I think my skill at creating a villian surpasses my party's ability to play. The party, a cold sorcerous, rogue, Fighter/bard/arcane archer, and Healer Cleric is going after their arch nemesis, a tenth level Antipaladin Vampire.
All things being equal, I don't think my party can win. They have given him enough time to dig in and build a network of allies and underlings. He holds two of the party member's mother hostage. He has given enough clues and blatently targeted information to throw the party into out and out tunnel vision to kill him.
I have warned the party that tenth level the kid gloves came off, they have been playing since 3rd level and know their characters enough that they shouldn't need me to hold back. I also warned them that this nemesis was built like them and was going to be played like the evil mastermind he is.
So, what do I do. Build the encounter/encounters and let the party face likely destruction, or tone down what is supposed to be the major villian they have been after since lvl 6?
As you didn't really get into the specifics of what they are, or what they face, all the advice i can give is: give 'em hell. If they all die at least it will be the fight of their lives, if they succeed they'll remember it always as it sounds like you've really built this up.
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assuming a TPK, then its even more motivation for the party to redo new characters, maybe a group of wanna-be adventurers who hero worshipped the TPK'd party, and want to avenge them or follow in their footsteps. Further, if the TPK looks eminent, then just have the Vamp pull back and bellow "Foolish mortals, you are no match for me! Begone and leave me alone lest I vamp your mothers, vex me no longer for next time I shall show no mercy!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!" or something ot that effect and let them gear up, adventure up and plan ahead a little better. nothing like rubbing salt in the wounds of their latest ass kicking to motivate a party.
You could be really mean and plan a contingency for their death... Undeath - under the control of the Vampire.
Then after a session or two give them a real chance to break free of his command, restore their lives and have another shot at killing him.
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I think my skill at creating a villian surpasses my party's ability to play. The party, a cold sorcerous, rogue, Fighter/bard/arcane archer, and Healer Cleric is going after their arch nemesis, a tenth level Antipaladin Vampire.
All things being equal, I don't think my party can win. They have given him enough time to dig in and build a network of allies and underlings. He holds two of the party member's mother hostage. He has given enough clues and blatently targeted information to throw the party into out and out tunnel vision to kill him.
I have warned the party that tenth level the kid gloves came off, they have been playing since 3rd level and know their characters enough that they shouldn't need me to hold back. I also warned them that this nemesis was built like them and was going to be played like the evil mastermind he is.
So, what do I do. Build the encounter/encounters and let the party face likely destruction, or tone down what is supposed to be the major villian they have been after since lvl 6?
In my opinion as a DM it's your job to build encounters that the PCs can win... just because the PCs aren't interested in or can't optimize or aren't "as good" at the game as you doesn't mean they should be TPKd....
Just accept it and make it easier. Throw em a bone!
In my opinion as a DM it's your job to build encounters that the PCs can win... just because the PCs aren't interested in or can't optimize or aren't "as good" at the game as you doesn't mean they should be TPKd....Just accept it and make it easier. Throw em a bone!
+1
Of course you can make a character that can kill the party - you're the DM!
It's not a competition. Your not about wiping the floor with them and then say "That'll teach you not to optimise your characters!" It's about making great, fun stories. (And usually the coolest options aren't the most optimal.
Take them to edge - but no TPKs. They're supposed to triumph over difficult odds and win!
Cheers
Mark
my first answer would be, don't let it end this way! Something that went on for so long, shouldn't end like that.
but I didn't say, don't kill'em all :)
either tone it down a bit, or let the vampire kill them all, turn them into vampires, let them play vampires, but somehow they still got their soul, so they want to turn human again. Let them explain to the local temple that they are blood-sucking vampires who wants to become human.
This would be how I play it, it's fun, it's something new, and you throw them off balance. Perhaps they like being vampires, who knows?
Or if the vampire is too strong, suggest that the PC's should flee. Just let them lvl up 1-2 lvls, and don't lvl up the vampire, that should even it out.
