So, this should be a really easy question: how does my player (if he wants to play a centaur ranger) create his ability scores for his pc?
Lets say the group is level 6 (all standard classes), per Beastiary he would get 3 levels of ranger (which is sick, because he now has not only more hd than the other party members - he gets to create his pc with point buy and gets the insane ability bonus from centaur str +4, dex +4, con +4, wis +4 and cha +2 too). This makes this sort of race a much better choice than the standard classes!
If the ability scores would remain standard for centaur on the other side it´s kind of lame... every centaur would be the same and they would be too underpowered.
Note: This is only an example. My players are always interessted in playing extraordinary races (most I allow one or two, because I don´t want to run a freak show).
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The simplest way is to include the bonuses as part of the point buy. For example, the race receives a +4 Str bonus, but that comes out of his point buy so if he spends X number of points to boost his Str, it actually costs points as though it were Str +4.
The centaur is a very strong race for a PC to play. Heck, I've got problems in a high point buy campaign with just a hobgoblin (+4 Str is the killer with a PC optimized for grappling).
You may also have issues with one PC riding the centaur as a mount. Be sure to consider how you're going to run initiative, full attacks for each of them, and how readied actions and/or delays will work. It's not difficult, but things can get a little weird so it's good to look at them in advance. Oh, and don't forget about the Cover and Spur Mount features of the Ride skill: decide in advance how/if those will work.
Personally, I wouldn't allow it as it's a bit too "out there" for my taste. YMMV.
The Character would be a level 3 Ranger TOTAL (no HD for Race): 3 behind the other characters as the Centaur is a CR3, so high stats but lower hits / saves and equipment values.
Lets say the group is level 6 (all standard classes), per Beastiary he would get 3 levels of ranger (which is sick, because he now has not only more hd than the other party members - he gets to create his pc with point buy and gets the insane ability bonus from centaur str +4, dex +4, con +4, wis +4 and cha +2 too). This makes this sort of race a much better choice than the standard classes!
I'm not sure where you are getting that he would get three levels or Ranger. Are you assuming CR 3 means it is the equivilent of a level three character? CR 3 just means it is a sufficient threat to level three characters. A lot of creatures have special abilities that make them more powerful in the a campaign versus a single encounter against one.
Back in the 3.5 era, this was handled by the much misunderstood and much maligned "level adjustment." For a centaur character the level adjustment was +2 which meant that a starting centaur character (no class levels) was effective class level of 6 (4 HD +2 level adjustment).
Pathfinder did away with level adjustment but basically said "Don't do it. They too potent." They recommend using the creatures racial HD as a guideline. In the case with the centaur, the large size and subsequent bonuses to physical abilities need some adjustment.
The Character would be a level 3 Ranger TOTAL (no HD for Race): 3 behind the other characters as the Centaur is a CR3, so high stats but lower hits / saves and equipment values.
Where do I find the rule to this?
The Character would be a level 3 Ranger TOTAL (no HD for Race): 3 behind the other characters as the Centaur is a CR3, so high stats but lower hits / saves and equipment values.
True, but in this case (and many other I'm sure), the +4 STR, +4 DEX +4 CON and +4 WIS gives the centaur a net +2 to hit and to all saves, which is "better" than 3 levels worth of (good) BAB and (good) base saves.
However, -3 levels put the character seriously behind in terms of class features, iterative attacks and spellcasting.
I'd encourage the DM to custom-make the class to a certain extent and drop the character level penalty accordingly. Humanoids that become adventurers are usually cut "above the average", but it may be the other way around for "monsters"; the weak get cast away but still make good adventurers compared to most humanoids.
There are a few homebrew centaurs out there, my favorites are the ones including the "anthropomorphic" concept stating that while centaurs are large creatures, they are considered medium for the purpose of determining weapon size and (upper) body armor etc.
There's always the possibility of adjusting the racial bonuses BEFORE the purchase of stat points, which will reduce their maximum a bit. But in the end, you need to find a way to remain fair to other players and prevent "ordinary races" from loosing all of their attractiveness.
