I am thinking about making a dwarf monk of the empty hand in PFS, and I'm trying to think up some improvised weapons for him. He's an escaped slave whose mind became focused wile in slavery and learned to swing whatever he had at the moment in his multiple escape attempts before he make it out. My first idea was 2 pairs of manacles strapped to 10ft of chain, and there's really no weapon that I can find that's like that. it weighs the same as a longsword (6lb) but I could see how that could be hard to use so I'm not sure if its one handed or 2-handed. I was thinking it could be;
A. 1d8 or 2d4 damage, 10' reach, 2 handed, x2, 6lb, trip, special, see text
or
B. 1d6 damage, 10' reach, 1 handed, x2, 6lb, trip, special, see text
special: you can move your hand(s) up or down the chain(a move action) to
attack adjacent enemies or attack enemies at 10' away.
I was thinking the different damage dice for both balance and you couldn't get it swinging as fast in one hand, and the trip was common sense. It's seems a lot like a handicapped 3.5 spiked chain(move action to attack adjacent and no disarm). I have some other ideas for improv weapons but this one seemed like it could use some discussion.
comments and other ideas for improvised weapons are welcome
Typically this is not allowed for improvised weapons. Improvised weapons deal damage according to their handedness, have no extended threat range or special properties. That's essentially the definition of them being "improvised" as opposed to actual designed weapons.
To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Basically all improvised weapons are just generic objects used to bash and stab things. I think a custom weapon with extra abilities would be a weapon, not an improvised weapon.
Hmmm. Wile it never says that they don't have special qualities, I can see your point about it being alittle powerful for an improv. How about just a chain? It wouldn't do as much damage but it seems like you could still trip and disarm with it and attack adjacent and at reach but it would do like 1d4 damge and be 2 handed. I think improvised weapons, in the game, are just worse vertions of normal weapons. You can still do speical attacks but the damage and crit range and multiplyer are going to be quite abit less
The rules for improvised weapons specifically call out that they only score a crit on 20 and have x2 multiplier. So I am inclined to disagree about giving them special qualities. It just doesnt fit in my opinion.
The rules for improvised weapons specifically call out that they only score a crit on 20 and have x2 multiplier. So I am inclined to disagree about giving them special qualities. It just doesnt fit in my opinion.
What does crit range have to do with special qualities? Lots of weapons are 20/x2. The spiked chain is and can disarm and trip and used to have reach. That I can't trip with a 10 ft leingh of chain doesn't make any sense to me. The fact that it would be 1d4 20/x2 makes it balanced in my opinion.
That I can't trip with a 10 ft leingh of chain doesn't make any sense to me. The fact that it would be 1d4 20/x2 makes it balanced in my opinion.
Balanced for a weapon, yes. This by definition something that is not a weapon.
Again, the only variety allowed in improvised weapons is how much damage they do based on their size. Improvised weapons are not supposed to be a smorgasbord of abilities the way real weapons are; that's why they're NOT weapons.As for varying reach, there are no actual weapons that allow you to do that without special class abilities. So you're actually wanting to make a non-weapon with a combat benefit that actual weapons don't have.
If your GM will let you do it, that's fine, but it's really not how improvised weapons are supposed to work.
That I can't trip with a 10 ft leingh of chain doesn't make any sense to me. The fact that it would be 1d4 20/x2 makes it balanced in my opinion.Balanced for a weapon, yes. This by definition something that is not a weapon.
Again, the only variety allowed in improvised weapons is how much damage they do based on their size. Improvised weapons are not supposed to be a smorgasbord of abilities the way real weapons are; that's why they're NOT weapons.
As for varying reach, there are no actual weapons that allow you to do that without special class abilities. So you're actually wanting to make a non-weapon with a combat benefit that actual weapons don't have.
If your GM will let you do it, that's fine, but it's really not how improvised weapons are supposed to work.
the meteor hammer from the adventurers armory has reach, trip, a +1 shield bonus and does a d10 at 19-20/x2 among other abilities and you think tripping with a chain is broken?
on second thought wouldn't it do comparable damage to the meteor hammer? manacles are usually connected to a length of chain, so that would be the only "comparable" weapon I can find. Now I wouldn't give it the ac bonus, the pulling ability, or the double weapon mode, but it wouldn't make any sense that it couldn't make trip attacks and have reach.
the meteor hammer from the adventurers armory has reach, trip, a +1 shield bonus and does a d10 at 19-20/x2 among other abilities and you think tripping with a chain is broken?
I think the meteor hammer is a weapon.
I think that if you wanted to talk about the chain being a weapon, it wouldn't be overpowered.I think when you start giving special weapon abilities to things that are not weapons, you're going outside of the rules.
the meteor hammer from the adventurers armory has reach, trip, a +1 shield bonus and does a d10 at 19-20/x2 among other abilities and you think tripping with a chain is broken?I think the meteor hammer is a weapon.
I think that if you wanted to talk about the chain being a weapon, it wouldn't be overpowered.
