I'm currently running a game and my players are becoming pretty frustrated towards the summoner's eidolon which is overshadowing the rest of the party in every single combat encounter. The party, which is 5th level, consists of a fighter, a rogue, a druid, a sorcerer and a summoner. The eidolon is a quadruped (some sort of hell-hound) with a bite attack, 2 claws (improved), a gore attack, energy attacks, power attack and most importantly, pounce. Whenever he makes a charge with power attack, his attack routine looks like this:
Bite +7 1d6+7 +1d6 fire damage
2 claws +7 1d6+7 +1d6 fire damage
Gore +7 1d6+7 +1d6 fire damage
And this is unbuffed. He's got bull's strength to make these numbers even higher and after reading through the share spells class ability, he can apparently cast enlarge person on it as well. This might not be so bad if it was easy to kill, but with mage armor cast it has a high AC, and every single time it's close to dying the summoner can just take damage for it, acting as a HP battery in the back.
It's very hard to create challenging encounters for eidolon without overpowering the rest of the party. I know making terrain to block charges and such is an option but I don't want every single fight to be in that kind of environment. This is a very big problem in my group and frankly I don't really know what to do except outright banning the summoner class.
What can I do?
Apply the appropriate protection spell if the Summoner is good/evil. The Eidolon should be unable to attack those protected by the appropos Pro Vs Alignment Spell. We houseruled that the Eidolon shares the summoners alignment.... Protection Vs good/evil has a caveat that should help that I don't beleive was prohibited under the Summoner rules. Read the spell... the 3rd use of the Spell prevents summoned creatures from attacking characters so warded. This last for the duration or until said warded creature/character attacks teh summoned beastie. Of course this is trumped by a Nuetral Summoner summoning the opposed alignments or nuetral creatures. Also, a bad guy with levitate or fly trumps it anyway... just to name a couple of possibilities.
What's the rest of the party look like? I'm finding it hard to believe that the eidolon's hitting consistently enough to be that scary. Also, fire resistance is already available, and if I was fighting a hellhound, I'd bring that to the table. Finally, let the summoner suck up some damage-then hit the party from behind. Or catch both eidolon and summoner in one or two well-placed blasts. Being an HP battery cuts both ways here.
To be fair, the fighter should be developing nicely by now, and the druid's wildshape should be doing the same. The eidolon's supposed to be tough, but give the others a little time.
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Flying creatures and archers would be good choices, and the occasional NPC that knows what an Eidolon is and knows to attack the Summoner isn't impossible(add a bunch of minions so the Eidolon is distracted).
A Mirror of Opposition is also a subtle reminder that the DM has access to everything the players do.
Or talk to the player and explain the thoughts of the rest of the group, then propose a compromise.*
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Apply the appropriate protection spell if the Summoner is good/evil. The Eidolon should be unable to attack those protected by the appropos Pro Vs Alignment Spell. We houseruled that the Eidolon shares the summoners alignment.... Protection Vs good/evil has a caveat that should help that I don't beleive was prohibited under the Summoner rules. Read the spell... the 3rd use of the Spell prevents summoned creatures from attacking characters so warded. This last for the duration or until said warded creature/character attacks teh summoned beastie. Of course this is trumped by a Nuetral Summoner summoning the opposed alignments or nuetral creatures. Also, a bad guy with levitate or fly trumps it anyway... just to name a couple of possibilities.
Um... I am afraid that the normal Protection Vs. Spells don't work on Eidolons unfortunately.
Apply the appropriate protection spell if the Summoner is good/evil. The Eidolon should be unable to attack those protected by the appropos Pro Vs Spell.... Read the spell... the 3rd use of the Spell prevents summoned creatures from attacking characters so warded. This last for the duration or until said warded creature/character attacks teh summoned beastie. Of course this is trumped by a Nuetral Summoner summoning the opposed alignments or nuetral creatures. Also, a bad guy with levitate or fly trumps it anyway... just to name a couple of possibilities.
Pro Evil and company don't stop eidolons. Check the summoner class description, heading is Eidolon:
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.
Flight's good too. Distance attacks could be nasty, especially a decent archer with Rapid Shot and Manyshot.
