attacking the barb 7 times at his highest attackbonus, and it is not even his turn -Come on - who wants to play any other meleetyp after witnessing the barb doing that ?
There are a couple of reasons:
1. You do have to play the game for 11 levels before a barbarian has the potential to ever get that rage power at 12th level. There are lots of reasons to play other melee types for those 11 levels that may or may not outweigh the hoped-for payoff of getting that combo at that level. If you're starting at high levels it's a non-issue, of course.
2. The barbarian will get pummeled by anyone using ranged attacks.
3. The barbarian will get pummeled by anything with reach, as he can't AoO something outside of his reach
3a. #3 above can be obviated with the Strike Back feat - the only downside is that, coupled with Combat Reflexes, that's 2 of the barbarian's 6 feats at 12th level (7 if he's human) that...
I agree with Jason--for me, Come and Get Me and that Greater Beast Totem power where you get to Pounce were a breath of fresh air. The Barbarian in PF suffered from frontloaded power--a massive juggernaut at low levels and a disappointment later on. These powers really help level the playing field at later levels.
Aside for those others interested--why does this happen to our old friend Barbara the Barbarian? Well he starts with the ability to temporarily get +4 Str, or +2 to hit and +2 or probably +3 to damage (with an AC penalty). This increase at level 10 to +3 to hit and +3 or +4 to damage and then at 20 to +4 to hit and +4 or +6 to damage. Meanwhile, Fiona the Fighter starts with no extras to cancel the Rage (assuming they both took Weapon Focus), but at level 4 she gets +2 damage all day, at level 5 she gets another +1 to hit and damage, at level 8 another +1 to hit, and at level 9 another +1 to hit and damage, so she's at +3 to hit and +4 to damage at level 9 all day long to Barbara's +2 to hit +3 to damage sometimes. Then Barbara's ability increases at level 10 to +3 to hit +4 to damage sometimes, but Fiona gets 2 more damage at level 12, +1 to hit and damage at level 13, and another +1 to hit and damage at level 17, putting her at +5 to hit and +8 to damage all day, with no AC penalty. Assuming that the Fighter feats cancel the Rage powers, the Barbarian is looking really sad without some love. And the designer of those abilities (from my empirical data so far of who designed both the coolest and the most controversial bits of the AP other than the new base classes, this was probably Jason N.) took that into consideration, which is great.
I´m quite aware that "come and get me" can be evaded by certain builds of enemy´s lets say reach ranged attackers casters etc - but my point is that it is nearly impossible to beat such a barbarian in melee and that´s the main reason i find this ability way overboard - as stated out you have to get to level 12 before you are able to pick this ability, but once you reached lvl 12 and you get this ability you don´t have to fullfill any requirements or the like you just pick the ability - a two-weapon fighting char has to give up 3 feats just to get 3 extra attacks, and you get an amount technically only limited by your dex and the number of attacks your enemy is capable of using and that as AoO at full bonus.
In a sense i get your point, i mean you actually don´t have to make a full attack against the barb after he hit you before your first attack resolved. So against some "intelligent" enemys this ability will only prevent them from using a full attack against the barb so he gets per "standard attack" a "free attack" against you considering you also prevent him from using a full attack against you. - pretty reasonable -exspecially with the +4 bonus
Well the more I think about it .....
There are a couple of reasons:
3. The barbarian will get pummeled by anything with reach, as he can't AoO something outside of his reach
3a. #3 above can be obviated with the Strike Back feat - the only downside is that, coupled with Combat Reflexes, that's 2 of the barbarian's 6 feats at 12th level (7 if he's human) that aren't going to "pure offense" feats. Plus, for that matter, pumping resources hard into DEX vs. STR and/or CON. Is the payoff worth it? Only your doctor knows for sure... :)
4. The barbarian will get pummeled by anything with Power Attack/Deadly Aim (or Stunning Assault/Disarming Assault/etc. for that matter) - basically anything that incurs an attack roll penalty will be used with impunity against the barbarian.
5. The barbarian will get pummeled by opponents that use one hardcore attack vs. lots of smaller ones (e.g., the Vital Strike feat chain or Awesome Blow).
6. The barbarian will get pummeled by grappling opponents (which will get a +4 bonus to CMB against him), and being grappled will prevent him from using his greatsword after the first attack.
To these things - it is true that in an ideal world this would all be valid options but have you considered how hard lots of these things are against a barb even at the +4 - i mean the CMD of the barb is somewhat unreal (if you want to use come and get me effective you have to have a high dex, and strength you get full bab and rage combined with some magic items (Ring of deflection belt of physical superiority) you would have rather easily a CMD of around 50 at lvl 16, while your opponents would have a hard time to get their CMB even close to 40) - i mean to put come and get me to optimal use your barb is using two handed weapon meaning +1,5 strenght multip. to damage and "high" base damage combined with rage with rage, you will probably do not "that" much more damage, ok if you use vital strike in addition to this and you yourself use a two handed weapon you will most likely outdamege the barb - but what is preventing him from using the same things against you ? (considering you only let him standard attack you) if he full attacks he is clearly at an advantage.
