How exactly does he have a 2400' range
And never mind that. Stop letting him scry on targets. He also has a +240 Perception modifier to spot anything at that distance.
I dont understand, 265 stealth? That isnt epic that is godly, its above godly...i dont understand how this can be possible. And are you the gm or are you the player controlling the rogue?
I dont understand, 265 stealth? That isnt epic that is godly, its above godly...i dont understand how this can be possible. And are you the gm or are you the player controlling the rogue?
That's actually a really bad score at 2400'. He has a natural +240 to it just from being at 2400'. That means he made a Stealth check of 15. At level 12.
I dont understand, 265 stealth? That isnt epic that is godly, its above godly...i dont understand how this can be possible. And are you the gm or are you the player controlling the rogue?That's actually a really bad score at 2400'. He has a natural +240 to it just from being at 2400'. That means he made a Stealth check of 15. At level 12.
Ah ok so he means after the distance modifiers, got it.
Range penalties for perception are awesome. Keep in mind he is suffering a -5 to hit at that range with Far Shot. I would give him an awesome scope to reduce the penalties for spotting things at range. Makes him a realistic sniper in modern times.
I made a sniper-spec rogue with a distance heavy crossbow. The problem is that at max range 2400ft his stealth roll is ridiculous. 265 at level 12. How do I resolve this problem?
Well, you are never gonna have a half-mile line-of-sight in a dungeon (or few other places for that matter). He still needs be able to see and ID his target. Perception penalties due to range work both ways.
If I was him, I would stick to the normal range of 240', screw a spyglass on top of the crossbow and take the -12 Perception checks to see my target and then shoot them with no penalty.
240' / 480' / 960'+ (w/ Distance)
I've seen this particular problem questioned before and it became an argument over realism & line-of-sight. In other words, just how far away someone/something can be before you just can't see them?
Realism aside, the only defense against this in D&D/Pathfinder is blocking said line-of-sight using buildings, trees or other objects... cover & concealment. Eventually he is going to get a shot off though and if he didn't what would be the point of playing the character?
Things you could try... Indoor encounters, Enemy snipers, Invisible creatures, Wall spells (Wind & Force), Mirror Image(spell).
remember he can only do precision damage (sneak attack etc.) from 30ft away
Try encounters within "dungeons." Perhaps these encounter might also include dragons...
Also, night time encounters. No way to see that far in utter darkness.
Also also, take into account what the posters above me said; it's solid.
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I'm not sure there's much of a problem.
You are almost never gonna be that far away from your enemy.
And even you get, say, 1,000 feet away and get your surprise-round shot off, the monster is gonna hide behind a bush or rock or something, because, you know, if a sniper is after your ass you use your action to take cover.
As has already been explained, even on a clear day with no cover or adverse weather in full daylight, you can only perceive medium creatures at a distance of 10*(Perception check) feet away.
When dealing with long-range weapons like bows and crossbows, it's your Perception score that's going to be the limiting factor rather than the range increment.
So, until this character can overcome the same +240 to the Perception DCs that his opponents have, I'd say your problem isn't as bad as you think.
The best your sniper can hope to do is get the talent or feature that lets you snipe at just -10 Stealth, max out his Stealth and Perception skills, and attack in that range where his Perception check succeeds but his enemies' checks still fail. As already pointed out, he's not going to get sneak attack at this range, either -- so a smattering of rogue for stealth skills added to an archer-variant fighter is probably your best bet.
I'm not sure there's much of a problem.
You are almost never gonna be that far away from your enemy.
And even you get, say, 1,000 feet away and get your surprise-round shot off, the monster is gonna hide behind a bush or rock or something, because, you know, if a sniper is after your ass you use your action to take cover.
Exactly right. Our party ambushed a troll on the plains from long range once. As dumb as he was, he was still smart enough to go prone and hide in the tall grass. We ended up leaving him there fr the time being because we didn't want to play cat and mouse games and waste all our arrows and bolts trying to hit something we couldn't see.
As has already been explained, even on a clear day with no cover or adverse weather in full daylight, you can only perceive medium creatures at a distance of 10*(Perception check) feet away.
When dealing with long-range weapons like bows and crossbows, it's your Perception score that's going to be the limiting factor rather than the range increment.
So, until this character can overcome the same +240 to the Perception DCs that his opponents have, I'd say your problem isn't as bad as you think.
The best your sniper can hope to do is get the talent or feature that lets you snipe at just -10 Stealth, max out his Stealth and Perception skills, and attack in that range where his Perception check succeeds but his enemies' checks still fail. As already pointed out, he's not going to get sneak attack at this range, either -- so a smattering of rogue for stealth skills added to an archer-variant fighter is probably your best bet.
Why have the long weapon ranges at all then? Why have the encounter starting distances at such a long range? Being so "gamist" about the Perception penalties really destroys the game's verisimilitude.
I'm fairly certain that the Perception penalty only applies when in combat or similar situations. If I look out at a valley, I should be able to see a whole heck of a lot farther than a hundred or so feet. Too many things begin to fall apart if you rule any other way.
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With the long weapon ranges the targets you are likely shooting at are bigger than normal (ie armies, dragons, castles, etc). Plus the larger it is or the more of them there are the easier they are to see.
