If your group is use to playing D&D 3.5 or any version, thats why they added this step but like Kenderkin said they are wasting time casting darkness.. The spell has changed from what the D&D spell was.
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Hi, I'm new to Pathfinder and DMing in general and have a few questions.
Also they're saying that they can use their at will darkness then skip their movement phase to cast farie fire. Then they can still use their standard action to cast their regular spells.
Oh, and before I forget. Would them running up to a torch grabbing it and attempting to put the torch out be a swift action to do so? Besides the move action to get to the torch.
Thanks
Greg
Spell-like abilities are just like spells, take a standard action to use. The "at-will" part just means that they do not have to worry about how many they cast a day. If you look in the combat section in the Table: Actions in Combat you will see what I am saying.
As for the grabbing a torch. Treat the torch as a weapon. they would need to make a disarm the torch wielder. If it is a wall mount, then they would need to make a move action to get to it, then a standard action to remove it. This just puts the torch in their hand. At that point they need to figure out what they are doing to put it out (bucket of water?) Now if they are using magic to put out torches, like with the spell quench then it is a standard action at range.
1) Spell like abilities take the same amount of time as the spells they mimic, unless otherwise specified. So, casting Darkness, Deeper Darkness, Faerie Fire, etc, are all 1 standard action. Casting at-will means they can cast it any time they want, it just takes a standard action.
2) A creature with Faerie Fire on it, per the spell, sheds light 'as if they were a candle'. A candle increases the illumination level by 1 step out to 5 feet. So, within 5 feet of the target, the light is increased by 1 level (thus canceling out a level of darkness). If the drow noble has cast deeper darkness, then yes, there is some miss chance still for the FFd target, but if it's just darkness, then no, they cancel each other out.
3) Picking up a torch is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity, it can't be done as a swift action. Attempting to put it out would be another move action that also provokes an attack of opportunity.
4) They can't skip their movement phase to cast two spells in one round. Casting their at-will spell is, per 1 above, a standard action, and you can only take 1 standard action per round.
EDIT : Partially ninja'd by Happler. However, pick up an item is a move action (see combat section Happler). You can do it as a standard action also I believe. I was assuming putting out a torch from a wall sconce. If it's held by someone, they have to disarm first. Putting it out is a separate action, but should be easy (rubbing into sand, wrapping in heavy leather to smother, etc).
I had drow player like this who used Farie Fire to illuminate the enemies so those with out dark vision could see the enemies as well.
I've partially answered this in the other thread, but if the Drow are casting Deeper Darkness, even they cannot see - even with F/Fire.
Standard action to grab torch, standard to douse flames.
btw, both D/Darkness and F/Fire are standard actions as are all Spell Like Abilities, as has been noted.
I miss the old days when Faerie Fire was too weak to show at all in any kind of magical Darkness.
In 2nd ed, F/Fire worked in Darkness as well IIRC.
Have you got access to a 2nd ed PHB? I'm interested to know now.
Your questions have all been answered well, however I see another problem.
You are new too Pathfinder, you seem to be a GM of players who got to be Drow nobles. And I guess your players suggested the wrong answers you mentioned in your first post.
If this is the case, then you got the problem of the players exploiting your lack of knowledge.
I come to this conclusion, because I doubt that you, or anyone new to Pathfinder would pick, or even know about Drow nobles.
I agree with Richard. As you are a new DM (and also new to Pathfinder), you really should have kept your players to using the normal races and rules from the Core Rulebook. Even though I have been DM'ing 3.5 for many years, I still did that for the first Pathfinder campaign I DM'd, since there are many aspects of the basic rules that were changed compared to what I was used to.
Of course, as a new DM it's easy to listen to your players and give them what they want. That happened to me in the first 3.5 campaign I DM'd back in the day.. I foolishly allowed every single 3.0/3.5 supplement :/
In 2nd ed, F/Fire worked in Darkness as well IIRC.
Have you got access to a 2nd ed PHB? I'm interested to know now.
The 2nd Ed PHB says this in the description of Light about the reverse of it, Darkness:
"Any normal light source or magical light source of lesser intensity than full daylight does not function in magical darkness."
And the Faerie Fire description says the light does not come anywhere close to sunlight.
Thus, Faerie Fire does not work in magical Darkness in 2nd Ed.
The Faerie Fire description in the PRPG Core Book also says that a 2nd level or higher magical Darkness effect will make it not visible.
