Orc CR


Rules Questions


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After being run through a big, nasty encounter with orcs last night, I have a question about orc CR.

1/3? That's too low. Every other CR less than 1 critter, a good hit from a fighter can take them down. Orc ferocity means that a baseline orc has 18 hit points, which is out of reach for a single hit.

Now, our GM was using slightly better orcs -- Con 16 (so _24_ hp to take them down, or about three solid hits, and AC 15 instead 13). We're a 3rd-4th level party, and this was a tough encounter.

Compare baseline orcs to hobgoblins (CR 1/2): Orcs hit more often, crit more often, do more damage, and take more damage. Hobbos do have a significant advantage in AC, but I'm still betting on the orc. I don't see how baseline orcs aren't CR 1/2 at least.

Does this make sense to folks?


The Orcs should have been CR 1/2. I'd figure that would be due to the stat boosts. Not as big a stat boost as the Advanced Template though which +4 to all stats which adds 1 to the CR but big enough to warrant fractional increase in the CR from 1/3 to 1/2. It's judgment call though. If the players are more than capable of taking on these minor advanced Orcs then I'd leave it but if it's really a challenge I'd increase the XP award by increasing the CR.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Orcs are, indeed, better at dealing damage than hobgoblins. (Though I'll note that their Light Sensitivity is ignored far too frequently, and is just as significant a penalty as Weapon Focus is a bonus.) However, orcs are unsubtle and easily duped. They can be snuck around, split up, led into traps, etc., whereas a group of hobgoblins is likely to behave more like a trained military regiment, and they've got a good chance of ambushing the party, giving them some extra attacks. (Not to mention that hobgoblins could easily have a cleric for backup. Orcs... not so much.) Finally, Ferocity isn't 12 extra hit points. They're staggered the whole time, and bleeding. If you stand there and let them keep hitting you, sure, it might as well be 12 HP extra; but a withdraw action ends the fight. In fact, a few arrows can probably end an orc fight before it even starts... hobgoblins, with their better AC and more real hit points, are far more likely to survive a volley. Oh, and they also have bows of their own.

And now's the time where I need to point out that hobgoblins and orcs have the same CR. The sample hobgoblin is a fighter (PC class, elite array for attributes), which raises its CR by 1 category. The orc is a warrior (NPC class, non-elite) which represents the baseline. Note also that CR 1/3 is considered equivalent to a standard player race.

If we reduce the hob to a mere warrior, he'll lose 1 to hit/damage, 1 AC and 1 HP because of the reduced ability scores. Perception drops to +0 and Stealth to +4 (or Perception +1 and Stealth +3), and he loses one feat... let's keep Toughness.

The CR 1/3 hobgoblin has 10 HP, AC 16/14f/12t, and attacks at +2 for 1d8+1 or ranged +2 for 1d8. He's tough and hard to hit, but he views the players as being tough and hard to hit as well. If you hang back and attack at range, he's perfectly content to do the same... in fact, he's very likely to keep away from melee himself if he can avoid it.

The orc has 6 HP + Ferocity, AC 13/13f/10t, and attacks at +5 for 2d4+4 (only +4 to hit in daylight). Yep, he hits like a truck; standing next to him is guaranteed to be painful. But he's an easy target, and if you play keep-away he might as well not even have a weapon. The only game he knows is charge and smash, and if you deny him that option he's sunk. And this is assuming he even sees you, with that -1 Perception.

Looks good to me!

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

...and something I was wondering about but didn't mention, just got a FAQ. The hobgoblin entry is wrong, it should have 17 HP because PC classes get a maxed first HD!

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