Also if you are involved in a seige either as the attacker or defender, have long range is very useful. Especially to keep you out of range of nasty spells... :)
Since a number of people are complaining that range penalties on perception are bunk, I will propose my alternate rules. Perception checks get a -1/(10ft*size category of object)
thus: Fine object(gem) -1/10 ft (100 ft for DC10)
Tiny(apple): -1/30 ft (300 ft for DC10)
medium (weapons): -1/50 ft (500 ft for DC10)
large (people): -1/60 ft (600 ft for DC10)
Collosal (house): -1/90 ft (900 ft for DC10)
This allows people to see someone untrained at 200 yards before needing to roll, instead of 100 feet. But in order to see detail of the person, you need to get closer or roll, since facial features would be a smaller object. A house could be seen 2 blocks away relatively easily, with clear LOS, but you couldn't tell the color of the door until you got closer. In this case, 2400 ft would be a +40 to spot a person. Difficult, but not unable to be overcome.
Why have the long weapon ranges at all then? Why have the encounter starting distances at such a long range?
I don't. In overland encounters, I typically have my players and the monsters roll Perception, and the encounter starts with the characters at a distance of about 10 feet times the best check.
(This is, of course, only my rule of thumb -- individual situations vary.)Being so "gamist" about the Perception penalties really destroys the game's verisimilitude.
It's always constructive to hear that one is "doing it wrong". </sarcasm>
I think Perception is taking to account the fact that we're not all sitting around carefully scanning every speck on the horizon but are instead marching along, trying to make good time, and generally aware of our environment. But if one of my players felt that it should be possible to spot a medium-sized monster from farther off, I'd be willing to talk about an alternate rule. But at my table, this is deemed a good method for setting the trigger point at long-distance encounters.
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240' / 480' / 960'+ (w/ Distance)
I've seen this particular problem questioned before and it became an argument over realism & line-of-sight. In other words, just how far away someone/something can be before you just can't see them?
Realism aside, the only defense against this in D&D/Pathfinder is blocking said line-of-sight using buildings, trees or other objects... cover & concealment. Eventually he is going to get a shot off though and if he didn't what would be the point of playing the character?
Things you could try... Indoor encounters, Enemy snipers, Invisible creatures, Wall spells (Wind & Force), Mirror Image(spell).
It depends on ones eyesight but 700 is the lowest, it is very common for people able to shot with out a scope out to 800 to 1000. Keep in mind that's in meters not feet. So even taking the conservative number you are you are talking about 2300 feet. So what the rogue is doing is very doable in the modern age. Of course those are ranges with high powered rifles not a crossbow.
To me the problem with the OP is the low - to hit from the rules. As someone that served in the military. The max range on the rifle qualification course is 350 meters which is about half the difference and it starts getting hard to constantly hit the target at that range.
But this is one of those things where realism and the game don't mesh. So my suggest to the OP is either just accept it or add a house rule about ranges, which is what our group did.
I made a sniper-spec rogue with a distance heavy crossbow. The problem is that at max range 2400ft his stealth roll is ridiculous. 265 at level 12. How do I resolve this problem?
Be sure to closely examine the Perception modifiers (as has been pointed out). It is GM discretion on how to resolve the "favorable light" conditions that occur in daylight - as well as the "darkness penalties". As written "favorable" adds +2 to Perception checks, while unfavorable adds 2 or 5 to the DC for Perception. The PF Beta rules had better ones regarding specific distance - example: -1 per 100 feet for vision-based checks in daylight or equivalent.
At 2,400 feet however, that is still a -24 to the rogue's Perception check. At 12th level, assuming Skill Focus (+6), Alertness (+4) and a +5 competence bonus from Eyes of the Eagle added to 12 ranks and class/trained skill bonus (+3) - presuming a 10 or 11 Wisdom - that rogue has an adjusted Perception bonus of +6. <12 +3 +0 Wis +10 feats +5 item = total bonus of 30 -24 for range>
It's all well and good to be fair to the players by statting this kind of thing out, but the distance measurements in Pathfinder RPG are all calibrated for play on a 1"=5' battlemat on someone's kitchen table. The math really breaks down (or if you disagree with that, shall we say the rules are unclear) when it comes to situations like the one you're mentioning.
The best thing is to use your judgment, then. Frankly, I would pull some numbers out of my butt and do the thing that was most fun/challenging without being annoying.
I've had the misfortune of playing under GMs who decided to "prove" the sniper concept with the PCs as guinea pigs. You'd have to be a real artisan GM to make this anything better than a frustrating mess. Sniping works. Unless one of the PCs is also a sniper, it's going to look like the scene from Full Metal Jacket.
Hmm...
In that case, consider giving them some NPCs to order to their deaths in an attempt to flush out the sniper. Some players dislike NPC flunkies but I can see that working... maybe. Just remember, your goal is not to assassinate the players, but to create an interesting challenge for them.
Think of it in these terms: sniping is such an effective tactic that it may warrant a CR increase for players who are unprepared to face such threats. It's not unlike Flight or DR in that regard. Use it accordingly!
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I made a sniper-spec rogue with a distance heavy crossbow. The problem is that at max range 2400ft his stealth roll is ridiculous. 265 at level 12. How do I resolve this problem?
Just because you made it, doesn't mean you have to play it.
In any case, if I was GM and a player had gone to great lengths to make this character I would let him use it every so often (take a goblin lookout off a treetop, Snipe a spy off the battlements, knock the flying spy that patrols the Mountains of McGuffin out of the sky).
The player would get to have those: "Woah, awesome!" moments around the table and it would allow the PCs a small advantage when they first started exploring the encounters I had designed for them.
...Just remember, your goal is not to assassinate the players, but to create an interesting challenge for them....
Speak for yourself. I have had at least 2 GMs use sniper assassins in games. 1 was successful. The other scored a crit but did not manage to kill. Its the price you pay for pissing off powerful people in the underworld.