'findel
[url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monsters-as-pcs][/url]
I'm not sure where you are getting that he would get three levels or Ranger. Are you assuming CR 3 means it is the equivilent of a level three character? CR 3 just means it is a sufficient threat to level three characters.
Read. Especially this:
If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.
Why not just role 3d6, and just give them the shape and movement or the creature they want.
All else based on character class.
So, this should be a really easy question: how does my player (if he wants to play a centaur ranger) create his ability scores for his pc?
Lets say the group is level 6 (all standard classes), per Beastiary he would get 3 levels of ranger (which is sick, because he now has not only more hd than the other party members - he gets to create his pc with point buy and gets the insane ability bonus from centaur str +4, dex +4, con +4, wis +4 and cha +2 too). This makes this sort of race a much better choice than the standard classes!
If the ability scores would remain standard for centaur on the other side it´s kind of lame... every centaur would be the same and they would be too underpowered.
Note: This is only an example. My players are always interessted in playing extraordinary races (most I allow one or two, because I don´t want to run a freak show).
Tell him yes you can play a centaur. A crippled centaur.
Why not just role 3d6, and just give them the shape and movement or the creature they want.
All else based on character class.
I´m sure you play all races (elves, gnomes, orcs...) this way?
[url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monsters-as-pcs][/url]I'm not sure where you are getting that he would get three levels or Ranger. Are you assuming CR 3 means it is the equivilent of a level three character? CR 3 just means it is a sufficient threat to level three characters.Read. Especially this:
If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.
Hmmm. That contradicts the core rules (p. 406), that says to use "HD (not its CR)."
Why not just role 3d6, and just give them the shape and movement or the creature they want.
All else based on character class.
I´m sure you play all races (elves, gnomes, orcs...) this way?
in the past no.... well long long ago OD&D ya
Why i am thinking if i make a new version, of dropping the ability score states for races (( although size might effect Str, Con, Dex )).
After all, give elf 60 feet Darkvision and Immunity to sleep and find secret door 1-2 on d6 use to be what racel ability that elves use to have.
so :
3d6
Get ride of neg bonuse
0=0
1-5 = +1
6-10 = +2
11-15 = +3
16-20 = +4
21-100 = +5
+5 would be max bonuse for all ability scores.
Why not just role 3d6, and just give them the shape and movement or the creature they want.
All else based on character class.
I´m sure you play all races (elves, gnomes, orcs...) this way?
in the past no.... well long long ago OD&D ya
Why i am thinking if i make a new version, of dropping the ability score states for races (( although size might effect Str, Con, Dex )).
After all, give elf 60 feet Darkvision and Immunity to sleep and find secret door 1-2 on d6 use to be what racel ability that elves use to have.so :
3d6
Get ride of neg bonuse
0=0
1-5 = +1
6-10 = +2
11-15 = +3
16-20 = +4
21-100 = +5+5 would be max bonuse for all ability scores.
Thanks. But I like more to play Pathfinder.
Lets say the group is level 6 (all standard classes), per Beastiary he would get 3 levels of ranger (which is sick, because he now has not only more hd than the other party members - he gets to create his pc with point buy and gets the insane ability bonus from centaur str +4, dex +4, con +4, wis +4 and cha +2 too). This makes this sort of race a much better choice than the standard classes!
One question: where do you get those +s to stats from? The Pathfinder bestiary doesn't suggest anything of the sort, in fact, if you recreate the stats with the standard 15 point buy for the centaur the most sensible solution is:
Str 13
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 11 + 1 (from level 4)
This results in racial stat of
Str +2
Dex +2
Con +2
Additionally, I agree with "Some call me Tim" that the HD is relevant for determining number of class levels; so your player will have a total of 6HD like every other party member (4 racially from centaur and 2 from ranger levels). Additionally he gets to do whatever method you use for stat-generation (20 point buy?) and then apply the racial stat bonuses of Str+2, Dex+2, Con+2.
Not bad, but not crazy broken either.
Sure, there are other balance solutions depending on how you spread the points, maybe you prefer to give him: Str+2, Con+2, Wis+2; which is probably a more fair spread.
