A burning question about "Burning Hands"

[ronaldsf]

Please pardon what might be a noob question (I'm a new GM)...

I had a titanic battle of wills tonight with a player who insisted that his 1st-level "Burning Hands" spell set the fur of a wolf on fire in addition to causing HP damage. Here are two seemingly contradictory quotes taken from the Core Rulebook:

Quote:

CORE RULEBOOK, P. 251:
Under BURNING HANDS (an instantaneous spell)
"Flammable materials burn if the flames touch them. A character can extinguish burning items as a full-round action."

CORE RULEBOOK, P. 444 (under "Catching on Fire")
"Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and non-instantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash."

I said that if the spell set creatures on fire, it would say so in the spell description. Also, the 2nd quote says that "instantaneous spells" don't set characters on fire.

But he countered that instantaneous spells don't "normally" set characters on fire, and that the fur of a wolf is a "flammable material."

I moved on because it wasn't important at the time, but I know this is going to come up again, when it matters. Anyone have any thoughts on this war of wills that we just had? Thanks in advance! :)

[Carbon D. Metric]

Hair does not burn nearly as well as you think it does. Esp dirty hair or fur with oils from the skin, dirt, dust, and all manner of other things.

Yes the spell would singe the hair/fur but it would by no means "set it on fire." Flammable materials they refer to would be more along the lines of paper, loose clothing and combustible materials like gunpowder and alchemist fire.

[BigNorseWolf]

When it says flammable materials it probably means things like dry hay, dry leaves, puddles of oil, torch heads,grease spells, tinder and campfires. Wolf fur and human hair aren't particularly flammable unless you're the king of pop.

[Carbon D. Metric]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

When it says flammable materials it probably means things like dry hay, dry leaves, puddles of oil, torch heads,grease spells, tinder and campfires. Wolf fur and human hair aren't particularly flammable unless you're the king of pop.

I KNEW someone was going to make reference to this incident!

To be fair, that was caused by about 10 ounces of hair spray and relaxer, both incredibly inflammable.

[skrahen]

Pathfinder companion adventurers armoury page 26 lists some special rules for using alchemical material components and foci.
[in reference to alchemical fire as a material component]
"...Burning Hands (M): One target that fails its Reflex
saving throw (your choice) catches on fire as if it has been
struck by alchemist’s fire."
i deduce that unless there are special circumstances that it would not in fact set a creature on fire. otherwise why would you need to spend loot on a flask of alchemical fire to use as a material component.

[ronaldsf]

I'm leaning toward what people are saying. It does get into gray areas, though, where exactly does one draw the line between what's flammable and what's not?

In the end, I declared that it WAS a gray area and that I had GM discretion, and that for game balance purposes this Level 1 spell shouldn't be that powerful. For me, game balance is my primary concern. I guess this is one of those times when a GM just has to stick to his guns, rule, and move on -- no more argument!! :)

The Michael Jackson Incident was mentioned as an argument against me. I retorted that this case could be distinguished because the wolf was not wearing hair product. (I knew those 3 years of law school would help me eventually!)

[Ion Raven]

Well if you want a rule of thumb, (and I think it says it somewhere in the rulebook) the more specific rule overrides the general one.

[DigitalMage]

If you really get a player digging their heals in you can just say:

"Okay, but if I go with your ruling, each and every time your character is hit by a Burning Hands spell then your character too will catch fire as clothes are flamable, your characters' hair will catch fire (along with his eyebrows) and some items may become useless or less useful (the feather fletchings on arrows may be burnt off, armour may be damaged etc). This will only affect your character, no those of the other players unless they too want their burning hands spells to ignite wolves. So, do you really want to push this ruling?"

[Oliver McShade]

Burning Hands say it ignite flammable objects it touches. It then say's "A character can extinguish burning items as a full-round action".

This is the specific rule.

The more general one applies to all instant fire spells, that do not mention that items will catch on fire.

I would then apply this evenly and equally to all players, character, creatures, monsters, and NPC in the game who use this spell.