The rest of the party is by no means bad, they all have something to bring to the table. The rogue is pretty cookie cutter TWF, the fighter is using trip, the druid has battlefield control and the sorcerer blasts/debuffs/charms his way through. The fighter is probably the biggest contender to the eidolon in terms of damage, but with only one attack each round, even if he mostly hits he's still grossly outdamaged by the eidolon.
The summoner is chaotic neutral, so I can't really use any anti-evil stuff against him and justifying using anti-chaos stuff in my current story would be... weird.
I know flying enemies are an option, but I'm looking for something that doesn't cripple the rest of the group as well.
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Prot circles do not apply to Eidolon pg 55 APG
This player's Eidolin seems very similar to mine in our PF campaign. At about 5th lvl yes you can have a quad pet with elemental attacks as well as multi-attack of 4 attacks. You are not alone!
Yes my pet can dish out alot of damage more that the druid's bear in our party. Given the drawbacks of such a pet as the Eidolon such as ease of mobility and shared magic item slots (see Link (Ex) on pg 58 AGP. This Summoner Class has been given ALOT of nerfing since the Alpha, and given the high powered game feel of PF I think my summoner is pretty much on par with any dps class out there such as fighter or Warmage. Her spell utlity is buffing mostly, I have had to put feat and skill points in to UMD to boost her versatility but this also becomes an expensive route for the party. Over all Summoners were VERY OP in Alpha but with subsequent nerfs has been relegated to a decent dps/buff class.
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What can I do?
Go after/disable the summoner. Unless you are running mindless monsters they will understand that the thing is under its control.
Something as simple as a sleep spell or an effect that knocks them unconscious will make the eidolon go *POOF.*In addition try to figure out a way to separate the two, if you get them more than 100 feet away from one another you just reduced the max HP the creature has. This doesn't erase damage so if the creature suffered 19 damage and its max HP is only 37 the thing will go unconscious.
It looks like the Summoner is a class that is front loaded - in a game where everything else is back loaded (and never reached)
Play villians a little smarter....This build is strictly offensive....
Tell me about the E's
Hit points
saves
ACI am sure that the AC is much worse than the fighter in the party or others.......
Also remember weapons that can be braced for a charge! Longspear! (AKA skewer)
His hit points are in the 30s, not far below that of the fighter. This number is a lot higher when a halfling summoner standing in the back is constantly giving him his HP when he gets low, though.
His regular AC is 17, but is brought up to 21 with mage armor (which lasts for hours).
I hadn't thought much about his weak save (will saves), and I'll definitely try using spellcasters that target that in the runs to come.
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His regular AC is 17, but is brought up to 21 with mage armor (which lasts for hours).
Keep in mind that for this to be the case the creature would have had to be built with all of its allocated armor bonus put into natural armor. I am not saying it isn't possible or even likely but the thing better have some really thick hide, scales, or maybe even armor plating on it to justify that much natural armor.
If any AC was assigned to "Armor" then he would have to describe the creature as WEARING armor, and it wouldn't stack with the mage armor spell.
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His hit points are in the 30s, not far below that of the fighter. This number is a lot higher when a halfling summoner standing in the back is constantly giving him his HP when he gets low, though.
His regular AC is 17, but is brought up to 21 with mage armor (which lasts for hours).
I hadn't thought much about his weak save (will saves), and I'll definitely try using spellcasters that target that in the runs to come.
Not sure what the summoner in your group is doing I know myself I generally stay very close to my Eidolin if not based, not only because she is NOT a nuker unless using wands but because of buffing spells and shared defense. Going after the summoner is a good tactic simply for the fact that for all intents and purposes they are like any other caster soft and squishy.
Out last fight we fought a CR 10 with our lvl 6 party so of course we were in for a good fight. The Boss's flight SR high AC and the relatively confined fighting space effectively negated any contribution I could make not to mention rolling a nat "1" on my UMD right off the bat.
Bottom line every class has its strengths and weaknesses you as GM have to figure them out and out fox your players
It also seems that your summoner might be using the HP transfer ability incorrectly. Your summoner cannot transfer HP whenever he/she wants. The ability is only usable if an attack would send the Eidolon back to it's home plane which is not when it would reach 0 HP, rather when it would be reduced to a number of negative HP equal to its constitution score.