- One of the Problems I have (luckily the barb is the at the moment the one and only melee typ char within my group) is the Potenz comparison between the classes - you state out that in regard to the fighter this "power up" of the Barbar is valid, but if i remember correctly the Fighter was labeled as far too strong.
So what about the other classes -
"do i have to tell the players, hmm the apg closed the power gap between the fighter and the barb, and the others with full bab, are left behind so if you don´ want to make an archer or something with high reach, and you don´t want to watch in the fights play barb or fighter."
- sarkasm, i couldn´t resist - sorry -
- back to one of my main points it was posted that szunning assault is an other matter, but stunning assault combined ist exactly what i wanted to have discussed, then the Barb is exactly using this in combination with "come and get me" -
and with all respect that is either way you look at it way too powerful or am i wrong ????
- back to one of my main points it was posted that szunning assault is an other matter, but stunning assault combined ist exactly what i wanted to have discussed, then the Barb is exactly using this in combination with "come and get me" -
and with all respect that is either way you look at it way too powerful or am i wrong ????
I not sure if you all get what i´m implying -
your enemy attacks the come and get me using barb who stated he would use stunning assault (evtl - remaining of his last attack round), so you attack -> the barb gets his AoO prior to your attack with his stunning assault on it -> he hits deals damage and you have to save or you are stunned.So in this case the barb "dispelled" your attack, which was the reason in the first place that he got the AoO at you. - you get damage are stunned and the barb is unscratched ?!?!?!?!
I not sure if you all get what i´m implying -
your enemy attacks the come and get me using barb who stated he would use stunning assault (evtl - remaining of his last attack round), so you attack -> the barb gets his AoO prior to your attack with his stunning assault on it -> he hits deals damage and you have to save or you are stunned.So in this case the barb "dispelled" your attack, which was the reason in the first place that he got the AoO at you. - you get damage are stunned and the barb is unscratched ?!?!?!?!
Stunned
A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).Attackers receive a +4 bonus on attack rolls to perform combat maneuvers against a stunned opponent.
Oh yeah and above all you get disarmed at no risk for the barb to be dissarmed himself. - by the way I was asking myself can you SEE that the barb is using come and get me ?
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If a CaGM Barbarian is witnessed using this tactic, other enemies could obviously take that into account. I don`t think there`s really anything to notice about a Barbarian who has `declared` they are using CaGM, other than that they seem extra readied against any attack if a Sense Motive check is made (I don`t think that would discern CaGM vs. a Readied Attack Action though).
The thing is that there`s plenty of other valid tactics to use againwt a CaGM Barbarian...
Sending swarms of Summons or Mooks will use up the Barb`s AoO`s or he will have to allow their attacks WITH HIS AC PENALTY FROM DECLARING THE ABILITY. If the Barb is not taking AoO`s because he wants to `save` them for the Fighter, said Fighter can just hold back and let the Swarms/Mooks do the job if the Barb is letting them attack. Now being surrounded, the Barbarian is at the least probably going to draw alot of AoO`s (if he can move at all) if he tries to maneuver to attack the Fighter on his own turn... (Which leaves the Fighter able to Full Attack next turn vs. the Barb`s single attack, presuming the Mooks impeded a Charge even if it was a Pounce Barbarian)
Fighter types who want to taken on the Barb might want to use Combat Expertise to buff their AC to the max, with Armor Training and good AC the Barb`s AoO`s may well miss... In addition, there are other options like the Duelist`s Parry ability. And the thing about all the new APG options is that many give up Uncanny Dodge, meaaning the Barbarian can indeed be Flat Footed and thus unable to take Attacks of Opportunities.
I find it really really strange that somebody would complain that Fighters and Barbarians are now on par as kings of melee, and that it`s impossible to compete with them via other classes... That`s exactly what I would expect to be that case, and I`m pretty sure that was Paizo`s explicit aim. Not withstanding that Paladin Smite of course ROCKS, that Ranger Favored Enemy`s are DEAD MEAT, and the plethora of other classes with signifigant combat bonuses.
Stunning Assault is very nice, but the penalty is steep and the Stunning Critical Feat certainly has it`s advantages as well (no penalty/ no declaring, NO SAVE). As mentioned, this is the physical combatant`s version of 6th level spells... They NEED tools like this at high level.
Regarding Jason Nelson`s points:
- The Strike Back Feat is worded such that it requires READYING an attack. I agree it would make much more sense to also allow it to work when Reach Attacks provoke an AoO while attacking you (e.g. those using a Reach Trip Weapon without having Improved Trip), but I don`t see that in the current wording... Errata/FAQ???