Enjoy :)
Edit: ups, oversaw General Chaos answer, +1 for that then ^^
I think my skill at creating a villian surpasses my party's ability to play....
All things being equal, I don't think my party can win,
....they shouldn't need me to hold back.
These seem to contradict. I would not play the adversarial DM unless the party enjoys it, but I would also not let them win unless they like that also. I don't know enough about your group to really make any suggestions.
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I think my skill at creating a villian surpasses my party's ability to play...
Lots of good advice here but surely the main advice is - you're the DM, it's impossible for you to create a villain that is not at exactly the level you want it to be at.
You can change this villain at any time, as much or as little as you like. If it is too challenging for the party then that is your responsibility.
There is a lot of good advise here and I intend on putting a lot of it to good use, thanks, but I need to clarify a few things. I am a horrible jerk to my players with story line RP, but they like me that way. I twist hooks into backgrounds and bring back people that they never would expect, and make their lives an RP nightmare. RP has never been a problem with my group, if anything they have gotten TOO into character at times.
Combat is where I am having an issue. I don't want to kill them, and I fully know that no PC can beat the DM if the DM is being a jerk. The genuine problem is that I'm trying to make a challenging encounter for the party, CR+2 to CR+3, and setting it up in a reasonably evil "I know you have been coming for me" villian kind of way. I've built this guy up in such a way that if I tone it down too much the party will feel cheated.
What I mean by not pulling punches is this. The party was fighting a CR appropriate Red Dragon, juvinile I think, near the edge of a caldera of magma. The party situated itself right at the edge. I played nice and didnt' have the dragon's first turn be Bullrush followed next turn by grapple and jump into the magma. Both of those would have been perfectly reasonable things for a relativly intellegent dragon to do, since 4 on 1 usually bodes badly for the 1.
There is a lot of good advise here and I intend on putting a lot of it to good use, thanks, but I need to clarify a few things. I am a horrible jerk to my players with story line RP, but they like me that way. I twist hooks into backgrounds and bring back people that they never would expect, and make their lives an RP nightmare. RP has never been a problem with my group, if anything they have gotten TOO into character at times.
Combat is where I am having an issue. I don't want to kill them, and I fully know that no PC can beat the DM if the DM is being a jerk. The genuine problem is that I'm trying to make a challenging encounter for the party, CR+2 to CR+3, and setting it up in a reasonably evil "I know you have been coming for me" villian kind of way. I've built this guy up in such a way that if I tone it down too much the party will feel cheated.
What I mean by not pulling punches is this. The party was fighting a CR appropriate Red Dragon, juvinile I think, near the edge of a caldera of magma. The party situated itself right at the edge. I played nice and didnt' have the dragon's first turn be Bullrush followed next turn by grapple and jump into the magma. Both of those would have been perfectly reasonable things for a relativly intellegent dragon to do, since 4 on 1 usually bodes badly for the 1.
Why precisely do you expect them to die?
From this post I'm guessing it's because they don't do ANY tactical thinking and simply go "hurr, hurr stand here and throw lots of damage dice at it". Then I'm inclined to say "TPK the lot of them, then maybe they'll start thinking about fighting smart."
If it's because the way you built him up you see him as having so many allies that the PCs will be overwhelmed then it's a little different story.
Have you given them hints (and I mean neon light hints, not needle in a haystack) as to how many allies he has? What those allies are? Why they are allied with him?
Have you given them a chance to find out information about his set up? His personal combat style? What sort of fortifications he has?
Have you given them a chance to recruit allies of their own to hold of the henchmen?
If the answer to those question is "no" then I'd push the fight back slightly and put those opportunities in. If you do or if you already have and they simply ignored them and want to go with "kick down the door by ourselves and kill everything that moves".....well at that point they have made their bed RP wise, time to lay in it, forever.
The party was fighting a CR appropriate Red Dragon, juvinile I think, near the edge of a caldera of magma. The party situated itself right at the edge. I played nice and didnt' have the dragon's first turn be Bullrush followed next turn by grapple and jump into the magma. Both of those would have been perfectly reasonable things for a relativly intellegent dragon to do, since 4 on 1 usually bodes badly for the 1.