If your group is really interested in playing monsters as PCs then the 3e D&D book "Savage Species" might come in handy. It has classes for many monsters, including centaurs, which let a PC start out at 1st level as a wimpy version of the monster and slowly gain the creature's abilities over time. The centaur class, for instance, is 6 levels long, and at the end the PC is a regular centaur with 4HD. It seems reasonably well balanced to me. We have somebody playing a displacer beast in one of our games, and if anything she's a little weaker than the other PCs (though still playable and apparently fun)
I'm not quite sure how the Pathfinder method is supposed to work. Do alternate races get ability bonuses? It would seem odd if they don't since even normal races do, but maybe they're left out for balance reasons. I'd think it could be a little unsatisfying to play an ogre or minotaur who isn't any stronger than the average elf. I guess you could say that the monster PC left its original society because it was such a runt. That's kind of limiting from an RP perspective, but maybe Paizo decided it was better than dealing with level adjust.
I run mixed monster/core race groups all the time. I've read over the Monsters as PCs section several times. Here is what I have come to understand and use from that section.
Monsters are not built with any sort of point buy. Monsters have point buy 0 (well, 3 if you want to split hairs). Certainly not 15. Monster scores start at 10 (or 11). You can easily extrapolate ability modifiers from there. Before anyone tries to contradict this, this is how it was done in 3.0 and 3.5, and if it has changed it is a MASSIVE breach of the backwards compatibility design focus.
Moving on, now that we have the monster's ability score modifiers, we now assign them, just as if we were assigning a core race's ability modifiers. Yes, the centaur gets a 15 point buy just like the dwarf, and then gets his ability score modifiers, just like the dwarf. Yes, this means the centaur has better base ability scores. Its a strong willed, in harmony with nature, horse human hybrid, of large size. It should have better ability scores than a human of similar stat allocation. But wait, theres more!
Next we use the creature's CR as a guideline for how many "levels" it has to miss out on. The centaur is CR3, so it misses out on 3 levels. In your level 6 party, this means it gets 3 class levels. Which means, compared to a 6th level ranger, its missing out on 3 class levels worth of abilities. Spells, animal companion, favored terrain, extra favored enemy. There is a price paid for those ability scores.
On "basic paper" is the centaur stronger than a regular ranger? Yes, of course. On "actual play paper" is it stronger? Not really. Actual play involves having to squeeze through medium spaces, paying extra for armor and weapons, paying extra for food and lodging (a large creature usually eats 8 times as much as a medium, that can turn into a big expense fast!), and even just sometimes being forbidden from entering certain places. If centaurs are common in an area, allowances are probably made for them. But in places where they are rare or not present, its totally reasonable for the innkeeper to say "he can stay in the stables", or the bathhouse worker to say "sorry, he can't come in", etc etc.
For extra fun you can use the 3rd Edition Savage Species rules (not the explicit ones, but the concept) to make "monster progressions" and have the monster level through its racial HD with the party. It actually works quite well. I'm running Savage Tide under Pathfinder rules, Core and APG with 3.5 material allowed on a case by case, DM approval basis. The party is a human summoner, an elven ranger, a sahuagain alchemist, and an immature storm giant. The storm giant, despite having 12 hd in a level 8 party (savage species progression), is statistically right in line with being a fighter. Damage output, to hit bonus, AC, saves, all right where they should be. The few "loose ends" like a higher base fortitude, spell like abilities, etc, are balanced by frequently squeezing in dungeons, having to eat a lot, and having to pay attention to weight on certain surfaces. Its worked out well, has been balanced so far, and hasn't stolen spotlight from other characters.
The main thing is to have the game world respond appropriately to the presence of the monster PC. Doorways are not going to become magically large. Centaur armor isnt going to be suddenly on armorsmith inventory lists. And if it still seems like its overpowered, as the Monsters as PCs entry says, pay attention to it and modify it as needed if it gets imbalanced.
Monsters are created using the basic array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10). So, subtract 11 from all odd ability scores and 10 from all even ability scores to determine ability score adjustments for the monster/race in question.
For the Centaur, that ends up at:
STR +4, DEX +4, CON +4, WIS +4, CHA +2
These adjustments are just like the Human's +2 to any score; they are added after point-buy/rolling is completed.