- I`m not 100% certain on this, but would ANY AoO triggered by a Maneuver (like Grapple) apply the damage as penalty to CMB? That is something that might be a good FAQ/Errata to be put to those at Paizo... To me, it seems very reasonable if a creature has a defensive ability making ANY Maneuver against them provoke regardless of Improved X/Grab/etc, that if successful the AoO would apply it`s damage as penalty to opponent`s CMB just like a normal AoO vs. a Grappler without Improved Grapple.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Good catch on Strike Back - it only works on a ready.
In other words, CaGM is useless against foes with reach, which is probably 2/3 of monsters at 12th level and above. They just get +4 to hit and damage vs. you and you get nothing vs. them. You could get enlarge person cast on you, though it hurts your DEX, and a fair number of high-level monsters are still going to outreach you.
My statement about Stunning Assault (etc.) being a separate discussion was mainly because I didn't write those and so don't know the thought process behind them. Still, if you set yourself on Power Attack mode (-4 to hit at 12th level) and Stunning Attack (-5)... you're at -9 to hit on all of those AoOs. That's a pretty hefty attack penalty to take. Against the ACs of the things you are likely to be fighting, you might very well miss pretty often on your AoOs.
The relevance of Combat Reflexes and high DEX is that it makes for a very MAD barbarian. Your 12th level barbarian has a 22 Dex. At that level, a +4 Dex item is most likely, meaning you have a base Dex of 18, maybe as low as 16 if you have a +6 item (36K if it's pure DEX). That stat bonus item takes up the same slot as your STR/CON item, so unless you are kicking one of those stats entirely you are spending
Your WBL at 12th level is 108,000. If you just have a +6 DEX item, that's 1/3 of your WBL on that alone, dough that could've been spent on maxing your STR (damage) or CON (hp).
You could have a double +6 belt (90K) or a triple +4 belt (64K), but every gp spent on stats is less gp to spend on your weapon or armor or anything else.
If you rolled stats, you might have just gotten lucky, and good on ya!
If you are using the "new standard" of point buy, to get a 16 or 18 DEX requires a pretty huge investment in your stat points, to the point that you are going to have to gimp STR or CON by comparison, unless you're an elf (CON penalty = not likely) or halfling (STR penalty = not likely). Even if you human/half-human and put your +2 stat bonus into Dex, that means you DIDN'T put that +2 into STR or CON.
If you go full retard, 7 in INT and CHA, 8 WIS, you have 30 BP to spread around, so you could have 16 STR, DEX, and CON. Add in 2 point racial bonus to DEX and you're there. Add your 3 level mod bonuses to STR, and you're still good... but you're going to be 4 points of STR behind the barb who specializes there for damage, or 4 points of CON behind the barb who goes for max hp.
And all of you will have crap skills and Will save, but that's a separate issue.
The point is this:
Both from a gear perspective and a stats perspective, it is of course possible for a barbarian to go all in for DEX, but the opportunity cost of doing it is pretty high and results in some minuses for you vs. other directions you could choose.
Going high-DEX as a barbarian for lots of Combat Reflexes and AoOs is a reasonably good choice, but I don't think it's an absolute lock as the uber killer build.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Another way of looking at it is this:
Come and Get Me is the barbarian version of fire shield.
It does damage fairly reliably to anyone who attacks you in melee.
Creatures with reach don't take damage from it.
Some creatures will avoid some or all damage from it anyway (fire shield if they're immune/resistant to fire/cold have SR, CaGM if you miss your AoO and/or they have DR/you don't have it).
Each has the potential for an extra effect (FS protects vs. cold/fire damage, the AoOs from CaGM can be used with extra abilities).
FS also affects an infinite number of enemies that attack you and so is death to mob attacks; CaGM works against however many AoOs you have available.
The difference:
A wizard can cast FS at 7th level.
A barbarian can't do CaGM+Stunning Assault until 17th level!!!!
TEN LEVELS LATER. And it's only arguably better than fire shield, not clearly better (you could also use empowered fire shield to keep its damage up).
All this time we were talking about doing this trick at 12th, and you can't do it until 17th (cuz you get feats at odd levels; you can do 16th if you multiclass into fighter or some other class that gets a bonus feat at exactly 16th level), because Stunning Assault has a +16 BAB minimum.
This isn't the equivalent of a 6th level spell, it's the equivalent of a NINTH LEVEL SPELL for a single-classed barbarian.
So:
1. Requires three feats to use (Combat Reflexes, PA, Stunning Assault).
2. Only applies when you're raging.
3. Lets your enemies get a +4 penalty to their attack and damage rolls against you.
4. Applies a -10 penalty to your attack rolls (if you're doing PA+SA), or -5 if you just SA.
5. Is useless against ranged attacks.
6. Is useless against opponents with greater reach than you (which is most things you fight at 17th level)
7. Requires you to go somewhat MAD into DEX as a barbarian, which cuts into your resource investment for STR/CON and other items. This might be a good investment, but it is a cost in a zero-sum game.
The effect *IS* good. It's powerful. I have no argument with that point whatsoever.
I also would reiterate that it has some pretty significant limitations and drawbacks.
