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In the APG, the Shield Fighter gains an ability of the same name at level 5. It actually does two things, the first of which is pretty clear. The second of which I need help with.
Can I use the "alternate attacks" feature to exclusively shield bash? I'm level 9 in my current game with TWF (but not Imp TWF). Normally my attack routine goes like this:
-2 sword swing
-7 sword swing
-2 shield bash
For three attacks total per round.
Which of these sword swings can I convert into bashes?
As I read it, you could use that ability to do
shield shield
shield
or
sword shield
sword
as ususal, or,
shield shield
sword
etc.
However, I believe there were some prior threads dedicated to this that came up with another interpretation that makes it more useless.
"This action does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does." means that while using "Shield Fighter" I don't gain extra attacks from TWF? (i.e. I'm no allowed to use TWF while using that class feature)
That text is just a clarification. It means that you don't get extra attacks simply because you are using that ability.
It doesn't remove extra attacks you get from other sources (like the TWF feat).
To make it easier to understand, forget about twf when trying to understand this ability.
Example a 11 fighter using this power can.
Sword sword shield or sword wield sword or shield sword shield. Or any other combination he wants. No twf is required to use this power.
However re reading the wording on the power. It looks like you could go
Sword primary attack, sword offend attack, shield primary, shield primary
As I'm sure many people will object, the second part of Shield Fighter reinforces the "shield bashes are only off hand attacks" in the PFRPG core book. The reason being, if shield bashes truly were supposed to be interchangable attacks, why would there be a special rule allowing for it to happen?
From a RAW standpoint, the line in a light/heavy shields description states shield bash attempts are off hand attacks. By default an off hand attack requires you to be making a full round attack with imposed penalties (depending on the weapons, feats, etc) from TWFing.
The 5th level alternate ability Shield Fighter, would give you the ability to make the choice of which weapon you use for each attack you make during a full round attack sequence. In the example of your 9th level fighter with TWF feat, each of the 3 attacks you make during your full attack sequence could be determined by you before making the attack. This is an exception to the normal primary attack x2 off hand attack x1 for every full attack. You could shield bash for every attack, or use your sword for every attack, or any combination (shield shield, sword; Sword shield, sword; etc). You would still incur the normal penalties for the attack but would not incur additional penalties above or beyond the normal TWF for using this ability.
If you didn't have TWF feat(s) you would be allowed to use your shield as an exception to rule the stated in the shields description on a full round attack as well. The post Cult of Vorg is referring to (I think) was one where it was brought up that if a character had multiple attacks due to a high BAB, they are allowed to make the choice with which weapon before making the attack. The example I think was someone with a sword in one hand and a dagger in another and let us say a +6 BAB. If that character made a full round attack action, they could with the first attack use the sword (+6) and for the second attack use the dagger (+1). This would not bring the TWF penalties into effect as they aren't attempting to make more attacks than BAB allows and neither weapon has any extra rules involved in their description.
With a shield however, there is a statement saying that shield bash attacks are off hand attacks, which brings into the mix the TWF penalties. By default a shield bash is always a TWF fighting style with that statement. The Shield Fighter ability would allow you an exception to the stated rule and give you the option to treat the shield bash as "just another attack" instead of the off hand attack it is specifically stated to be. This would allow someone with this ability and a BAB of +6 to make 2 shield bashes, or 1 shield bash and 1 weapon strike (which ever order they choose), or 2 weapon strikes. At BAB of +11, they could do any combination of shield or weapon strikes for each of the 3 attacks and at +16 the same with each of the 4 attacks they would have.
I need confirmation or correction on something. If two-weapon fighting while using the Shield Fighter ability, without TWF feats, wielding a dwarven waraxe and a heavy shield, would the attack sequence be:
1. axe -6 or shield -5
2. shield -9
3. axe -11 or shield -10?
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As I'm sure many people will object, the second part of Shield Fighter reinforces the "shield bashes are only off hand attacks" in the PFRPG core book. The reason being, if shield bashes truly were supposed to be interchangable attacks, why would there be a special rule allowing for it to happen?