[Ceefood]

+1 instantaneous ones include spells like fireball - it explodes & then it is over whereas burning hands is a jet of flame
Treantmonks guide recommends burning hands for this reason

[Kaisoku]

So the answer to the question is yes and no.

Yes it sets flammable things on fire. No, hair isn't flammable.

Flammable in game terms means it will burn for rounds and rounds, thus requiring time to put out.
Hair burns up instantly and is gone, unless it has fuel burning instead (like hair products).

[Oliver McShade]

Kaisoku wrote:

So the answer to the question is yes and no.

Yes it sets flammable things on fire. No, hair isn't flammable.

Flammable in game terms means it will burn for rounds and rounds, thus requiring time to put out.
Hair burns up instantly and is gone, unless it has fuel burning instead (like hair products).

What is and is not flammable is up to your Game Master. Just have a talk with him ahead of time, and figure out if he thinks hair is or is not.

[MordredofFairy]

Oliver McShade wrote:

Kaisoku wrote:

So the answer to the question is yes and no.

Yes it sets flammable things on fire. No, hair isn't flammable.

Flammable in game terms means it will burn for rounds and rounds, thus requiring time to put out.
Hair burns up instantly and is gone, unless it has fuel burning instead (like hair products).

What is and is not flammable is up to your Game Master. Just have a talk with him ahead of time, and figure out if he thinks hair is or is not.

either way, thats the burn-special quality.

If you soak something in spirits before and then cast burning hands, sure.
If you cast it on something inherently flammable, sure.

But if it would work as your player intends, there'd by an indication in the spell about the damage/round caused(and how, if, it's affected by caster level and the DC to put it out being easier by rolling on the ground etc.

[Ion Raven]

Actually now that I think about it, hair doesn't actually catch fire very easily, rather it just shrivels up in a burnt state and leaves behind a nasty smell. :< In that same sense fresh wood isn't very flammable either. I think the best way to determine this is by imagining a fire pit. If you put that particular object in the flames would it catch fire instantly? Such things include: Paper, dry leaves, plume(feathers), gasoline.

It's really the GM call, but just because something can catch fire doesn't mean it's automatically flammable. Even flesh can catch fire given an intense enough heat for a long enough time.

[King of Vrock]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

When it says flammable materials it probably means things like dry hay, dry leaves, puddles of oil, torch heads,grease spells, tinder and campfires. Wolf fur and human hair aren't particularly flammable unless you're the king of pop.

The Grease Spell is not flammable. If it were it'd have a text similar to the Web spell stating the effects of putting fire to it. In 3.5 in fact there was a higher level spell that was a flaming grease spell.

As to Burning hands and hair, equipment, etc... even if you were wearing paper armor it'd only catch fire if you rolled a Nat 1 on your Reflex save. The setting things on fire bit is more for unattended objects in the Area effected.

--Lava Vrock

[Stubs McKenzie]

To address the hair-doesn't-really-catch-on-fire bit... it does, and it doesn't need product or other flammable items in it. I have seen both a dog on fire (its fur from running back into a burning building) and I myself have had my hair catch on fire (a turrible torch accident while working for a copper sculptor :P), it did not burn away instantly, and did actually ignite, burning for a good few seconds all on its own before I got it put out (long hair and open flame is not a good combo!). It didn't take long at all for my hair to catch on fire (2-3 secs over a "cool burning" flame), it just required a flame that didn't pop in and out of existence near instantaneously. The general rule is an instantaneous spell does not catch items on fire, but the specific description of Flaming Hands overrides that rule and therefore does catch items on fire.

+1 to Oliver McShade for

Oliver McShade wrote:

What is and is not flammable is up to your Game Master. Just have a talk with him ahead of time, and figure out if he thinks hair is or is not.

[Mr.Fishy]

Use the cream.
If the burning continues call a doctor.

If the player insists ask to hairspray flamethrower his head to see the flammable properties of hair. Does he have a dog?