To sum up, with all of the above limitations it had darn well better be powerful. It is virtually the capstone ability of your character. Why the bleep shouldn't it be awesome?
1. Requires three feats to use (Combat Reflexes, PA, Stunning Assault).
2. Only applies when you're raging.
3. Lets your enemies get a +4 penalty to their attack and damage rolls against you.
4. Applies a -10 penalty to your attack rolls (if you're doing PA+SA), or -5 if you just SA.
5. Is useless against ranged attacks.
6. Is useless against opponents with greater reach than you (which is most things you fight at 17th level)
7. Requires you to go somewhat MAD into DEX as a barbarian, which cuts into your resource investment for STR/CON and other items. This might be a good...
I get your point - this is suppoesed to be the capstone of the barbarian´s fighting capabilities.
But nonetheless i find it far too strong.It is true that this equals the 9th level spells of casters, but you can´t use spells without limitations you get only to cast them a few times a day, the barb doesn´t.
If someone saves against your spell nearly all of them do nothing but fizzle, stunning assault on the other hand deals damage and
you have a chance to even crit despite he saved.
And you also have to consider the save DC of the spells 10+ability-mod+spelllvl+misc
even a 9th lvl spell from a caster who gets +6 on his attribut rarely comes above 29 - you could point out that you only use spells against the opponents weak saves - so you never use a fortitude save spell agaisnt a fighter etc -
whereas stunning assault has a fortitude save which is the strong save of all Melee classes -
but as caster you usually don´t have the luxury of considering this - in most cases you have to use what´s left -
(we discussed the downsides an weaknesses of this combination, so like any other ability you can get around it) but my point is, that you can´t beat it on equal terms, meaning in a one and one match except you have this barb mirror fight himself.
Lets discuss the Scenario of the "optimized" Melee chars one is the Barb and the other a fighter.Both lvl 20.
Barb:
Str:17+2race(human)+5lvlup+6belt+8rage=38
Dex:16+6belt=22
Wielding a two handed weapon - lets say +5magic
meaning attack: 20bab+14str+1waeponfocus+5weapon=40/35/30/25
this means stunning assault at 35/30/25/20 - AoO at 35 stunning
CMD=10+20+14+6+5(ring of deflection)=55
Save DC fpr stunning assault 30Fort:
Fighter:
Str:17+2race(human)+5lvlup+6belt=30
Dex:14+6belt=30
Konst:16+6belt=22
Wielding whatever weapons you like, (but in this case no shield)
That means:
AC:10+14armor(magic+5)+5dex(armor trainig)+5(ring of defelction)+5(amulett of natural armor)=39
plus evtl shield or +1 through dodge or two weapon defense.
His fortitude save would be 12+6(ko-mod)+5(cloak of resistance)=23
CMB:20+10+4(evtuell feats)=34
None of them is using reachwepons or Lunge.
and i didn´t consider crit hits - would only add to the advantage of the barb.
- So let the fight begin
If the the Fighter refraisn from using some underhanded taktik like hit and run or Spring attack (i was wondering if a spring attack, provokes no AoO from CaGM) or something like that.
Normally the barb would start (higher dex), so he declares he is using stunning assault an CaGM
Sceanrio1: The barb walks to the fighter an attacks him considering he is using no shield the barb hits at approx 75% - so the fighter has to save or be stunned he saves at around 65%
a) he gets stunned -> he drops everything loses his turn and its the barbs turn -> he is dead meat (even if he got lucky and the barb was´nt able the stun him in the following round again - highly unlikely - because he provokes at least one attack of opportunity by getting back his weapon(s) and also because of the stunning (takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC) the probabilty for the barb to hit goes up to 100 percent with the first attack (the fighters AC decreases by 7)) so the fighter has to save at least 2 times - because the barb will of course full attack him.
even if is able to avoid getting stunned again - the barb has inflicted a whole lot of damage.
b)1.the fighter doesn´t get stunned so he tries a comabt manoveur, trip disarm whatever - it will probably fail he has a 20% chance to succed. - if you succed you could have a chance of winning.
2. he full attacks -> the barb gets to attack him an equall amount of times he is capable of with the probability of him stunning the fighter. the funny part - the fighter tries (you actually don´t have to hit) to attack, but prior to that the barb AoO you (75% hit) with the probability to get stunned - meaning losing all other attacks and loosing your weapons.