In 2nd ed, F/Fire worked in Darkness as well IIRC.
Have you got access to a 2nd ed PHB? I'm interested to know now.
The 2nd Ed PHB says this in the description of Light about the reverse of it, Darkness:
"Any normal light source or magical light source of lesser intensity than full daylight does not function in magical darkness."
And the Faerie Fire description says the light does not come anywhere close to sunlight.
Thus, Faerie Fire does not work in magical Darkness in 2nd Ed.
The Faerie Fire description in the PRPG Core Book also says that a 2nd level or higher magical Darkness effect will make it not visible.
huh, there you go. Thanks for that, i guess i'll chalk that one up to 'The Drizzt Effect'.
In 2nd ed, F/Fire worked in Darkness as well IIRC.
Have you got access to a 2nd ed PHB? I'm interested to know now.
The 2nd Ed PHB says this in the description of Light about the reverse of it, Darkness:
"Any normal light source or magical light source of lesser intensity than full daylight does not function in magical darkness."
And the Faerie Fire description says the light does not come anywhere close to sunlight.
Thus, Faerie Fire does not work in magical Darkness in 2nd Ed.
The Faerie Fire description in the PRPG Core Book also says that a 2nd level or higher magical Darkness effect will make it not visible.
Faerie Fire counters the darkness spell with a caster level of 1.
Faerie Fire counters the darkness spell with a caster level of 1.
Nope I think it's the spell level that is taken into account, not the caster level (either in 3.5 or in PF, though I don't really understand this in PF with the new version of the spell how come that light cannot counter darkness ?)
Darkness is a level 2 spell, faerie fire a level 1 spell, so in 3.5 faerie fire cannot affect Darkness (light is although a level 1 spell, so in 3.5 Darkness take over light)
Faerie Fire counters the darkness spell with a caster level of 1.Nope I think it's the spell level that is taken into account, not the caster level (either in 3.5 or in PF, though I don't really understand this in PF with the new version of the spell how come that light cannot counter darkness ?)
Darkness is a level 2 spell, faerie fire a level 1 spell, so in 3.5 faerie fire cannot affect Darkness (light is although a level 1 spell, so in 3.5 Darkness take over light)
He was quoting the 2nd edition rules since someone asked for it upthread, not 3.X.
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I agree with Richard. As you are a new DM (and also new to Pathfinder), you really should have kept your players to using the normal races and rules from the Core Rulebook. Even though I have been DM'ing 3.5 for many years, I still did that for the first Pathfinder campaign I DM'd, since there are many aspects of the basic rules that were changed compared to what I was used to.
Of course, as a new DM it's easy to listen to your players and give them what they want. That happened to me in the first 3.5 campaign I DM'd back in the day.. I foolishly allowed every single 3.0/3.5 supplement :/
He's being polite.
Your players tricked you during character creation so that they could have unusually powerful characters.
Clearly they know their way around the rules, otherwise they wouldn't have known about Drow Nobles, so now they are tricking you again.
Right now they are doing this:
Round 1:
Deeper Darkness
Faerie Fire
Cast Spell
What should happen
Round 1:
Move, Deeper Darkness
Round 2:
Move, Faerie Fire
Round 3:
Move, cast spell
Also, and this is very important, even if they were not tricking you about the amount of time each spell takes to cast, they are tricking you about the effects of Faerie Fire. This is a quote from the Faerie Fire spell description: "a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally". So you would not be able to see the Faerie Fire inside the Deeper Darkness. Drow have no abilities that let them see inside a Deeper Darkness spell and that includes Darkvision and Faerie Fire.
My apologies if they have somehow cobbled all of this together by accident and misreading but it seems highly unlikely.
My suggestion would be to end whatever adventure they are on very quickly: "Ooh, look, the bad guy - big, awesome fight. Hurrah, adventure over!"
Then begin a new adventure and restrict the players to the rules in the Core Rulebook.
Then re-read, carefully, the rules for combat and spells.
I am confused guys... are you guys telling him Faerie Fire works when cast in the area of a Darkness spell?....Because It doesn't in Pathfinder.
I am confused because people keep talking 2nd edition and 3.5 rules.. and this is a Pathfinder Forum....
The 2nd edition question was for curiosity most likely. As for the rules faerie fire is pointless because the drow can see in magical darkness anyway.
From a rules perspective it does not show up in darkness since darkness is a higher level spell.