As for how to balance a Centaur PC with non-monstrous PCs, that hasn't been fully fleshed out in Pathfinder yet.
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Oh please Lorekeeper. I don´t want to explain the very basics of npc creation (commoner of races 11,10,11,10,11,10, standard npc pb 15 for 15,14,13,12,10,8). Normal creatures are build with the first set. NPC become the second set. Then the racial mod.
Is that so hard to figure out?
@Are and Black Bard: Thanks. Finally some people with rule knowledge in the RULES forum!!!
Which means, compared to a 6th level ranger, its missing out on 3 class levels worth of abilities. Spells, animal companion, favored terrain, extra favored enemy. There is a price paid for those ability scores.
Very true. This is even more obvious if the PC had chosen a class with full spellcasting instead. Being 3 levels behind as a Cleric or Wizard would more than make up for the increased ability scores and other abilities.
Oh please Lorekeeper. I don´t want to explain the very basics of npc creation (commoner of races 11,10,11,10,11,10, standard npc pb 15 for 15,14,13,12,10,8). Normal creatures are build with the first set. NPC become the second set. Then the racial mod.
Is that so hard to figure out?
My bad, sorry. :(
I thought your original question was on how to balance the player character. The method I suggest would resolve that pretty well, I think. By all means, go ahead and give him the appropriate +s. But I'm not sure what the thread is about when you already know what he's supposed to get.
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Ok,
I'll be duplicating some stuff others have posted, but I've actually had experience with this (including running someone with a centaur character).
1) Stat bonuses :
As stated above, subtract 10 or 11 to get the stat bonuses.
STR : +4
DEX : +4
CON : +4
INT : +0
WIS : +4
CHA : +2
Roll or buy stats as normal, however you prefer.
2) Hit Points :
Roll his racial hit dice 4d10 + Con Mod * 4 (He still get's those). Unlike a PC, you shouldn't take average per die, he's a PC, he should roll. He get's max HP for first class level, and rolls normally per class afterwards.
3) Subtract his CR from the party level (6 - 3) = 3. For every 3 class levels, reduce his CR by 1 for purposes of adjusting his class levels. This is his base starting class levels. He get's max HP for his first class level, then rolls normally. What that means is, when the rest of the group is at 6, he'll be at CL 4 (with a 2 CR). Now, the rules are fuzzy on odd CRs, you do this every 3 class levels up to 1/2 his CR. Whether you round up or down is up to you. I generally round down (so I'd adjust the CR to 1 at CL 6 and make it CL 7 and CR 1).
So, you'd have the following at the different party levels for a Centaur. This assumes you round down on the 1/2 CR reduction. If you round up, he'll be 2 levels behind from PL 6 onward and CR 2/CL 18 at level 20.
PL 3 : CR 3
PL 4 : CR 3/CL 1
PL 5 : CR 3/CL 2
PL 6 : CR 2/CL 4
PL 7 : CR 2/CL 5
PL 8 : CR 2/CL 6
PL 9 : CR 1/CL 8
PL 10 : CR 1/CL 9
...
PL 20 : CR 1/CL 19
Beyond that, use all the core rules as needed. Don't forget that as a quadruped, the centaur has enhanced hauling capacity. He'll also need to pay extra for armor (barding & normal mixed, large size), be a large creature but use medium weapons (and medium damage from those weapons). He'll have issues with caves, etc.
Which means, compared to a 6th level ranger, its missing out on 3 class levels worth of abilities. Spells, animal companion, favored terrain, extra favored enemy. There is a price paid for those ability scores.
Very true. This is even more obvious if the PC had chosen a class with full spellcasting instead. Being 3 levels behind as a Cleric or Wizard would more than make up for the increased ability scores and other abilities.
See above, it's actually only 1 (or 2, depending on how you rule the CR reductions). Which is not at all that bad.
My friends and I have used Savage Species even to this day. The difficulty many people face with the book and even the concept of racial hit dice is because it mixes terms. I'm going to make it simple on you.