The most spells effect a character and his equipment at the same time. You wouldn't roll a seperate save for a fighter's wooden shield or a wizard's spellbook, right? If so then any fire has the chance to ignite wooden weapons and scrolls...the madness!

Wait!!! Was the wolf using Aqua Net.

You should rule and walk. If the player wants to fight then he may be more interested in being right that playing. Ask for a vote, argue or play? It's heavy handed but the whole table is being held hostage and a good DM sometimes has to be hard to be fair to the group.

[Stubs McKenzie]

Light wooden shield 5 hardness 7 hit points
Heavy wooden shield 5 hardness 15 hit points
A piece of paper 0 hardness 2 hps/inch of thickness
A 2 handed hafted weapon 5 hardness 10 hit points

Elemental damage does half damage to items unless it is an item that is especially vulnerable to that type of damage (fire to paper for example).

at 1d4 a level, 5d4 maximum, the spell would do an average of 2 damage at first lvl, 12 damage at 5th (rounded down) on paper, hay, things of that nature, 1-6 damage on items that aren't particularly vulnerable, and i would suggest a wooden shield wouldn't be nearly as vulnerable to fire as paper, so that would take half damage. After the initial hit, they burn taking 1d6 fire damage until extinguished (average 3.5 damage, 3 rounded down), 1 damage if halved on average rounded down, and then that is applied to hardness first... a normal light wooden shield could not be destroyed by a max damage burning hands cast by a 5th lvl caster(20/2 damage, then hardness, then hps) and hardness would stop all damage from further fire damage, even if the fire still burned on it.

All of that damage also suggests the item fails its saving throw to avoid/halve damage at your characters saving throw modifier if its non magical (including a scroll you are holding).

Scrolls out in the open or unattended could/would be destroyed, but most scrolls are kept in a case, or other container, so the fire would have to burn through the container first. This isn't a powerful secondary ability, unless you choose to ignore the fire and let it slowly cook you to death.

[King of Vrock]

Sorry Stubbs your shield won't take any damage unless its sitting on the ground next to you unattended. Then it would react as you have described.

Any object in your possesion takes no damage from area effect spells unless you fail a reflex save with a Nat 1. Then you roll randomly against 4 items ranked according to a chart at the end of the Magic chapter under saving throws.

--School of Vrock

[Stubs McKenzie]

That's what i was suggesting with the line "All of that damage also suggests the item fails its saving throw to avoid/halve damage at your characters saving throw modifier if its nonmagical."

EDIT: to extra clarify, on saving throws for items

Core Rulebook wrote:

Saving Throws: Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus). Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level.

[YeahBaby]

I would like to jump into this discussion as I was also engaged in a battle of wills over the weekend at an Organized Play event about various spells and catching on fire. I agree with the player that believes burning hands puts targets with hair or clothes at risk of catching on fire. Even though it is an instantaneous duration, the spell states flammable materials burn if the flames touch them. Hair and clothes are identified as flammable in the catch on fire rule.

Lets talk about other spells and effects that are not instantaneous duration. Are creatures with clothes or hair that are damaged by these spells and effects at risk of catching on fire? I would love an official answer to this to take with me to Organized Play games.

1. Produce Flame
2. Flame Blade
3. Wall Of Fire
4. Flaming Sphere
5. Fire Shield
6. Fire Seeds
7. Fire Trap
8. Flame Arrow
9. Heat Metal
10. Incendiary Cloud
11. A magic weapon with the Flaming property

[Mojorat]

There is no need for one. Basically assume things won by creatures have a fire be gone coating unless they role a save of a 1.basically assume the bad guys carrying gasoline will die from tbe fireball before the gas they are holding lights on fire.

In all honesty there can be exemltions from this and my sillly example above is one a sane dm miggt rule on but if things are not un attended they probly wont catch fire.

[Serum]

Damaging Objects wrote:

Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack.

Burning Hands wrote:

Flammable materials burn if the flames touch them. A character can extinguish burning items as a full-round action.

The only question is whether Burning Hands includes attended objects as a flammable material.

I'd say no.