A point on this. There are some tactics I avoid using because they ruin the fun of the game. These are:
Save or Die. Useless if you make it, unfun if you don't.
Focused Fire: Pretty much the best tactic out there, but if you do it on the PCs then 1 or maybe 2 go down and the others frequently aren't touched. It also tends to make the 1 or 2 feel very singled out.
Snipe: This is less for D&D than for other systems. While it's a great tactic it can be incredibly frustrating for the characters. Nothing fun about walking down the street and without warning having a bullet/arrow through your head.
Having said that I would have had the Red Dragon do EXACTLY what you avoided. If a creature isn't stupid I try not to play it as stupid. If you do then next time they probably won't make that mistake. It could be that they don't really think tactically because it hasn't been required in the game before.
Why precisely do you expect them to die?
From this post I'm guessing it's because they don't do ANY tactical thinking and simply go "hurr, hurr stand here and throw lots of damage dice at it". Then I'm inclined to say "TPK the lot of them, then maybe they'll start thinking about fighting smart."
If it's because the way you built him up you see him as having so many allies that the PCs will be overwhelmed then it's a little different story.
Have you given them hints (and I mean neon light hints, not needle in a haystack) as to how many allies he has? What those allies are? Why they are allied with him?
Have you given them a chance to find out information about his set up? His personal combat style? What sort of fortifications he has?
Have you given them a chance to recruit allies of their own to hold of the henchmen?
If the answer to those question is "no" then I'd push the fight back slightly and put those opportunities in. If you do or if you already have and they simply ignored them and want to go with "kick down the door by ourselves and kill everything that moves".....well at that point they have made their bed RP wise, time to lay in it, forever.
I expect them to die because: they are going to panic when they see their mother, who is fully affected by stockholm syndrom, attacking them to defend her master; the vampire hits like a truck and has an AC in the 30s; and because the vampire also has an int of 18 and has researched the party will not allow them to fight him fresh.
I have not given them any hits as to any of your referenced information because they have taken no initative to learn any of this. When they do, I already have packets of information for them...provided they actually put any effort into recon.
Having said that I would have had the Red Dragon do EXACTLY what you avoided. If a creature isn't stupid I try not to play it as stupid. If you do then next time they probably won't make that mistake. It could be that they don't really think tactically because it hasn't been required in the game before.
My best friend ran dragons as one of the most dangerous encounters in the game because they are so smart. He passed away a few years back but durring that whole combat I heard him lecturing me for playing the "dur dur dur...i'm a big dumb dragon" dragon.
Combat is where I am having an issue. I don't want to kill them, and I fully know that no PC can beat the DM if the DM is being a jerk. The genuine problem is that I'm trying to make a challenging encounter for the party, CR+2 to CR+3, and setting it up in a reasonably evil "I know you have been coming for me" villian kind of way. I've built this guy up in such a way that if I tone it down too much the party will feel cheated.
Keep in mind PF mechanics for combat difficulty are a bit different from 3.5. Throwing a CR = Avg Party Level (APL) + 5 encounter at the PCs is not as horrible as it used to be. Yes, some death will be likely without proper strategy against a CR = APL + 5, but it is quite often possible for a party to vanquish a foe like this (or at least run away). Remember, "challenging" encounters are APL + 1 -- and PF parties can fly through many of those without rest. A CR = APL + 2 or 3 is not as TPK-worthy as it used to be.
Just make sure you calculate the CR fairly. If you know that a PC will have an insanity-worthy meltdown seeing his mom as a vampire slave, that should be factored into the CR. You should factor additional combatants and environmental factors -- as well as time crunches, roleplaying limitations, and anything that adds significant difficulty to the encounter. Throwing a high CR encounter at the PCs is fine, but if it's way too high (CR > APL + 5 or so) or custom-tailored to cause the PCs to fail, the result is going to be obvious.