The Acid Test: A simple and logical comparison between two things. In this case a monster with racial hid dice and a PC class with equal or more levels.
In the CR rules a 4th level character using any of the base races (human, elf, dwarf, so forth) is CR 3. If a centaur is a CR 3 then it must be equal to a 4th level character right? Maybe. Let's compare.
(For this comparison we will not be applying adjustments based on ability scores generated through point-buy. The starting ability adjustments of the monster will be included since these will be considered a "monster feature".)
TO Hit
4th level Barbarian: Base attack +4, ability to rage 10+Con mod rounds per day for +2 to hit.
Centaur: Base attack +4, base Str 15 for +2 to hit, -1 from size.
We call this a net zero. The barbarian will have an edge here for most combats in a day. Then the edge goes to the centaur.
Damage: Undersized weapons puts a centaur on par with everyone else, but during a full round of attacks the centaur gets two additional hooves attacks at -5 to hit (-2 with just one feat) at 1d6+1/2 Str. Obviously a higher strength will net a much higher bonus. This can be construed as the straw that broke the camel blah blah blah.
AC: The centaur gains a +1 natural armor which is quickly negated by their size penalty. So that's a wash, but the +2 to AC from Dex 14 is notable because the only class to gain an AC bonus is the monk. It also translates into a +2 to reflex saves and ranged attacks.
Now for HP: d10 hit dice and an automatic +2 bonus hp per hit dice because of base Con 14. This not only gives the centaur an edge starting out, but also gives an edge as they advance.
Saving Throws: Fort +3 (+1 base, +2 from Con), Ref +6 (+4 base, +2 from Dex), Will +6 (+4 base, +2 from Wis). These numbers numbers are superior to any other 4th level class, but only just barely. Once a class is added these numbers get an even bigger boost. Slight edge over 4th level classes.
Abilities: Looking at the previous numbers we see the centaur has a distinctive edge over 4th level classes. Here's were things change dramatically. Casters have 2nd level spells, at least one bonus feat and a number of other spell-like abilities. Everyone else has two bonus feats (or two rogue talents), sneak attack, flurry of blows, etc. The centaur has, , , nothing. So, what is a feat worth? How about sneak attack, smite evil, access to spells, etc. Is it worth all the ability bonus'? How about those two hooves during a full attack? Numerically a centaur is strong, but lacks diversity of abilities and as we've seen with multiclass characters being 4 levels behind is kind of a big deal.
Assessment: If you want to play it safe, have a full centaur be equivalent to a 5th level character. Thus a centaur with one level in any class would be a 6th level character. If you want my opinion, treat those racial hit dice as class levels that must be taken and move on.
I hope this helps.
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If the monster PC guidelines in the Bestiary are strictly adhered to, a centaur PC's progression looks like the table below. The left column shows the centaur's racial HD (before the slash) and the centaur's class levels (after the slash) as it compares to his more normal party members' class levels. For example, if your party is 16th-level, then your friend should be a 14th-level centaur (that is 4 HD & 14 class levels). The bolded line is where the centaur gains a "bonus class level" to make up for his inferior racial HD.
4/00; 3
4/01; 4
4/02; 5
4/04; 6
4/05; 7
4/06; 8
4/07; 9
4/08; 10
4/09; 11
4/10; 12
4/11; 13
4/12; 14
4/13; 15
4/14; 16
4/15; 17
4/16; 18
4/17; 19
4/18; 20
The centaur racial traits would look something like this:
Ability Modifiers: +4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, +2 Cha (as well as +1 to any one ability score for your 4th racial HD)
Size: Large (10 x 10 ft.)
Type: Monstrous Humanoid (4 HD)
Speed: 50 ft.
Reach: 5 ft.
Armor Class: +1 natural armor bonus
Natural Attacks: 2 hooves (secondary attacks, base 1d6 damage)
Skills: No racial bonuses, but you get a +8 bonus to Acrobatics checks made to jump due to high speed.
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., Undersized weapons
Starting Languages: Common, Elven, Sylvan (with no bonus languages for high intelligence)
Your friend may only play such a character in a 3rd-level or higher group and he gains the starting funds of a character for his effective level (for example, if he started in a 16th-level group, he would start with 315,000gp worth of adventuring gear).