No. James Jacobs has pretty much confirmed that Shield Bashes don`t NEED to be off-hand attacks normally, i.e. you can Move and make an Attack Action with your Shield Bash. ...Though we`re still waiting on Errata to update the misleading text suggesting otherwise.
What is being changed by this ability is the ability to interchange attacks between different weapons. A NORMAL fighter with +11/+6/+1 full attack (no 2WF) could make all those attacks with their Shield Bash OR all with their longsword, but not both. 2WF is just a parallel attack sequence which normally can`t be interchanged either. Basically, you must normally make all your `primary` attacks with the same weapon, and if using 2WF, all your `off hand` attacks with the same weapon.
That is what this ability is changing.
EDIT: I`m pretty sure I saw Paizo staff commenting on the situation where Shield Slam/Shield Master still require 2WF Feats to qualify for, while a good part of the point of the Shielded Fighter variant is that you DON`T need to USE 2WF to make both Shield Slam and `normal` attacks each round. Can`t find that comment anywhere right now, but I believe it`s something Paizo was `looking at` updating/Errata`ing.
Rise.... RISE! RIIIIISE!
Thread necro!
Okay... I have a 16th level Shield Fighter:
Primary Attack +17
Secondary Attack +12
Tertiary Attack +7
Final Attack +2
And the full TWF Chain:
TWF: Offhand First +19 (Thanks to Shield Master because these are all shield bashes)
ITWF: Offhand Second +14
GTWF: Offhand Third +9
Can I now make all of these attacks with Shield Bashes, allowing SEVEN shield bash attacks per round with a full attack action?
We have established that:
* Shield Master allows a MAXIMUM of +2 attack and damage bonus as an enhancement bonus because the heavy shield adds only it's BASE shield bonus, not it's modified Shield Bonus due to feats or magical enhancement.
* Shield Bashes are always off-hand attacks, and not able to be used as primary attacks -except- in the case of the Shield Fighter class feature.
* Shield Spikes and the Bashing quality stack if your GM says it's okay, but James Jacobs still hasn't made a definitive ruling on the subject one way or another.
Okay. Wierd. That post didn't land. Let's try this again.
I'm necroing this thread in the hopes of more discussion. Hope people pop down to the bottom.
Is this right, with the Shield Fighter? Can my high level character attack seven times with his shield with a full-attack action?
No thanks. I want to use crane style.
Can't bash with a buckler. So that's completely pointless.
Ah, in direct counterpoint to 'shield bashes are always off-hand attacks':
Tracking right or left handedness isn't something we bother with in Pathfinder. The ONLY time an attack is considered an off-hand attack is when you make an attack with a second weapon in the same round you make an attack with a first weapon.
If you have a longsword in your right hand and a shield in your left, and you only attack with a shield bash in a round, that shield bash is NOT considered an off-hand or secondary attack for that round.
Can I now make all of these attacks with Shield Bashes, allowing SEVEN shield bash attacks per round with a full attack action?
Shield Fighter (Ex): "At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1."
Making all your attacks with a shield bash is not alternating between using your weapon or your shield for each attack.
As to the intent of the ability, here's the guy who wrote it explaining:
The wording of the contentious ability is intended to explicate swapping between main weapon and shield attacks because:
a. There are somewhat ambiguous references in the Core Rulebook that suggest that shield bash can ONLY be made as off-hand weapon attacks, so that any shield bash by definition would be off-hand. With this ability, it's not.
b. The Core Rules don't specify (as 3.5 sorta-kinda did) that you could trade off between weapons. With this ability, it does.
c. As a side, note, though, I should have phrased it a little differently to specifically state that you using the shield-weapon alternate attacks is not compatible with TWF. Why? Well...
(Spoiler omitted, text of Shield Fighter (Ex))
Now, the intent of this ability is to let weapon & shield guys be able to do their regular attacks and be able to swap between whacking somebody with their sword and bashing with their shield. So, our 6th level fighter, for instance, has attacks at +6/+1. He could do both with sword, both with shield, or one of each. Fighter guy with shield can slash OR bash without having a lot of deep investment.