I think when you start giving special weapon abilities to things that are not weapons, you're going outside of the rules.
That's just it, it IS a weapon because I'm using it as one and I'm trained to. No it wasn't made for it, but neither was a scythe or a sickle and they're on the weapons table(good for them). heck they're not described in that section, and you can trip with a sickle. I'm not saying it will be as good as say a spiked chain or a flail, obviously not, but unless you can give me a good reason why i can't wrap a weighted chain around your leg and pull, other than you don't like it, then i see on reason against it.
Well, you can do whatever your gm will let you get away with. Nothing anywhere says that the improvised weapons get any special qualities at all, and the rules do include stats for improvised weapons. I submit that by designing and building a weapon with special qualities, even if it is made out of bits and pieces, it is a custom exotic weapon. Improvised weapons are just that, improvised -- not designed. If your gm lets you flurry with this thing you are designing, it'll "break" the class a little. On the other hand, the class is weak so that might not be so bad.
yea I do see now that the original weapon idea was (really) over powered and I do see your point about building weapons, and yes there's nothing saying improv. weapons can have special qualities, but there's also nothing saying they can't. I dont see any thing wrong in giving a 10'chain trip when (I would say after thinking about it) would be 2 handed and do 1d4/x2 even if it did have reach.
Are the stats for improvised weapons your talking about the ones on the miner's pick(2 handed deal damage like a heavy pick), the shovel (club), and others in the equipment section?
I am thinking about making a dwarf monk of the empty hand in PFS, and I'm trying to think up some improvised weapons for him.
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I was thinking the different damage dice for both balance and you couldn't get it swinging as fast in one hand, and the trip was common sense.
Note that the Monk of the Empty Hand has special rules relating to improvised weapons -- they do damage as either a light hammer, a club, or a quarterstaff.
Note that the Monk of the Empty Hand has special rules relating to improvised weapons -- they do damage as either a light hammer, a club, or a quarterstaff.I am thinking about making a dwarf monk of the empty hand in PFS, and I'm trying to think up some improvised weapons for him.
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I was thinking the different damage dice for both balance and you couldn't get it swinging as fast in one hand, and the trip was common sense.
nope, they treat all normal weapons as improv. weapons and those are what they treat them as.
nope, they treat all normal weapons as improv. weapons and those are what they treat them as.Note that the Monk of the Empty Hand has special rules relating to improvised weapons -- they do damage as either a light hammer, a club, or a quarterstaff.I am thinking about making a dwarf monk of the empty hand in PFS, and I'm trying to think up some improvised weapons for him.
[..]
I was thinking the different damage dice for both balance and you couldn't get it swinging as fast in one hand, and the trip was common sense.
Ah, my mistake. A normal improvised weapon is a normal improvised weapon.
I think you have confused yourself into thinking that you have specifically trained with one particular improvised weapon. The feat allows you to pick up anything that is not a weapon (a chair, a sharpened ostrich quill, a frozen halibut) and use it as such. Because the list of improvised weapons is endless all improvised weapons use a simple formula whan working out damage and what special abilities they have. This is part of the reason that the monk of the empty hand is given versatile improvization and ki weapons as abilities. The spiked chain can trip because of the barbs along its length. They catch hold of prey and wrench them off their feet. You could technically do this with a length of chain (in a slightly different way) but you wouldn't be using the Catch Off-Guard feat for it but Exotic Weapon Proficiency (chain) instead.
With regards to normal weapons being used as improvised weapons it's a case of one feat and therefore one way of using the weapons being in opposition to the normal way of using the weapon. For instance, a monk of the empty hand can use any exotic weapon as an improvised weapon but in so doing loses any of the benefits of using the weapon normally (tripping, disarming, etc).
I see the monk of the empty hand as grabbing anything within reach and using it as a weapon before dropping said item when it has become broken (sort of like that guy in the Dead Rising video game).
Can you trip with a spiked chain if you don't have proficiency? with a -4 yes you can. But I'm think I'm done with the whole thing. Seems like a lot of work for a mediocre monk that would do better just hitting things with his fists, and it seems I'm out numbered here. Thanks for the posts even if I don't agree with them.
Can you trip with a spiked chain if you don't have proficiency? with a -4 yes you can. But I'm think I'm done with the whole thing. Seems like a lot of work for a mediocre monk that would do better just hitting things with his fists, and it seems I'm out numbered here. Thanks for the posts even if I don't agree with them.
Of course you can. And I would say that you can trip with a chain as well. The monk of the empty hand would just take a -4 penalty for doing so unless he had Exotic Weapon Proficiency (chain). To use the chain as a trip weapon he would need to treat it as a weapon not an improvised weapon and thus would need different feats for doing so without the penalty.
And as for the monk of the empty hand being mediocre once the monk has the ki weapons ability he can use his unarmed strike damage for all improvised weapons (at 5th). And lets not forget that he can deal slashing and piercing damage as well (at 3rd). Combine this with the ability to throw virtually anything you can lift as a weapon and you have quite an effective monk.