"Whenever the eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to its home plane, the summoner can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of hit points. Each hit point sacrificed in this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon. This can prevent the eidolon from being sent back to its home plane."
"Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score."
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Confusion is generally quite nasty against an eidolon. Glitterdust attacks it's poor will save. Anything that requires ranged combat, fighting across a gorge or fighting flying creatures.
It is entirely reasonable for enemy casters to target the eidolon and for that matter it's reasonable for an intelligent enemy to figure out that targeting the summoner instead might be the better bet (I wouldn't have every enemy do this though).
Enemies that are resistant to fire won't be hurt as badly by the eidolon's attacks. Also, eidolons don't do great against enemies with DR/ silver/ cold iron, as long as your other characters can overcome that they will shine a bit more. Just DR/ magic usually isn't enough because eidolons often get greater magic fang.
Not sure how he is hitting things for a lot of damage with only +7 to hit, especially if he needs to charge to get that. At lvl 5 the average AC of the stuff I'm fighting is arround 25, since that is what most of the PCs have. That damage looks decent, but I'm not that impressed. If you have a tripping fighter, he should be doing 2d4+19 with a fairly standard build, +2 str item, and +2 glaive. That is with a +11 to hit, and you could change a +1 hit and damge for annother d6 damage with flaming (not that I would on a tripper). Not quite as much DPR, but the fighter will catch up and exceed bigE at lvl 6 with his itterative attack. And this thing cannot have anywhere near the AC or HP of the fighter, even with mage armor. He's got 32 HP, if he put his point into con, instead of the Fighter's 49 average (14 con), and AC barely breaking 20 with the mage armor instead of the mid 20s.
The summoner cannot keep his eidolon up and fighting by sacrificing his own life. He can only keep an unconcious eidolon on this plane if it would be otherwise die. The eidolon must be at -con in order for the summoner to transfer life. If you haven't been playing this way, it could be a huge issue.
James hits the key points here. I think it is less that the summoner is overpowered, and more that your other characters are not very optimal (also, 5th level is hard on Fighters). The fighter's attack bonus should be well ahead of the summon's, as should most of his defenses. With only +7 to hit I wouldn't expect the summon to even be competitive at that level.
That said, if you insist on debuffing the summoner instead of doing something with the sub-par fighter, I'd suggest removing pounce from available options, since without it's +2 bonus the summon should have an incredibly difficult time connecting.
Just some thoughts...
Making charging less possible doesn't require everything being difficult terrain, just not having everything be a huge empty field. Even archers standing behind bushes or inn tables are protected from charges - remember you have to charge in a straight line, move at least 10 feet, and can't even pass through ally squares - bone up on charge: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering---final/combat---final#TOC-Charge
Simple positioning can get this, and any intelligent opponent tries to make it so they don't just get run up on. Or if the bad guys get initiative, they can close so they don't get charged themselves.
Attack the summoner - he and the creature have a big glowing matching icon on them, heck as far as the bad guys know it's an illusion or other thing that'll go away once the "wizard dies."
The fire damage is nice at this level but as you go up more and more things will resist it.
Target Will saves and INT damage. In Rise of the Runelords I used INT damage as a quick giant killer.
Suggest (as the spell) to the summoner that he dismiss his eidolon :-)
Move the summoner more than 100' from the eidolon to cut its hp down by 50%. Heck, if the thing likes to charge, it's probably getting pretty far from the summoner routinely - even traps or combat maneuvers can help widen the gap there (and of course magic).
I'm GMing a druid who has an insanely killer snake; it hits, grapples, and constricts and no one can get out of its coils. Life in the big city.