Here's the sticky part:
Let's say our enterprising fighter takes TWF and IpvTWF. Now, he would normally have four attacks at +6/+1 sword and +6/+1 shield. Except this fighter, using the Shield Fighter ability as written (with a slightly liberal reading), could instead take all four attacks with his best weapon. This saves him a ton on improving his gear (just make one beefy weapon instead of two for TWF), obviates the lesser damage for off-hand attacks, etc.
Yes, he has to spend 2 feats and devote stat points to DEX instead of STR, so it's not a total win, but it still looks awfully cheesy if you take it that way.
Does this need to get fixed?
As a suggestion, I might rephrase it as something like this:
Cuts the cheese without having to go through a lot of permutations. Sorry I didn't catch this when I was writing it in the first place, but sometimes you miss an angle until you reread it a few months later with fresh eyes and say, "Hey, wait a minute..."
In short, that second part of Shield Fighter just makes it explicitly clear that you can alternate your normal non-TWF iterative attacks. At the time it was written, we didn't have the iterative FAQ and JJ quotes about alternating attacks.
Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for each iterative attack. This action does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does, but it cannot be used in conjunction with two-weapon fighting. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
This is -terrible-. Disregarding the quote about being allowed to use a shield as a single primary attack, this makes a kind of poor-man's two weapon fighting for use with shield bashing? This is the SHIELDED FIGHTER. He's going to take shield mastery and shield bash, which -requires- two weapon fighting. Shielded Fighters are going to take it. The Shield Fighter damage bump is -pathetic- compared to every other version of the weapon-training boost. You can only use the shield on every other attack, the shield is less accurate, and does less damage, than every other weapon in the game -unless- the GM lets you spend on stacking spikes/Bashing-Property, which JJ discourages.
They could at least give us the close weapon group.
Why PUT in a class feature and then prevent people from being able to use it? It's ridiculous. We have the same issue with the light armored fighters (mobile and free-hand?) not replacing their heavy armor proficiencies. They get all these abilities that don't work in heavy armor, and then they retain heavy armor proficiency.
Not sure if its on-topic but where does it actualy say sheilds are always secondary attacks? I couldnt find it when i looked. (we had a char in our last game who was a twf shield guy and i looked it up then)
Under the equipment section where it explains shield bashing. Look up the description of shields.
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Not sure if its on-topic but where does it actualy say sheilds are always secondary attacks?
It doesn't, it was changed in errata and FAQ.
Shield Bash: If I make a shield bash (page 152), does it always have to be an off-hand attack?
The text for a shield bash assumes you're making a bash as an off-hand attack, but you don't have to. You can, for example, just make a shield bash attack (at your normal, main-hand attack bonus) or shield bash with your main hand and attack with a sword in your off-hand.
Update: Page 152—In the Shield Bash Attacks section, in the first sentence, delete “using it as an off-hand weapon.”
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/31/11
This is -terrible-.
Not really. You gain most of the effect of weapon training with the weapon you're most focused on anyway, and you also get Shield Buffet and Shield Guard.
Disregarding the quote about being allowed to use a shield as a single primary attack, this makes a kind of poor-man's two weapon fighting for use with shield bashing?
No, it's just weapon training without the extra weapon groups and the combat maneuver stuff.
The Shield Fighter damage bump is -pathetic- compared to every other version of the weapon-training boost.
The damage bump is identical. +1 at 5th, +2 at 9th, +3 at 13th, and +4 at 17th.
You can only use the shield on every other attack, the shield is less accurate, and does less damage, than every other weapon in the game -unless- the GM lets you spend on stacking spikes/Bashing-Property, which JJ discourages.
No, you can make every attack with it. You can Two-Weapon Fight if you have two of them. It's just as accurate as any other weapon you're specializing in. Yes, it does less damage than other martial weapons (either from die size or lack of crit bonuses) but you do gain the AC bonus, so there's got to be some kind of trade off.