3.the fighter standard attacks at his highest attackbonus - wheter or not this hits the barb he gets an AoO against you - if he doesn´t hit (we remeber 75% chance to hit) or you save the stunning you withdraw, and wait for the barb to follow you and standard attack you again - and so on - the moment you get stunned you lose.
instead of 3 and 4 - you can use the appropriate actions in combination with combat expertise lowering the barbs prob to hit you to approx 45%, if you have a shield you can lower this even further (for example a heavy steel shiel +5 magic with the shield specialization and imprv. shield specialization) to around 5%.
so you really can beat the barb as fighter, if you have a shield - though i never had a player who actually was using a shield -
the intressting part is - try 2 Fighters of the build without shield against the same Barb - or even 3 he will make an exceptionally good fight against them - proabably will even win because of CaGM.
and this is exactly the point where it begins to bother me beyond reason that one lvl 20 melee takes 2 or even more other lvl 20 out.
oh yeah before i forget the also some intressting point, is that the weapon mastery of the fighter which prevents you from being disarmed what i considerd really strong, is completly outdone through stunning.
okay - there are also defending weapons ....
there are also some Team feats which are able to give the fighters some advantage -
and the Fighter could also use stunning assault but unfortunately his chances to stun are lower because of the rage bonus to Konstitution.
So there are ways to get the barb in a pinch - but to be honest, i don´t want to let the barb loot the items which are necessary for a fighter to keep up with him every time a want to challenge him in Melee, without using some monster, magic or ranged attacks.
Then with CaGM are lots of "weak" melee attackers out of question - he will mince them in an instant.
and that is exactly the problem that i see -
Come and Get me is not imbalanced, especially since a barbarian can only use it while raging. It is a specific power, with limited use, and situational benefits. It's no different than things like... harm, or wail of the banshee, or a Wish or Miracle. I mean really, "For some negative effects, you may call upon deific intervention for almost limitless effects if you can convince your DM to do it as a 9th level spell" is more overpowered in my opinion than this rage power. It also requires you to have a more Dex based Barbarian, and they are not usually finesse fighters, to say the least. It is powerful, yes, as it should be. But without a powerful niche, the barbarian gets left in the dust. A properly built defensive dex based fighter could dominate a barbarian with this rage power because even a +39 atk bonus (totally possible) still has only a 25% chance of hitting a 54 AC (totally possible for the fighter). It's about character build and inventiveness. Also, remember, it is a party based game, very rarely do you ever have a 1v1, and a well crafted party will be able to overcome any single specialist if played properly. If you ask me, this is far less potent than the Paladin's Smite ability, which is just sickeningly powerful
Come and Get me is not imbalanced, especially since a barbarian can only use it while raging. It is a specific power, with limited use, and situational benefits. It's no different than things like... harm, or wail of the banshee, or a Wish or Miracle. I mean really, "For some negative effects, you may call upon deific intervention for almost limitless effects if you can convince your DM to do it as a 9th level spell" is more overpowered in my opinion than this rage power. It also requires you to have a more Dex based Barbarian, and they are not usually finesse fighters, to say the least. It is powerful, yes, as it should be. But without a powerful niche, the barbarian gets left in the dust. A properly built defensive dex based fighter could dominate a barbarian with this rage power because even a +39 atk bonus (totally possible) still has only a 25% chance of hitting a 54 AC (totally possible for the fighter). It's about character build and inventiveness. Also, remember, it is a party based game, very rarely do you ever have a 1v1, and a well crafted party will be able to overcome any single specialist if played properly. If you ask me, this is far less potent than the Paladin's Smite ability, which is just sickeningly powerful
You honestly think that rage is a limited resource - you can hold it 4+const-mod +2*(barblvl-1) rounds - that sums up really fast - so a barb lvl 17 would get close to 40 rounds in which he can use that., thats hardly a limitations.
you have a point, that there are things to come around this ability, but that i never denied - there are possibilities to get around every abilitie - even the mentioned spells above - and i consent that the final ability of the barb should be strong but it is to strong -
i mean how often can you use wail of the banshee or the like, how often does it succed against someone of the same lvl as you.
The real problem starts not like pointed out agaisnt some fighter like i stated in my last post - then they are the ones who can barely hold their ground against this - the real problem is what happens to the casters their fort base save is 6 at lvl20 - they have a hard time getteing to a bonus higher than 10 - so one single stray Barb which has the "luck" to charge through your partys Melee classes and is able to land this single strike takes the caster out for good - after his full attack the next round as sure as hell forever -
so you can argument what are the odds of this happening the caster can cast fly and whatnot else, but in most battles exspecially if you get ambushed, suprised or the battle results of some Talking to the enemys you aren´t buffed flying etc - and the Melee chars in the group don´t always stand before the casters to protect them - so they are out with absolutely no chance -
and even if you don´t get suprised etc - most of the time you as a caster have better things to do as to cast some fly spell on yourself.
So this ultra imba spells the caster posses don´t make s#~#. the caster dies having them still prepared.
So you can argument the same problem, do you have when the caster gets grappled, triped -
in case of grappled an tripped - you can learn combat manoveur defense greatly reducing the odds of something like this happening, if you still get grappled you can still cast, and your enemy doesn´t get you down in the next round - if you are tripped you can crawl away thus preventing a full attack - so you should still live.
but when you are stunning assaulted you die -
- probably one will again point out, that an CaGM Barb has some drawbacks when +4 on attacks and damage who his opponest get, but what good do these bonuses if you never can put them to use because you are stunned ?