HP: 10 + 3d10 + (con x 4)
Base saves: +1 Fort, +4 Ref, +4 Will
Base Attack: +4
Bonus Armor/Weapon Proficiencies: All light and medium armors, shields (except the tower shield), and all simple weapons plus the longsword
Feats: 2 general feats (one at your first HD, and one at your 3rd)
Skills: You have 16 ranks to assign (modified for intelligence) and you can have up to 4 ranks in any given skill. Your class skills are Climb, Craft, Fly, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival, and Swim.
When class levels are added on, follow all the same rules for multiclassing (thus you do NOT gain max hp for your first class level since you already got it for your first racial HD). You can also start benefiting from your favored class bonuses (as you can't choose your racial type as a favored class).
That's about it I think. If you have any other questions about playing monstrous characters, feel free to let me know.
EDIT: Don't forget your size modifiers (-1 AC/attacks, +1 CMB/CMD, -4 Stealth, etc.)
Other than the difference on when you get your 'max hit die', RD and I are pretty much exactly the same, he went into more detail with stat blocks. :)
Again, the GM in question needs to decide whether the -1 CR per 3 class levels up to 1/2 is rounded up or down (IE: CR 3 creature get's either 1 or 2 reductions in CR as he levels up). Honestly, I usually rule rounding down, that way CR 1 creatures eventually lose the level adjustment, but that's a GM thing, and there hasn't been an official ruling from the powers that be. I think at level 20, -2 CR for being a centaur is a bit of a heavy stick to hit them with. Again though, there's nothing in the rules on which way to round it, so it's a GM call.
Another way to do it might be to round up, but put a 1 reduction minimum (to take care of those CR 1 monsters).
@RD
On your table, I'm assuming you mean Character Level, not Class Level, on the right hand side of the table.
Other than the difference on when you get your 'max hit die', RD and I are pretty much exactly the same, he went into more detail with stat blocks. :)
It was easy as I've answered these types of questions before. My post is nearly verbatim from an earlier thread.
To the OP: It's amazing what a quick search can do for you.
@RD
On your table, I'm assuming you mean Character Level, not Class Level, on the right hand side of the table.
You could use the term character level if you want.
I said class level because I wanted to better differentiate between class levels and racial hit dice. Since character level includes all your hit dice from your class levels (even from multiple classes) I feared some people would mistakenly lump racial hit dice into that as well.
Other than the difference on when you get your 'max hit die', RD and I are pretty much exactly the same, he went into more detail with stat blocks. :)It was easy as I've answered these types of questions before. My post is nearly verbatim from an earlier thread.
To the OP: It's amazing what a quick search can do for you.
@RD
On your table, I'm assuming you mean Character Level, not Class Level, on the right hand side of the table.You could use the term character level if you want.
I said class level because I wanted to better differentiate between class levels and racial hit dice. Since character level includes all your hit dice from your class levels (even from multiple classes) I feared some people would mistakenly lump racial hit dice into that as well.
Ah, ok, that makes sense then. I think we need a new term. :) Effective Level? Nah, that might get confused with the old effective character level. Hmmm...
Again though, there's nothing in the rules on which way to round it, so it's a GM call.
There actually is something in the rules on which way to round. From Bestiary page 314:
It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down.
So, for a CR 3 creature, the process would be done once, then repeated once (since half of 3 rounded down is 1). Ending at a final of 2 extra levels.
This part of the "Monsters as PCs" rules actually feel a bit unbalanced to me. Especially if the class taken is a melee combat variant. You'll get a higher BAB eventually than you'd get with a regular race. Likewise, if the monster has spellcasting ability equal to its CR (there are several such monsters), then these rules would lead to a higher spellcasting level than normal.
Personally, I think the change from using racial hit dice + level adjustment to simply using CR is an excellent one. I don't feel it was necessary to also add the ability to "buy off" that CR though.
Hmm,
I wonder if that was errata'd in? I don't seem to remember that being there in my first print run copy.
Or maybe I'm just mis-remembering about the 'minimum 1' question I had up that never got answered.