Play a smart villan as a smart villian. If the PCs die, they die. As long as you have ways they could have avoided, weakened, or otherwise dealth with the encounter not through a straight up fight, you did you job. Don't let stupid players lead you to stupid tactics yourself.
And keep in mind that PCs can suprise you. Many times my GM thought he would TPK us and we trivialized the encounter. And many times the GM thought it would be an easy fight and we took massive damage.
I think my skill at creating a villian surpasses my party's ability to play.
*WTF-am-I-reading?.jpg*
No. Your "skill" at creating a villain is measured in how well the villain works, not how adept you are to optimize the poop out of things. It's piss easy for a GM to "win", you are essentially GOD, with cheat-codes.
A _good_ GM makes a villain memorable, a good challenge, and creates a showdown that will test the abilities of the players and make everyone feel like it was an epic group effort to bring him down.
I agree that the kids gloves come off after the party gains the power to raise dead. A death in the party at lv10 is kinda like having a magical weapon sundered at lv5. It sucks, might cost you a bundle of cash, but doesn't screw you over. I can tell from just looking at the party make-up that they are not optimizers or munchkins, which in my not-so-humble opinion should be rewarded by not having to deal with an optimizing GM. Make the villain FAIR, and believable. Take some feats that are not GREAT, but make him more interesting, and avoid 3.5 crap to make him immune to positive energy, sunlight, stakes and holy damage. Give him levels of Aristocrat or something. You know, make him organic and alive (*pauses for studio laughter at obvious vampire pun*) instead of "The baddest NPC EVAR!!1!1".
And if it applies at all: Never "protect" your work as a GM. Let it go. At higher levels, you need to work 2 hours real time to produce 5 rounds of combat. It is how it is. Our work as GMs is essentially like building snowmen. We spend hours to make the most awesome snowmen ever, but in the end, they melt away and nothing is left. But do it right, and people will talk about the awesome snowmen long afterward.
No. Your "skill" at creating a villain is measured in how well the villain works, not how adept you are to optimize the poop out of things. It's piss easy for a GM to "win", you are essentially GOD, with cheat-codes.
Oops.
I think my skill at creating a villian surpasses my party's ability to play.
I was careless with my words. I should have said that my party has a problem dealing with well crafted and prepaired villians. They tend to over think things and then over complicate their responses.
I can tell from just looking at the party make-up that they are not optimizers or munchkins, which in my not-so-humble opinion should be rewarded by not having to deal with an optimizing GM. Make the villain FAIR, and believable.
I couldn't agree more. The fact that they have survived this long being non optimizers speaks to my non-optimization as a GM. The archer qualified for Arcane Archer using the Bard class...great RP, but really? Problem is, in this case, they were already warned, he is a very bad man.
Our work as GMs is essentially like building snowmen. We spend hours to make the most awesome snowmen ever, but in the end, they melt away and nothing is left. But do it right, and people will talk about the awesome snowmen long afterward.
Nothing would make me happier than to see them walk out of this the victor with no party death. I hate this villian because he is a product of one players obsession with a napkin npc gang leader, but he has been a motivation for this game up until now, so this encounter needs to be the culmination of the efforts on the party's part thus far.
Give him a flaw. A magic item that protects him from the sun. A few clues and the party breaks the item or discovers the weakness and turns a meatgrinder into a salad shooter. The weakness or flaw should be protected. But if the party uses it the villian should feel the burn. Or give them an environment effect to aid them. Start a fire. The vampire has to worry about the party and the environment. Kick it around you'll think of something.
Kill one or all of the players, fine. But look inward. Make sure it is worth it.
If you go about killing players and the players just get mad or sad, then you've wasted your own time and theirs. You're not good at making villains, in that case.
If you manage to kill one of them, and the rest mourn and always remember what happened, then you made a good villain.
After that, if they manage to subdue that real and present threat without losing anyone, then hell, they deserve it.
Bottom line, a good villain is balanced with the party to be a real, but not impossible, challenge. A good GM is the one who can find that mark.
(also, I like Mr. Fishy's idea too)
(also, I like Mr. Fishy's idea too)
YOU TAKE THAT BACK...wait oh...um...Thank you...Evil...Damn Air Breather.