I'm currently running a game and my players are becoming pretty frustrated towards the summoner's eidolon which is overshadowing the rest of the party in every single combat encounter. The party, which is 5th level, consists of a fighter, a rogue, a druid, a sorcerer and a summoner. The eidolon is a quadruped (some sort of hell-hound) with a bite attack, 2 claws (improved), a gore attack, energy attacks, power attack and most importantly, pounce. Whenever he makes a charge with power attack, his attack routine looks like this:
Bite +7 1d6+7 +1d6 fire damage
2 claws +7 1d6+7 +1d6 fire damage
Gore +7 1d6+7 +1d6 fire damageAnd this is unbuffed. He's got bull's strength to make these numbers even higher and after reading through the share spells class ability, he can apparently cast enlarge person on it as well. This might not be so bad if it was easy to kill, but with mage armor cast it has a high AC, and every single time it's close to dying the summoner can just take damage for it, acting as a HP battery in the back.
It's very hard to create challenging encounters for eidolon without overpowering the rest of the party. I know making terrain to block charges and such is an option but I don't want every single fight to be in that kind of environment. This is a very big problem in my group and frankly I don't really know what to do except outright banning the summoner class.
What can I do?
As a DM devise situations where it won't always be possible for charging. Or make sure the enemies see the eidelon as the biggest threat. One web spell or some rough terrain etc. can help negate the beastie. It's all about setting up the encounters to be more than just a room with bad guys on one side and good guys on the other.
Heck put the bad guys on a 10-15 foot ledge and it's a whole new ball game with the eidelon.
It could be that the player of the summoner rolled really well when the HP were being rolled for the eidolon.
In my game, the summoner's eidolon has 37 HP at 3rd level (Serpentine Form).
Also your in the 30s HP seems high. An average quadrapend eidolon should have 26hp = (4*avg d10+4*Con Mod).
Why does 30s seem high if average is coming out to 26?
Why does 30s seem high if average is coming out to 26?
Also your in the 30s HP seems high. An average quadrapend eidolon should have 26hp = (4*avg d10+4*Con Mod).
Because animal companions and the Eidolon are assumed to be NPCs and have average HP for all levels and not roll. They also do not recieve full HP at 1st level.
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Also something to keep in mind about the eidolon is that it doesnt heal naturally, someone has to heal it. if the summoners using his spells on buffs for it he cant heal it. a simple way to stop a rampaging, charging eidolon is the spell in the APG called create pit. have a castor ( that has faced eidolons in the past, wink, wink) ready an action to caste create pit in front of it when it charges. at 10' depth per level( or something like that) starting as a second level spell it can stop it cold. there are also other more damaging variations of the pit spell as well.
just my 2cp. luck.
Because animal companions and the Eidolon are assumed to be NPCs and have average HP for all levels and not roll. They also do not recieve full HP at 1st level.
Can you point out where you found this information, please? I've started looking, but if you can quote a selection it would save me the time.
If the E is hitting 21 AC with mage armor, then it's AC is almost all from armor and natural armor. That means it doesn't have a very good touch AC.
If it has a weak will save, then I believe dismissal still works, so a 7th level cleric can get rid of the thing is one spell.
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One thing I've noticed in this thread is that people seem to be concentrating on nerfing the Eidolon as the solution, or else coming up with scenarios where it's less than effective or being specifically targetted by the enemy.
This isn't your only solution. If you find that the summoner is outpacing the rest of the party, instead of nerfing the eidolon, why not simply buff up the rest of the party? A few well-chosen magic items seeded into the treasure, maybe some extra cash, and you can close the gap with the rest of the party.
Sure, this might mean your fighter has equipment more suited to a higher level, but it's a simple thing to bump up the CR of encounters (more powerful monsters, more enemies, etc), and meanwhile everyone feels more heroic. The game is a power fantasy, after all.
If you do start tailoring your adventures specifically against the Summoner, don't be surprised if the player thinks you're picking on him. After all, you are.
Small threadjack here. My apologies.
In response to Caineach's comment earlier about averaging hps, I agree that NPCs hps are to be averaged. However, arguing whether the animal companion is an NPC is nebulous but it's cut and dry that the eidolon is not an NPC.
Definition of NPC: "These are characters controlled by the GM."
The GM never gains any sort of control over the eidolon unless he/she utilizes charm/suggestion effects. The eidolon is supremely under the control of the summoner.
Thus, since the eidolon is not an NPC, all of its hp are to be rolled upon gaining a new hit die.