Oh well, I personally think a CR 1 should always get reduced to CR 0 after a couple of levels. At 20th level, that CR 1 bonus is way worse than a loss of a level.
EDIT: If the monster's spell casting level is equal to it's CR, then no, you wouldn't end up with a higher CR. Remember, you also reduce the CR, so when you add the class level, you reduce the CR, thus maintaining parity on the spell caster level.
Remember, you also reduce the CR
You don't, actually. The rules tell you to add extra levels, not to reduce the CR.
Besides, the spellcasting isn't based on the CR. It's just that some monsters happen to have same level spellcasting as their CR. The Ghaele Azata, for instance, but there are some lower-level ones too.
Remember, you also reduce the CRYou don't, actually. The rules tell you to add extra levels, not to reduce the CR.
Besides, the spellcasting isn't based on the CR. It's just that some monsters happen to have same level spellcasting as their CR. The Ghaele Azata, for instance, but there are some lower-level ones too.
Fair enough, I generally don't end up with a lot of PCs with races that have a caster level built in.
However, even then, I'm not sure it's a major issue. Sure, he might end up with an effective caster level higher than his class levels. So can a PC (with feats). He still loses out on all the other goodies from being a caster of that level (bloodline arcana, mysteries, elixers, wizard school benefits, etc). So it's not a huge deal to me either way.
I don't want to threadjack this any further, so I'm spoilering my reply :)
The difference between this and getting a higher caster level due to feats is that you'd actually gain higher levels of spellcasting.
Take a Drider. It is CR 7, and casts spells as a 6th level cleric, sorcerer or wizard. Let's use cleric, and compare it to a human cleric's spellcasting. The number of times to add extra levels is 4 (1 + [CR/2 rounded down]).
The Drider starts play alongside a Human 7th-level Cleric. It is currently at a disadvantage as a caster, being one level behind.
After 3 levels, the Human is a 10th-level Cleric. The Drider, having gained one extra cleric level is now a Drider Cleric 4, and also casts spells as a 10th-level Cleric. They are now equal.
After another 3 levels, the Human is a 13th-level Cleric. The Drider gains another extra level and is now a Drider Cleric 8. It casts spells as a 14th-level Cleric and is one level ahead.
Another 3 levels go by, making the Human a 16th-level Cleric. The Drider gains an extra level, making it a Drider Cleric 12. It now casts spells as an 18th-level Cleric and is two levels ahead.
To me, that is a fairly major issue. The monstrous character in this case gains 8th and 9th level spells at least 1 level earlier than the human character does.
Of course, it's easy to houserule a fix to this, but I still feel the extra added levels are a bit unbalancing. They're probably fine if you take a class that isn't directly enhanced by your race though. Such as a Centaur Cleric.
You don't need to houserule it. The bestiary already says some races have powers that aren't appropriate for player characters.
I would count the drider amongst them.
Depends on the group. In my drow campaign we had an Drider-Outcast as a player character. Wasn´t overpowered (3.5 rules).
DM Fiat fixes all things.
Like.
"Thou shalt not have a higher caster level than your character level".
You are fudging things around anyway..
-S
I don't understand why you should draw new abilities.
The rules are very clear: when the "monster" is not forecast for PC, you have to take abilities as they are written in the Bestiary, that's all.
For Centaur, if player want one, PC will not have the choice of his abilities (15,14,15,11,14,12). Of course, the centaur will gain two extra levels to compensate for as rule p314 say: 1 extra level at level 6 and 1 extra level at level 9.
A DM can always refuse a monster if he think it's overpowered.
If you could please point out where this rule is in the bestiary?
Each pc monster would be inferior to an monster npc with class levels. Maybe ok in a game where your human PC start with 13,11, 11, 10, 10, 10.
Otherwise the monster npc will be heavily underpowered.
And lets assume we are talking about monsters which are not overpowered. No Nymph druids for example. ;)
Some monsters have rules for being played by characters, so bestiary describe racial traits for them, like goblin.
All of those traits can be discovered simply by using the statblock. You wouldn't actually need the "goblin characters" section in order to play a goblin PC; it's simply included because it makes it easier for those who want to do that.