You honestly think that rage is a limited resource - you can hold it 4+const-mod +2*(barblvl-1) rounds - that sums up really fast - so a barb lvl 17 would get close to 40 rounds in which he can use that., thats hardly a limitations.
you have a point, that there are things to come around this ability, but that i never denied - there are possibilities to get around every abilitie - even the mentioned spells above - and i consent that the final ability of the barb should be strong but it is to strong -
i mean how often can you use wail of the banshee or the like, how often does it succed against someone of the same lvl as you.
The real problem starts not like pointed out agaisnt some fighter like i stated in my last post - then they are...
Rage is a limited resource, and has limitations. For example, let's say the party decides to delay initiatives to stack their turns. The barbarian is one calm emotions spell away from a very quick undoing.
As to your point regarding ambushes... any self respecting spellcaster at high levels does not go around without day long buffs in place, as well as constantly using detection spells, alarm spells, and all sorts of other protective means/buffs. Magic items, and lots of things come into play at very high levels as well.
Your argument that the barbarian you are presenting is good at taking out one type of character aslo doesn't make it an imbalanced ability. It would be imbalanced if it WASN"T any good at taking out ANY type of character.
What you really run into is a situation the same as most classes, whoever goes first will most likely win, if they are built appropriately. Let me just see how easy it is to dominate person a non-raging barbarian here....
Yes the ability is powerful, I'm not denying that, but it would only be imbalanced if it were something that couldn't be routinely overcome, which these abilities can be.
As to your crawling away argument, ever heard of step up and following strike? Crawl away from me now.
Barbarians get Rage Powers at the same rate fighters get Combat Feats. They are essentially feats, but limited by needing to be in rage while using them. Come and Get Me would more overpowered as a feat (which actually, Robilar's Gambit from a 3.5 splat book was the exact same ability as a feat), but with so many holes in it, it is far far from overpowered.
The stunning ability is once again limited by AC, and a properly buffed magic user has a huge AC, so that -5 to hit makes a gigantic difference. So once again, I don't see this as overpowered.
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As to your point regarding ambushes... any self respecting spellcaster at high levels does not go around without day long buffs in place, as well as constantly using detection spells, alarm spells, and all sorts of other protective means/buffs. Magic items, and lots of things come into play at very high levels as well.
Even for some high level caster with magic items and buffs he would have a hard time getting a AC higher than 40.
10+8(barcers of armor)+5(ring of defelection)+5(amulett of natural armor)+5(Robe +5 AC)+dex-Mod(with belt of... around 5-6)=33+Dex=39after this you can buff yourself but there arent many spell which satck with the things you already have and even if they, is their duration at minutes per lvl - hardly something you can have 24/7.
(Seamantle Foresight - to name some)
What you really run into is a situation the same as most classes, whoever goes first will most likely win, if they are built appropriately. Let me just see how easy it is to dominate person a non-raging barbarian here....
Right - but you can use this sentence always if there is a discussion about something that is allegdly strong you only replace "dominate person" and "barbarian" with the word appropriate to the situation.
in this case (stunning assault and CaGM) the spell name would proabaly be Iron Body.As to your crawling away argument, ever heard of step up and following strike? Crawl away from me now.
okay - obiously didn´t see that one coming.
Powerful ? - !powerful was Robilar's Gambit from PHP 2! - but it was not EXACTLY the same - there was this little word AFTER underlined in the descripion, meaning the AoO resulted after the attack of the enemy, CaGM resolves BEFORE, and with stunning assault it Counters the attack which provoked the AoO - that´s beyond powerful.
And the Wizards of the Coast didn´t have !Stunning Assault! in that book or any other (if i remember correct), but they saw it as necessity to underline after - i wonder why ?!?!
Fact is - and thats what i´m trying to say the abilities stunning assault and CaGM are powerful by themselves but in Combination they are far too strong.
by the way Robilar's Gambit could be taken by any class with BAB 12+ and Combat Reflexes.
So at least between the Melee classes every one had the possibility to learn this - it wasn´t exclusive for one class
What is actually adding to the powerfulness of this.
back in 3.5 the Robilar's Gambit balanced itself out ; more or less because everyone could take it -
and now ? -
So yeah, to sum it up, i still think this combination is too strong.
And no one, so far had the arguments to convince me of the contarary.
So as a matter of fact im currently thinking of some ways, to modify these abilities that, as far as i´m concerned they are playabel.
I had a player with this build.
If it becomes too much, just do what I did: disarm him.
The captain of the city guard did this to my player's barbarian when he became unruly within the city limits (having already taken the ego out of a dozen or so city guards). My player learned very quickly that a barbarian without his weapon can't really do much in the way of offense.
I had a player with this build.
If it becomes too much, just do what I did: disarm him.
The captain of the city guard did this to my player's barbarian when he became unruly within the city limits (having already taken the ego out of a dozen or so city guards). My player learned very quickly that a barbarian without his weapon can't really do much in the way of offense.