Faerie Fire does NOT function in an area with the darkness spell cast.
A pale glow surrounds and outlines the subjects. Outlined subjects shed light as candles. Creatures outlined by faerie fire take a –20 penalty on all Stealth checks. Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects. The light is too dim to have any special effect on undead or dark-dwelling creatures vulnerable to light. The faerie fire can be blue, green, or violet, according to your choice at the time of casting. The faerie fire does not cause any harm to the objects or creatures thus outlined.
The darkness spell shuts down faerie fire.
The Darkness spell only reduces the light level by 1, and turns off nonmagical light sources.
This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness. This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark. Creatures with light vulnerability or sensitivity take no penalties in normal light. All creatures gain concealment (20% miss chance) in dim light. All creatures gain total concealment (50% miss chance) in darkness. Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
ALL creatures with darkvision would ignore the darkness spell.
Current natural light conditions are reduced 1 step.
If cast in day light the darkness spell gives you normal light (aka does NOTHING).
If cast on a group exploring a cave using torches the nonmagical light does not work in the radius of the darkness spell and you get complete darkness.
If cast at dusk with normal light, the area of effect would be in dim light condition (20% miss chance).
If the creatures that are hit by darkness happen to have a continual flame torch created by a cleric (3rd level spell) the darkness has NO effect.
A 110gp everburning torch(listed in the equipment area so it is a mundane item aka common) stops the darkness trick in its tracks.
Since darkness is now gimped for the drow they decided to use deeper darkness
This spell functions as darkness, except that objects radiate darkness in a 60-foot radius and the light level is lowered by two steps. Bright light becomes dim light and normal light becomes darkness. Areas of dim light and darkness become supernaturally dark. This functions like darkness, but even creatures with darkvision cannot see within the spell's confines.
Using deeper darkness blinds the drow as well.
When in doubt just read each spell and effect carefully.
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On another note, the drow noble PCs are a lot higher level then you probably think they are.
Let's say they are 5th level mages. They would be equal to 8th level PCs. When using monster races you HAVE to adjust the monster goodies with a level adjustment. Pathfinder took this out and broke the balance of playing monsters as players.
Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind, and as such can be very unbalancing if not handled carefully.
...but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level...
Even strickly by the book Drow Nobles should be counted as 1 level higher. Heck even Drow should be counted 1 level higher.
DM call I would put Drow Nobles at 2 to 3 levels higher due to all their at will abilities, spell resistances, overall four +2 stat boosts.
Bring their level in line with what they really are and things won't be as easy for them anymore.
Also always keep the following in mind.
As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play.
Drow were toned down, and then the Drow Noble's put in to replace the old Drow from 3.5.
Drow are not overpowered compared to other races. Not past the first level at least, honestly, have had several in PF games.
Even the Drow Nobles aren't overpowered once you get past level 8 or so (that is, a Drow Noble with 8 class levels is about the same as an Elf with 8 class levels). The DN has a few goodies the elf doesn't, but at that level, it's nothing the elf couldn't have with a few inexpensive magic items.
Drow were toned down, and then the Drow Noble's put in to replace the old Drow from 3.5.
Drow are not overpowered compared to other races. Not past the first level at least, honestly, have had several in PF games.
Even the Drow Nobles aren't overpowered once you get past level 8 or so (that is, a Drow Noble with 8 class levels is about the same as an Elf with 8 class levels). The DN has a few goodies the elf doesn't, but at that level, it's nothing the elf couldn't have with a few inexpensive magic items.
Looking at the 8th level example
SR 19 is not an inexpensive magic item. An item that gives SR 19 would cost 70k, which is more then the total equipment value of an 8th level character. Heck it is a non-slotted SR 19 magic item which would cost 140k!!!
SR 11 + class level is BIG. Spell casters of equal level have an automatic 50% fail rate for spells they use. When you run into monsters will spell like abilities they caster level us lower then a full caster and then even less likely to effect the drow.
Using APG dwarves can get SR 5+character level which is not nearly as good that yields about a %20 fail rate.
Monks don't get that goodness until 13th level and theirs is 1 less 10 + class level. That is only for a monk, a drow noble has it for ANY class.
Drow were toned down, and then the Drow Noble's put in to replace the old Drow from 3.5.
Drow are not overpowered compared to other races. Not past the first level at least, honestly, have had several in PF games.