All monstrous NPCs with class levels use either the nonelite array (13-12-11-10-9-8, for monsters with NPC classes) or the elite array (15-14-13-12-10-8, for monsters with PC classes) on top of their normal racial modifiers.
So even if the Pathfinder rules don't specifically spell out that the statblocks in the Bestiary are created using the normal (11-11-11-10-10-10) array, and that normal PC ability generation should be used in addition to those the way the 3.5 rules did, that doesn't mean they don't use those rules.
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Are, the question is not to know how creator did, but what the rules are.
As GM, i don't interpret rules nor search to know what "it is under the words", i just content myself with reading and applying the rules: since i have no more problems and the game goes well...
The devs specified how to find the attribute modifiers for monstrous races. If you choose to ignore that, that's fine. But you're choosing to, it's not that it hasn't been specified.
Monsters DO have class skills; the monster's type determines which of their skills are class skills. Likewise, feats are locked in at one feat per odd-numbered level (although some monsters gain bonus feats; these are indicated in the stat block with a tiny little "B").
As I've mentioned in other threads, playing monstrous PCs is a great way to mess with your game balance, and if you're gonna go ahead and have monstrous PC characters, you should look at EVERYTHING in the monster to determine on a case by case basis if it's overpowered for your game or not.
All monsters in the Bestiary are assumed to start with the following ability scores: 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11. To find out a monster's ability score modifiers, subtract 10 from its even-numbered stats and 11 from its odd-numbered ones; then, generate your monster PC's stats however your GM wants and adjust them with those modifiers.
Both CR and HD are good measuring sticks of a monster's power... but neither is really good ad measuring a monster's power as a Player Character. Of the two, though, CR is the more accurate measuring stick.
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A quick-n-dirty rule:
Do 4d6 drop lowest, or X-point buy, or whatever you normally do.
Then look at the Bestiary, and apply the bonuses/penalties for high/low ability scores directly to the scores you've generated.
So if the monster has a strength of 16 in the Bestiary, that gives it a bonus of +3. If you rolled/bought a strength of 14, then add the +3 bonus onto that, for a strength of 17.
Is it perfect? No. But it's quick and easy, and it doesn't require you to wade through lots of tables and/or calculations.
A quick-n-dirty rule:
Do 4d6 drop lowest, or X-point buy, or whatever you normally do.
Then look at the Bestiary, and apply the bonuses/penalties for high/low ability scores directly to the scores you've generated.
So if the monster has a strength of 16 in the Bestiary, that gives it a bonus of +3. If you rolled/bought a strength of 14, then add the +3 bonus onto that, for a strength of 17.
Is it perfect? No. But it's quick and easy, and it doesn't require you to wade through lots of tables and/or calculations.
Huh?
Monsters and magic items never give odd increases/decreases to ability scores.
In your example, you would add +6, not +3.
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Quick. Easy. Wrong.
Yes, Kthulhu, it is quick and easy.
All monsters in the Bestiary are assumed to start with the following ability scores: 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11. To find out a monster's ability score modifiers, subtract 10 from its even-numbered stats and 11 from its odd-numbered ones; then, generate your monster PC's stats however your GM wants and adjust them with those modifiers.
It means too that the monster-character is built at 0-point cost.
If you want to take a PC creation like 4d6 drop lowest or X-point buy, you MUST increase the CR (so the level) of the monster-character (but not the extra levels gained).
Nothing in the bestiary portion of creating characters indicates you should increase the CR. It says use the listed CR. James Jacobs also didn't say 'Increase the CR due to figuring out stats'. He said 'figure out the stats, and go from there with the rules'.
So no, you wouldn't increase the CR of the monstrous PC based on his calculated stat bonuses. That's already figured into his CR.
The listed monsters in the bestiary represent the species average, just as a human with 10's represents the average human, and an dwarf with a 12 in two stats and a 8 in one represents the average dwarf.
If you want to further penalize monstrous PCs for having rolled or bought stats prior to attribute modifiers, you should penalize core race characters for having stats above the racial average as well.