Do Illusions provide concealment? For example, my illusionist is under missile fire, so he creates a silent image of a wall, and hides behind it. Does he get total concealment? Does it matter if the archers save or not?
Thanks
That is a fascinating question. Where I DMing, yes I'd allow the illusory wall to provide concealment. If the archers make their save, they disbelieve the illusion and see right through it, thereby negating the concealment.
I realize that means illusions can be used to make cheap invisibility effects and similar, but the save is what justifies that. You can't disbelieve invisibility or blur. You wait it out or dispel it.
Agreed. The only qualification I'd add is that I require some sort of standard or move action take place in order to qualify for the saving throw against an illusion. For me, interacting with an illusion means more than just noting it's there and then somehow managing to see the illusion for what it really is.
So, in the case of the archers, they'd get their saving throw after observing their arrows passing through the illusory wall, but not before. Thus, the caster would enjoy concealment against at least that first volley of attacks.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Wait where does it say that the illusion disappears when you make your save ? it simply says you know that its fake , you know that it is a false wall that doesn't mean its not still there and i have yet to find where in the text it says if you disbelieve you can suddenly see through it ?
From the rules about illusions:
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A silent image is a figment. A creature making its save against a figment can see through the illusion, which at that point for that creature appears to be nothing than a "translucent outline."
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Agreed. The only qualification I'd add is that I require some sort of standard or move action take place in order to qualify for the saving throw against an illusion. For me, interacting with an illusion means more than just noting it's there and then somehow managing to see the illusion for what it really is.
So, in the case of the archers, they'd get their saving throw after observing their arrows passing through the illusory wall, but not before. Thus, the caster would enjoy concealment against at least that first volley of attacks.
I agree with this, with the further addition that if the archers were already attacking or imminently attacking the caster and a wall suddenly appears, they would immediately qualify for a save then as well.
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I would disagree that just upon the initial appearance of a wall suddenly that they get a save...wizards can cast walls of other materials and those are real, so why would an illusion of a wall suddenly provoke a save to disbelieve?
Something would have to happen to actively make the wall unbelievable, imho. Another party member running through it, someone shooting through it, the archer walking up to it and rapping upon it or poking it with his bow, SOMETHING other than just the walls sudden appearance.
I agree with this, with the further addition that if the archers were already attacking or imminently attacking the caster and a wall suddenly appears, they would immediately qualify for a save then as well.
I could see that, but I'd not rule that way as DM. The suddenly appearing wall could, after all, be a wall. Until the archers have evidence that the wall isn't a wall (for example, their arrows passing right through it), then, for me, there's no saving throw permitted.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
There have been plenty of arguments in these threads that paralyzed people still get Reflex saves from fireballs because the save represents heroic luck, etc., as well as the character actively trying to dodge the fireball (passive as well as proactive). Perhaps the same argument can be made for Will saves to disbelieve a suddenly-appearing wall. Not so much the character actively peering at the wall trying to see through it, but just the character happening to notice that something is 'not right' with the wall (improper shadow, a two-inch gap underneath it where the ground dipped, the 'texture' is off).
Earlier, somebody mentioned that an archer would get a will save after his first volley went through the wall. I don't know about you, but if I'm an archer and a stone wall suddenly appears in front of my target, I'm choosing a different target, or do archers now have to try their first volley at all conjured walls to see if they're illusions?
Personally I've long ruled that "spotting" or interacting with an illusion from distance requires an active perception(sport) check. Remember you can use perception actively as a move action. "I'm looking for gaps in the wall," would be a move action and in the case of an illusion allow a save outside other kinds of interaction or proof.
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Speaking from memory:
If I'm not mistaken, a large majority of illusion spells require you to physically interact with an illusion in some way before you can disbelieve it (ie. arrow goes through it, you try to climb it, or most recently for me, try to walk out on a fake bridge.)
Though the above assumptions may be different for the Silent Image Plus spells. I remember they had ever so slightly different stipulations than say illusionary wall.
This is why you don't create an illusion of a wall. You create an illusion of smoke or fog. It is entirely reasonable to see arrows fly through it.
This is why you don't create an illusion of a wall. You create an illusion of smoke or fog. It is entirely reasonable to see arrows fly through it.
That's actually a pretty good idea. Plus, since illusions become transparent when you know it is an illusion it wouldn't interfere with your own vision, right?
I would still create a wall, because what archer would check if a wall is real by shooting at it? I don't know how much NPC's expect something to be an illusion, but I guess it's not that much.
On fog, they will try to shoot to your last location, or something like that. A wall is much clearer that he should find a new target.
Well, just my opinion.
Altough I do agree that interacting with fog is unlikely to trigger the will save.
I would still create a wall, because what archer would check if a wall is real by shooting at it? I don't know how much NPC's expect something to be an illusion, but I guess it's not that much.
On fog, they will try to shoot to your last location, or something like that. A wall is much clearer that he should find a new target.
Well, just my opinion.
Altough I do agree that interacting with fog is unlikely to trigger the will save.
Cast Silent Image and 5-foot step to the left. Let them shoot at an empty square. It means they're not doing something useful this round.