"To determine a creature's hit points, roll the dice indicated by its Hit Dice. A creature gains maximum hit points if its first Hit Die roll is for a character class level. Creatures whose first Hit Die comes from an NPC class or from his race roll their first Hit Die normally."
Caineach is correct in stating that the eidolon wouldn't gain max hp at first hit die, though.
/threadjack
Have to agree with KoS, the eidelon doesn't get max hp at 1st level (that's only for class levels, not racial hitdice, and an eidelon gains racial hit dice), same as a Bugbear PC would not gain max HP for his first racial hit dice.
As to the problem with the edielon, I think everyone hit it the nails on the heads. Another thing you can do is throw a summoner into the NPC side, letting his eidelon wale on the PC eidelon (I did this to a very good effect, a ice roc with a rider and a lance vs an acidic dragon with a rider and lance, it was very effective).
Another thing to think about is the new base classes. An inquisitor is a nice PC to take out an eidelon, but probably even better is an alchemist with rapid shot and multi-shot. Tossing multiple AoE bombs on the eidelon per turn and splashing any PC that happens to be close. This is similar to the archer mentioned above, but also adds in some 'colateral' damage.
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One thing I've noticed in this thread is that people seem to be concentrating on nerfing the Eidolon as the solution, or else coming up with scenarios where it's less than effective or being specifically targetted by the enemy.
This isn't your only solution. If you find that the summoner is outpacing the rest of the party, instead of nerfing the eidolon, why not simply buff up the rest of the party? A few well-chosen magic items seeded into the treasure, maybe some extra cash, and you can close the gap with the rest of the party.
Sure, this might mean your fighter has equipment more suited to a higher level, but it's a simple thing to bump up the CR of encounters (more powerful monsters, more enemies, etc), and meanwhile everyone feels more heroic. The game is a power fantasy, after all.
If you do start tailoring your adventures specifically against the Summoner, don't be surprised if the player thinks you're picking on him. After all, you are.
Setting up situations where other players can shine isn't targeting the summoner. Our summoner tends to shine during the lesser encounters with low CR/ low AC enemies and sort of fades to the background against tougher targets. As long as I keep a mix of encounters where the various players feel effective I'm doing my job.
While I'm not a big advocate of bumping up the power level of the whole group I would have to ask whether the group has normal wealth by level and if it's appropriately spent.
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Umm...so the rest of the party is pretty poorly made then? Because if that measely 30 hp, 21 ac +7 to attack when charging critter is outshining them, yeah they are pretty damn poorly made. Badly made character make well made chaarcter seem overpowered. Not an issue of the summoner, but the players.
I am beginning to think people are really underestimating what 2d6+7 damage three times a round every round really adds up to compared to an equivalent level fighter, rogue or spellcaster.
Assuming the following :
Fighter has 16 Str (+3)
+1 weapon
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Sword & Board type for simplicity. Go for Long sword.
1d8+6
BAB : 10
Assume AC 23 opponent (reasonable at 5th level) :
Fighter : Hits 40% of the time. 10.5 * 0.40 = 4.1 or 4 dpr.
Eidelon : Hits 15% of the time (without the charge).
14 * 0.15 = 1.75 * 4 = 7
Yep, obviously super overpowered compared to the fighter (note I didn't super optimize the fighter or do TWF or anything else).
Have a seat with the Summoner player and explain to him that the rest of the group isn't designed solely around damage and that you would like for him to tone back his Eidolon. Allow him a "free" rearrange of his evolution points for that purpose.
No matter what classes you have- they need to be balanced towards each other in respect to their builds and power levels. Power gaming isn't bad, but being the lone power gamer in a group can be a bad thing.
Sit down, talk with the person one on one in a friendly manner, explain the issue and ask him to solve it. Its the same thing you'd do if a PC wound up with an item that was too powerful or if you allowed a spell or other ability that ended up being too powerful. There are tons of ways to build an effective Big E. Just have him build a slightly less effective Big E.
-S
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An important bit of information that people seem to miss is how PC's Ability Scores are generated. Remember: The Eidolon, like an Animal Companion, gets Ability Scores in a set, static amount.