Even the Drow Nobles aren't overpowered once you get past level 8 or so (that is, a Drow Noble with 8 class levels is about the same as an Elf with 8 class levels). The DN has a few goodies the elf doesn't, but at that level, it's nothing the elf couldn't have with a few inexpensive magic items.
Looking at the 8th level example
SR 19 is not an inexpensive magic item. An item that gives SR 19 would cost 70k, which is more then the total equipment value of an 8th level character. Heck it is a non-slotted SR 19 magic item which would cost 140k!!!
SR 11 + class level is BIG. Spell casters of equal level have an automatic 50% fail rate for spells they use. When you run into monsters will spell like abilities they caster level us lower then a full caster and then even less likely to effect the drow.
Using APG dwarves can get SR 5+character level which is not nearly as good that yields about a %20 fail rate.
Monks don't get that goodness until 13th level and theirs is 1 less 10 + class level. That is only for a monk, a drow noble has it for ANY class.
The Drow and the Dwarf could have about the same SR (5 + CL vs 6 + CL).
The Drow Noble does have better SR, but to be honest, it's not really as effective as you'd think looking at it on paper. It's about like lycanthropic regen. Yeah, it looks really powerful on paper, but since everyone uses silver weapons against werewolves, it's kind of useless. The issue being that everyone knows about it. At 8th level, any enemy spellcaster is going to hit the drow with a spell that doesn't allow SR, which moots the SR. Kind of like having laser reflective armor in a game where there's no lasers. Granted, it does affect the tactics of the enemies, but that's all.
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The Drow Noble does have better SR, but to be honest, it's not really as effective as you'd think looking at it on paper. It's about like lycanthropic regen. Yeah, it looks really powerful on paper, but since everyone uses silver weapons against werewolves, it's kind of useless. The issue being that everyone knows about it. At 8th level, any enemy spellcaster is going to hit the drow with a spell that doesn't allow SR, which moots the SR. Kind of like having laser reflective armor in a game where there's no lasers. Granted, it does affect the tactics of the enemies, but that's all.
But when the players know the game better than the GM, and are looking to take advantage of any loopholes...
This will make things much harder for the GM.
The Drow Noble does have better SR, but to be honest, it's not really as effective as you'd think looking at it on paper. It's about like lycanthropic regen. Yeah, it looks really powerful on paper, but since everyone uses silver weapons against werewolves, it's kind of useless. The issue being that everyone knows about it. At 8th level, any enemy spellcaster is going to hit the drow with a spell that doesn't allow SR, which moots the SR. Kind of like having laser reflective armor in a game where there's no lasers. Granted, it does affect the tactics of the enemies, but that's all.But when the players know the game better than the GM, and are looking to take advantage of any loopholes...
This will make things much harder for the GM.
Not really.
I have a friend who GMs, and we've had these types of discussions a lot. Honestly, a good GM really should never have trouble challenging his players. He has unlimited resources, unlimited ability to set things up the way he needs to, and intimate knowledge of his player's characters.
My friend, who's a bit crude, puts it like this. "I can let them do anything they want with a character, and they'll be so busy cackling over what they got over on me that they won't notice the 50 gallon drum of industrial lubricant I'm rolling in for the nights reaming." :)
Any group of players who were taking on drow would go through their spells and pick out which ones were best to attack drow, no SR, etc. I see no reason why the bad guys wouldn't do the same once they know a drow is in the party.
Yes tactics can help overcome SR.
Though if it was not there magic missle, fire ball, scorching ray (standard damage spells) would be 100% effective, now made into 50% effective.
The list of offensive spells is long for ones that can be effected by SR
The list of spells that do not allow SR are small: grease, acid arrow, stinking cloud, flame arrow, black tentacles, cloud kill...
Let's say SR helps against 80%+ of offensive spells. (Actually more like 90%) that means if 80% of spells normally memorized and useable by spell casters and creatures with spell like abilities will on average be stopped by the SR 50% of the time so 40% of all the spells a spell caster uses against a creature with SR are nullified.
Spell casters are then 40% less effective against a creature with good SR than those without SR.
That is a BIG advantage and deserves some level adjustment.
Yes tactics can help overcome SR.
Though if it was not there magic missle, fire ball, scorching ray (standard damage spells) would be 100% effective, now made into 50% effective.
The list of offensive spells is long for ones that can be effected by SRThe list of spells that do not allow SR are small: grease, acid arrow, stinking cloud, flame arrow, black tentacles, cloud kill...