Snarky Answer: Well, you reap what you sow.
Constructive Answer: The preview battle. Look, even 18 INT is at the mercy of dumb luck. Situate something that's the functional equal of walking into the the corner Starbucks at the same time and no one's prepared. Or a situation where there's a time limit for the enemy. Or where the players have a slight edge. Or where the battle isn't really the point, because there's a non-combat objective the players can secure to "win" the day, (or vice-versa). The point is to give them a solid thrashing without hitting TPK.
First, well, first, there's nothing that riles up a bunch of players than "the one who got away," but the objective is to make the players collectively swear, and swear loudly, when they have the sudden realization that they're wholly and totally unclassed, and in a normal situation, they'd be vampire chow.
Once they know that they need to step up their collective game in order to actually beat this guy, they may do so. If all goes well, they'll be asking for those packets of information.
However, I am a little worried about those packets of locked away information. It may be that your clues to follow those trails of information aren't as clear-cut as you think they are.
However, I am a little worried about those packets of locked away information. It may be that your clues to follow those trails of information aren't as clear-cut as you think they are.
I have placed an impostor nemesis in the common district of the city. He is parading around as a local Lord and his darling and pregnant wife is the spitting image of the party member's mother. He galavants around the district doing good in both daylight and darkness. Completely at odds with the real villian and yet this man knows some of the more intimate details of the hero/villian relationship.
Each night, at dusk, hundreds of cloaked individuals walk every street of the common district. They say nothing to anyone and have caused no trouble. It has become an odd curiosity within the district, however, their presence has reduced the crime in the area and everyone is happy for it. A local church who's priests are mostly paladins detect nothing when inspecting these individuals. They disappear at dawn each day.
Asking questions about the lord will discover that he is a handsomly paid actor who is playing a role, so is his wife. He is yet another distraction to puzzle the party and buy the villian time.
Asking questions about the "night walkers" gets the very basic information given above. Questioning a "night walker" will probably result in an "encounter" with a zealot loyal to their nemesis. If they don't kill the zealot, they have the opportunity to learn a good deal about the villian's plans.
These are the biggest clues to the right paths to earn information. Any feedback on refining them? Figure the Diplomacy to get the information on the actor is between 25 and 30 since everyone has been very well compinsated.
Those aren't really clues. Think smaller, and think what motivates them to follow up on the clues.
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I think you've got a pretty good thing going.
At first I was going to post that, yeah, only a horrible DM would stick with a BBEG-build knowing it would be a TPK -- and that is still true.
But if your CR 13? BBEG is only +3 above the PCs' APL of 10, all should be fine.
. . . . Here's my advice:
Knowing the PCs are gonna be surprised and weakened when they roll init vs your vampire, give them an out, an escape route to run away through. Make 'em earn it, yes, but make sure they can do it -- even if it's without Mom.
The BBEG knows them. Now they'll know the BBEG.
And can come back tomorrow with more anger (It's got Mom!) and more prepared (We know he knows our tactics.)
At the very least -- and this sucks but here's a place where it can work -- have Mom become a Deus ex machina just before the TPK round, nothing big, something like Regis blowing out a candle to save Drizzt, Mom could throw herself in front of the vampire (provoking an OA and dying) to disrupt his action and give the PCs each one more round in which to win).
At the very least -- and this sucks but here's a place where it can work -- have Mom become a Deus ex machina just before the TPK round, nothing big, something like Regis blowing out a candle to save Drizzt, Mom could throw herself in front of the vampire (provoking an OA and dying) to disrupt his action and give the PCs each one more round in which to win).
I like it. In both cases, it gives the party a way to win and gives the two party members a warm and fuzzy feeling that mom was playing along and was never corrupted.
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Well, not "never corrupted," more like "corupted but then saw my children were gonna get killed and got a new Save" or something.
Anyway, giving them a chance to run away in terror, leaving Mom in the process, is still the best bet from my point of view (not knowing your Players or your style or the whole situation).