We play a 25-point buy game, with Ability Increases at every even level... my Eidolon is traaaaaailing behind in power.
Imagine a 15-point buy game... that Eidolon could very well slaughter other PCs.
Think about it. What Ability Score generation are you using?
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I am beginning to think people are really underestimating what 2d6+7 damage three times a round every round really adds up to compared to an equivalent level fighter, rogue or spellcaster.Assuming the following :
Fighter has 16 Str (+3)
+1 weapon
Weapon Focus
Weapon SpecializationSword & Board type for simplicity. Go for Long sword.
1d8+6
BAB : 10
Assume AC 23 opponent (reasonable at 5th level) :
Fighter : Hits 40% of the time. 10.5 * 0.40 = 4.1 or 4 dpr.
Eidelon : Hits 15% of the time (without the charge).
14 * 0.15 = 1.75 * 4 = 7Yep, obviously super overpowered compared to the fighter (note I didn't super optimize the fighter or do TWF or anything else).
I'm not sure what you are playing but a more typical AC for a 5th level Paizo Module is AC 17-20, with AC 21-25 reserved for the toughest encounters. The Game Mastery chapter suggests a CR5 creature should have AC 18.
Assume AC 18 opponent :
Fighter : Hits 65% of the time. 10.5 * 0.65 = 6.825
Eidelon : Hits 40% of the time (without the charge).
14 * 0.40 = 5.6 * 4 = 22.4
With power attacking fighter it's better but not much. I think a lot of this speaks to the fact that a generic sword & board fighter is pretty weak, you have to work a bit to get a fighter up to snuff and a lot of players don't know how to do it.
I'm not sure what you are playing but a more typical AC for a 5th level Paizo Module is AC 17-20, with AC 21-25 reserved for the toughest encounters. The Game Mastery chapter suggests a CR5 creature should have AC 18.Assume AC 18 opponent :
Fighter : Hits 65% of the time. 10.5 * 0.65 = 6.825
Eidelon : Hits 40% of the time (without the charge).
14 * 0.40 = 5.6 * 4 = 22.4With power attacking fighter it's better but not much. I think a lot of this speaks to the fact that a generic sword & board fighter is pretty weak, you have to work a bit to get a fighter up to snuff and a lot of players don't know how to do it.
I don't play modules, I run my own game.
A 1st character can have :
14 Dex (+2)
Chainmail (+6)
Heavy Shield (+2)
10 + 10 = 20
A 5th level character can have :
14 Dex (+2)
+1 Full Plate (+10)
+1 Heavy Sheild (+3)
10 + 15 = 25
A 23 is not unreasonable at 5th level for an enemy (take away the +1's for magical equip and you have a 5th level enemy with 23 AC (Assuming MW), or 22 without).
A dex build with some light armor might have less, or more, depending on feats (18 dex (+4), MW Chain Shirt (+4), Dodge (+1), Heavy Shield (+2) = 21).
Personally I'd consider a 19-20 on a melee target at 5th level to be slightly underpowered. A 17 would be a non-melee type, and yes, a melee type is going to eat his lunch. The same holds true for a flurrying monk against a wizard with mage armor, he's going to flurry and rip the wizard apart (no diff than the eidelon). Basically, if you put the multi-attack low to-hit character up against a low AC, he does really well, if you put him up against a higher ac, he does worse than the fighter.
Picking your fights is just part of tactics. Personally, I'd send a monk in to make mince meat of the eidelon if I wanted to take him down, a 5th level monk is going to be hard for the eidelon to hit and he's going to make mince meat of him with his AC.
Seems like the summoner is the only one concentrating on damage. Whose fault is that? If the fighter does not build to damage that's fine, but he shouldn't be upset when someone out does him. The rogue should have no issue out damaging E. Seems like a damage based E is the best thing this party can have, making them a well balanced and complete group. I would not punish a player for playing his class well when others choose a less optimal path. If E is the main damage threat then attack it, a summoner is only a HP battery when its enough damage to send E back to its home plane, meaning massive overkill will drop a summoner or force him to loose E. Sleep spells, charms, use weak will save against him.