Wow i´ve never thought this could happen - someone is actually the "same" opinion as i´am -
I appreciate that - but i´ve got a question how exactly were you able to disarm your Barb - i mean i posted it before the CMD is insanely high - an in regular troops of the city guard at least in my world, you don´´t have many high lvl NPC (depending on the number of inhabitants) that would be able to acquire such a feat like disarming the barb.
I agree with you on most points. Yes a barb with all of the above abilitys would win in a 1v1 fight against a 2hwp fighter.
But i fail to see how that makes the ability OP, as an ability shouldnt be judged in perfect conditions, and in a 1v1 arena fight. As we are talking a 20 lvl fight, you also have to take into account that the fighter will probably crit on a 15-20, with auto confirm, and with some simple assumptions on feats, he can apply stunned for 1d4 rounds, permanent blinded, or atleast dazzled and staggered conditions even if he saves both. On top of this he will also get a free disarm attempt on the barb with disarming strike, so pretty much leave the barb useless in a fight, if he manages to roll a 15-20 aka 30% each time he makes a hit.
If we try to apply these feats in a combat situation, where they fight monsters, i would argue that the fighters abilitys actually is better, as he can apply a condition even if the opponent succeds in his saves, something most enemys at lvl 20 will do vs a dc 30 fort save.
I completely agree that it is powerfull, and combined with CoGM it is very powerfull, but i wouldnt rule it out as OP, even vs a fighter. As the fighter, even if he is a 2Hwp guy, can take out a shield, and a schmitar, even use com. exp. get enough AC to prolly avoid the hits (5% hit chance for the barb), with 65% chance to save, gives 2% chance to get stunned a hit, acceptable risk i would say. and with a full attack action, once the barb is close, one roll of 15-20 and a confirm, and the barb loses the combat.
So i fail to see the need of actually nerfing this ability.
I agree with you on most points. Yes a barb with all of the above abilitys would win in a 1v1 fight against a 2hwp fighter.
But i fail to see how that makes the ability OP, as an ability shouldnt be judged in perfect conditions, and in a 1v1 arena fight. As we are talking a 20 lvl fight, you also have to take into account that the fighter will probably crit on a 15-20, with auto confirm, and with some simple assumptions on feats, he can apply stunned for 1d4 rounds, permanent blinded, or atleast dazzled and staggered conditions even if he saves both. On top of this he will also get a free disarm attempt on the barb with disarming strike, so pretty much leave the barb useless in a fight, if he manages to roll a 15-20 aka 30% each time he makes a hit.
If we try to apply these feats in a combat situation, where they fight monsters, i would argue that the fighters abilitys actually is better, as he can apply a condition even if the opponent succeds in his saves, something most enemys at lvl 20 will do vs a dc 30 fort save.
I completely agree that it is powerfull, and combined with CoGM it is very powerfull, but i wouldnt rule it out as OP, even vs a fighter. As the fighter, even if he is a 2Hwp guy, can take out a shield, and a schmitar, even use com. exp. get enough AC to prolly avoid the hits (5% hit chance for the barb), with 65% chance to save, gives 2% chance to get stunned a hit, acceptable risk i would say. and with a full attack action, once the barb is close, one roll of 15-20 and a confirm, and the barb loses the combat.
So i fail to see the need of actually nerfing this ability.
Agree.
Good catch on Strike Back - it only works on a ready.
In other words, CaGM is useless against foes with reach, which is probably 2/3 of monsters at 12th level and above. They just get +4 to hit and damage vs. you and you get nothing vs. them. You could get enlarge person cast on you, though it hurts your DEX, and a fair number of high-level monsters are still going to outreach you.
My statement about Stunning Assault (etc.) being a separate discussion was mainly because I didn't write those and so don't know the thought process behind them. Still, if you set yourself on Power Attack mode (-4 to hit at 12th level) and Stunning Attack (-5)... you're at -9 to hit on all of those AoOs. That's a pretty hefty attack penalty to take. Against the ACs of the things you are likely to be fighting, you might very well miss pretty often on your AoOs.
The relevance of Combat Reflexes and high DEX is that it makes for a very MAD barbarian. Your 12th level barbarian has a 22 Dex. At that level, a +4 Dex item is most likely, meaning you have a base Dex of 18, maybe as low as 16 if you have a +6 item (36K if it's pure DEX). That stat bonus item takes up the same slot as your STR/CON item, so unless you are kicking one of those stats entirely you are spending
Your WBL at 12th level is 108,000. If you just have a +6 DEX item, that's 1/3 of your WBL on that alone, dough that could've been spent on maxing your STR (damage) or CON (hp).
You could have a double +6 belt (90K) or a triple +4 belt (64K), but every gp spent on stats is less gp to spend on your weapon or armor or anything else.
If you rolled stats, you might have just gotten lucky, and good on ya!
If you are using the "new standard" of point buy, to get a 16 or 18 DEX requires a pretty huge investment in your stat points, to the point that you are going to have to gimp STR or CON by comparison, unless you're an elf (CON penalty = not likely) or halfling (STR penalty = not likely). Even if you human/half-human and put your +2 stat...