Let's say SR helps against 80%+ of offensive spells. (Actually more like 90%) that means if 80% of spells normally memorized and useable by spell casters and creatures with spell like abilities will on average be stopped by the SR 50% of the time so 40% of all the spells a spell caster uses against a creature with SR are nullified.
Spell casters are then 40% less effective against a creature with good SR than those without SR.That is a BIG advantage and deserves some level adjustment.
For the normal drow, no it doesn't (unless you also think the dwarf version should make them +1).
For the drow noble, there already is one there (the CR 1) which reduces the character level by 1 maximum (an 8th level drow noble only has 7 class levels, which reduces the SR by 1 as well, remember).
If you compare regular drow and elf side by side drow are far superior.
They have a lot in common with the following differences
Drow downsides:
do not have elven magic
weapon familiarty for the drow is not as good as for the elves
light blindness
Drow upsides:
better vision: 120' darkvision(twice as good as any other races darkvision)
SR 6+character level (5% better then a dwarves when he replaces dwarven resistances)
spell like ablities: a zero, first, and second level spell
poison use
the upsides far outweigh the downsides.
Besides for role playing reasons why play an elf when a drow is better? role playing is the only thing that would balance them out, since drow are hated on site and have a tough time existing in the aboveground cities.
In my opinion the upsides of drow still outweigh the downsides, therefore should require a LA of +1
Drow Nobles are even better which would give an LA of +2.
The dwarves give up a lot to get their SR 5+level. "Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities". While the drow have it and their immunity to sleep and charm and +2 to enchantment spells and spell like abilities.
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But when the players know the game better than the GM, and are looking to take advantage of any loopholes...
This will make things much harder for the GM.
Not really.
I have a friend who GMs, and we've had these types of discussions a lot. Honestly, a good GM really should never have trouble challenging his players. He has unlimited resources, unlimited ability to set things up the way he needs to, and intimate knowledge of his player's characters.
You assume too much.
I am not a good GM, I am an average GM. I don't think I'm alone in this.
The OP is a novice GM and new to Pathfinder.
He is also talking exclusively about Drow Nobles, the ones with loads of funky powers, inlcuding SR.
He is also, we must presume, running a normal game and has just encountered this - normal games start at level one and these racial abilities are there from the get-go.
I have no problem with Drow Nobles, I am an average, fairly experienced GM and know not to allow players to take them.
The OP is new to all this, his players are taking advantage. He needs to nip it in the bud.
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On the subject of the players taking advantage of the GM by giving bad advice on the rules, I am reminded of the adage, "Attribute not to malfesance that which is attributable to incompetence." Meaning, the players might just have the rules wrong. :)
This said, I agree with the statements made that new GMs are better off dealing with low level core characters. There is a massive learning curve...take it slow.
As for SR: it's a mixed bag for player characters. Drow PCs not only have SR vs. opponents, but they also suffer from SR from party/individual buffs, healing, etc. Nothing quite like trying to stabilize a Drow PC who is unconscious with bleed effects and having spell fail = death.
Drow were toned down, and then the Drow Noble's put in to replace the old Drow from 3.5.
Drow are not overpowered compared to other races. Not past the first level at least, honestly, have had several in PF games.
Even the Drow Nobles aren't overpowered once you get past level 8 or so (that is, a Drow Noble with 8 class levels is about the same as an Elf with 8 class levels). The DN has a few goodies the elf doesn't, but at that level, it's nothing the elf couldn't have with a few inexpensive magic items.
Looking at the 8th level example
SR 19 is not an inexpensive magic item. An item that gives SR 19 would cost 70k, which is more then the total equipment value of an 8th level character. Heck it is a non-slotted SR 19 magic item which would cost 140k!!!
SR 11 + class level is BIG. Spell casters of equal level have an automatic 50% fail rate for spells they use. When you run into monsters will spell like abilities they caster level us lower then a full caster and then even less likely to effect the drow.
Using APG dwarves can get SR 5+character level which is not nearly as good that yields about a %20 fail rate.
Monks don't get that goodness until 13th level and theirs is 1 less 10 + class level. That is only for a monk, a drow noble has it for ANY class.
SR is a trap for PC's. If you have it the party healer(insert other buffer as needed) has to beat your SR, unless you lower it as a standard action. Now if you could drop it as an immediate action I would think it was nice to have. By the time you can afford an item that gives SR it is to expensive for what it does.