But if things go downhill too fast, sacrificing Mom to save the PCs may work.
Have fun and tell us how it all turns out.
He's an evil mastermind you say? Might I suggest that they only find a thrall that looks like him so he can better gauge their abilities from afar?
This will also give the PCs a chance to guess how much stronger the BBEG is, and be ready for it.
I really like that idea. Especially if I make the thrall strong but not as strong as the nemesis. Yes, the BBEG has sacrificed a valueable resource to the party, but then he knows how strong they are. He will be better prepared, but then the thrall won't be there for the real fight.
So, here is the other problem. Page 270 Bestiary:
"If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, a vampire assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed...Additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect."
A smart vampire has either built in or found a system of tubes or cracks into his lair. Those channels lead a long distance off to his hidden cubby hole containing his coffin. The only way to get to said coffin would be to dig. Since he can assume gaseous form at will, he has no need to have a way in or out for anything other than himself.
If I have the coffin easily accessable, it is a cop out on the "mastermind" aspect and if I have it hidden like it should be it is a giant middle finger to the party. Any thoughs?
He's an evil mastermind you say? Might I suggest that they only find a thrall that looks like him so he can better gauge their abilities from afar?
This will also give the PCs a chance to guess how much stronger the BBEG is, and be ready for it.
I really like that idea. Especially if I make the thrall strong but not as strong as the nemesis. Yes, the BBEG has sacrificed a valueable resource to the party, but then he knows how strong they are. He will be better prepared, but then the thrall won't be there for the real fight.
So, here is the other problem. Page 270 Bestiary:
"If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, a vampire assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed...Additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect."
A smart vampire has either built in or found a system of tubes or cracks into his lair. Those channels lead a long distance off to his hidden cubby hole containing his coffin. The only way to get to said coffin would be to dig. Since he can assume gaseous form at will, he has no need to have a way in or out for anything other than himself.
If I have the coffin easily accessable, it is a cop out on the "mastermind" aspect and if I have it hidden like it should be it is a giant middle finger to the party. Any thoughs?
I'd stick the coffin inside about a 10 foot thick stone replica reinforced with steel and with a thin sheet of lead to block divinations. And that is inside a room that is down a series of hallways, in the center of a maze filled with traps and guardians that roam all around. Make it so that if they're fast and smart they can get in, and maybe even destroy the coffin. Otherwise...have a thrall with an item of Stone Shape always near the coffin so that he can get out, take out his coffin and then skedaddle to be a thorn in their side another day. If you wanna be evil, put sarcophagi in all the hallways, one of which is a secret door that leads to his coffin-chamber, and another of which contains his thrall, who I'd expect would be a vampire or some such thing.
Just a few ideas on a spur of the moment. Last time I did a maze I built it with angled corners enchanted to reflect lightning bolts, and had dead ends that had statues that shot lightning down the hall when a creature came into line of sight. Was nasty, but fun.
So, I ran parts for my party. They had the chance to get second party information about the "night walkers" from a group of inquisitors who didnt' care so much that these people weren't breaking the law, exactly. The inquisitors had a gut feeling about them being bad business. The problem the inquisitors had was all the information was out of context and they didn't ask the right questions for the party's use. The information did, however, confirm the suspision that the party's nemesis is behind these "night walkers."
The party has decided to capture and question a night walker and ask the questions they need answers to.
I am going to throw them up against a vampire bard 6 fighter 3, the origional build of this nemesis when he was human, the un-natural method of his resurrection as a vampire has allowed him to retrain his abilities(I allow retraining in my games if a player asks). I already have the character sheet and this provides nice dry run for the party. I figure I'll have two or three spawn with him to make things interesting.
I was going to say, have the vampire attached to the Mom. She gets hurt and the vampire tries to join the fight directly(very bad for a controller like him, I know from experience). This goes double if he was trying to keep her aside and she jumps into harms way.
Another option is that the vampire tries to use a fatal teleport trap but it fails and they go to The Cleaves. See The Cleaves in Homebrew.