I'm going to ressurect a long dead thread. Sorry. But now that I have experience running a CaGM barbarian to lvl 18. All of the counters to this barbarian you've written about are wrong. I'll go over them one by one.
1. Fire Shield: CaGM is far, far better than Fire Shield. You don't have to actually hit the barbarian for him to hit you. At high level the barbarian hits do far more damage than fire shield could dream of getting save by perhaps an evocation specialized mage. The mage doesn't have 350 plus hit points and DR 11/- (Invulnerable Rager, the only barbarian worth playing).
2. Reach: Thanks for creating the Step Up feat line and eliminating reach as an option for creatures hitting the barbarian. Now your BBEG melee type can't get away from the barbarian.
3. Grappling: Ring of Freedom of Movement or cleric casting Freedom of Movement makes grappling obsolete.
4. Disarming: This still works. Probably the most effective tactic.
5. Big attacks like Vital Strike or the crit ability of the Two-hander Fighter or Sneak Attack: The rogue feat that eliminates AoOs. Well, Greater Fortification armor makes that tactic not work 75% of the time. Creature comes up and vital strikes once, then takes 4 or 5 hits from the barbarian and one AoO from the Vital Strike. Lvl 19 Two-hander crit attack countered by fortification armor.
6. MAD: A barbarian starting with a 12 dex gets the rage power Quick Reflexes. He gets his dex built up to 16 by asking the bard to cast Cat's Grace on him before every major battle until he obtained a Belt of Physical Perfection +4.
7. Low saves: Human barbarian with Superstition has saves that rival a paladin and monk.
8. Displacement or Similar spells: They can work. But when you have caster friends stripping such defenses, even they don't work too well if you only have one BBEG.
All in all after 18 levels, Come and Get Me is hands down the most powerful melee offensive ability in the game. If Vital Strike worked with Spring Attack, someone might have a chance if they spend all 6 feats it takes to Spring Attack and the full Vital Strike line compared to the 3 feats it takes for the barbarian to get Combat Reflexes and the Step Up feat line.
Come and Get Me makes it so no other melee class has a chance against the barbarian unless he can disarm him. My barbarian player purchased a cheap Locked Gauntlet to help against that, though that didn't work so well either against true disarm specialists. Which a DM can't continally throw at the barbarian.
All in all I have to say an Invulnerable Rager barbarian with Come and Get me, Supertition, and the Step Up feat line is the strongest melee combatant in the game bar none. He doesn't even need much AC because he does so much damage and can take so much damage that no monster relying on melee damage can begin to compete with him unless you build him far beyond the rules.
You should make one of these in-house and test it. Let me know if it was the intention to make this type of melee monster dominate all other physical damage dealers in the game.
I'll give you exactly what to test: Lesser Beast Totem, Beast Totem, Greater Beast Totem, Supersition, Reckless Abandon, Come and Get Me, Strength Surge, Quick Reflexes, Improved Damage Reduction x 2 (one due to feat), Witchhunter.
Feats: Power Attack, Raging Vitality, Step Up, Following Step, Toughness, Extra Rage Power (Improved Damage Reduction), Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Extra Rage Power (Witchhunter).
Human bonus: Superstition rage bonus.
Items: +3 Furious Wounding Transformative Greatsword, +1 Greater Fortification Armor, Belt of Physical Perfection +4, Ring of Evasion, Boots of Flying. Whatever else you feel like getting him. I think he has some protection rings and an amulet of natural armor or something. He doesn't care much about AC.
Then run him while backed up by a wizard, cleric, and bard. No one in my group runs rogues.
Now run this melee and compare him to others. Get back to me on how Come and Get Me isn't a far superior melee abilty to anything any other melee class gets. It is so good that any barbarian that doesn't take Come and Get Me and build completely around that rage power is subpar. There is no longer any choice for an player that wants to optimize their barbarian but Come and Get Me and Invulnerable Rager. They are the two clearly superior options in any campaign but one specifically designed to cater to the strengths of a different archetype. No other barbarian archetype can match what the above barbarian build can do.
I don't even consider the Core Rule Book barbarian the standard barbarian now. Now the standard barbarian is the invulnerable rager. I don't even think about what power I'm going to take at lvl 12. Lvl 12 I take Come and Get Me as a barbarian. It's a no brainer. It is so much better than any other option at lvl 12 that to even consider taking anything else would make you a complete fool.
I'll toss this with other no brainers like Prediction of Failure, Euphoric Tranquility, Enervate, Calcific Touch (the new dragon slaying and any big monster with a low dex slaying spell) and other spells with no save or real effective counter that make you go "Paizo, why didn't you think this out more?".
Though I also think that Come and Get Me and the Assault feats are really too strong (especially the later) I would like to add that with respect to Come and Get Me there are a few abilities (like rogue talents) that can deny targets the ability to perform attacks of opportunity.