Psionics, just what needs fixed for Pathfinder?

[seekerofshadowlight]

Ok guys at the risk of making this worse the other two threads got me thinking. Just what does need to change? What needs taken out, fixed, reworked or what have you?

What is the things you think must be fixed for pathfinder?

For me I have a few.

1: I think powers must be spells. They must use the same casting rules from chapter 9 of the PFRPG. This is not about points or no points but when I stat up a psion I should be able to list his "powers" from the core rule book like any other class. They should use the same rules, same SR and same freaking skill checks.

2: The free still, silent spell needs to go As for the V,S,M not fitting I call bull on most of it. In books and tv psychic powers always have gestures or words of some type, many need a focus or an item to use. So really it fits {Also though ya could have eschew materials for free, which to me works best}

3: Novaing, It needs addressed and ended, I don't care how, no points , max points per power per level, a prancing pixie keeping score. Does not matter as long as it is addressed and ended.

These are my big three, to me these must be fixed or your wasting time even messing with it as you have the same issues as now.

So lets see what you think needs fixed, both PRo, anti and guys in between. What is on your list as needing fixed?

[meatrace]

You are wrong on 1 and 2. 3 is an easy fix.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Your more then welcome to think so. As I stated this is what I think needs fixed.

What do you think needs fixed?

[Epic Meepo]

I... Am amazed by how much I actually agree with the OP.

Powers that are re-skinned Core spells should just be replaced by Core spells.

There should be some way to disrupt manifesting. (Not necessarily V and S components, but something.)

And all of the stupid nova loopholes should be closed.

Plus, I'll add that the rules should make it 100% clear that psionics and magic absolutely do effect one another.

As an aside, I feel that the approach being taken in this thread is orders of magnitude more productive than the endless challenges and posturing about what can and cannot possibly fit in this or that product line.

[Senevri]

mainly few, individual broken powers - namely anything that gives extra actions. Some of the worst was in CPsi, so we can ignore it, really.
Drop: Hustle, Schism, Fission, Fusion, Bestow Power. I think that'll do.

Still, that's a large nerf on a balanced system, so they need some goodies back.

That being a said, I compiled a list of psionic-y spells, for a specialized caster type - I left off anything with a magical-vibe name, as well as elemental stuff. Mage hand, Mage's Sword and sanctums and such would have been in otherwise. Reflavor name, and you'd get a bunch more stuff in.

Speaking of names, psionic powers fit right in as magic if you change their name.

Sonic and air spells, some of them, fit psychokinesis.

Spoiler:

Cantrips -- Bleed, Daze, Know Direction , Message, Mending, Open/Close, Resistance, Stabilize

1st -- Alarm, Endure elements, Hold Portal, Shield, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Command, Detect Secret Doors, Detect, Undead, Identify, True Strike, Charm Animal, Charm Person, Entropic Shield, , Remove Fear, Sanctuary, Hypnotism, Floating Disk, Cause Fear, Animate Rope, Erase, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump,

2nd -- Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strenght, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom, Fox's Cunning, Eagle's Splendor, Alter Self, Blindness/Deafness, Calm Emotions, Delay Poison, Detect Thoughts, Daze Monster, Levitate, Locate Object, Scare, See Invisibility, Enthrall, Find Traps, Gust of Wind, Hold Person, Make Whole, Pyrotechnics, Shatter, Sound Burst, Spider Climb, Status, Zone of Truth

3rd -- Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Fly, Haste, Heroism, Invisibility Purge, Locate Object, Protection from Energy, Slow, Tongues, Vampiric Touch, Water Walk, Water Breathing, Wind Wall

4th -- Air Walk, Charm Monster, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Fear, Geas Lesser, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Locate Creature, Minor Creation, Neutralize Poison, Resilient Sphere, Shout, Telekinesis, Sending, Stone Shape

5th -- CommandGreater, Dream, Dismissal, Fabricate, Freedom of Movement, Major Creation, Dominate Person, Interposing Hand, Nightmare, Overland Flight, Phantasmal Killer, Plane Shift, Teleport, Telepathic Bond, True Seeing, Wall of Force

6th -- Animate Objects, Control Water, Disintegrate, Forceful Hand, Hardening, HeroismGreater, Move Earth, Repulsion, SuggestionMass, Transformation

7th -- Etheral Jaunt, Discern Location, Finger of Death, Grasping Hand, Insanity, Plane Shift, Regenerate,Reverse Gravity, Teleport Greater, Teleport Object, Vision, Waves of Exhaustion

8th -- Clenched Fist, Clone, Dimensional Lock, Iron Body, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Shout Greater, Telekinetic Sphere, Temporal Stasis

9th -- Astral Projection, Crushing Hand, Dominate Monster, Etherealness, Foresight, Hold Monster mass, Implosion, Teleportation Circle, Time Stop

You can play a faux-psion by picking an appropriate sorcerer bloodline and taking the correct powers, if you must. You could make a psion a sorcerer-variant class.

There's a lack of low-level offensive powers, there.

Still, I feel psionics NEED some custom mechanic, so that they taste different.
1. Absolutely no material components.
2. Somatic components are okay - I feel pointing a hand is very intuitive for TK and such.
3. Verbal components... maybe not. Rather not.

Interestingly, mages are scientists and psions are mystics in DnD, but what can you do.
Thematically, anything that's possible with an infinite energy source and near-infinitely accurate manipulation fits psionics. Blatantly impossible stuff, less so. Summoning is a no. Illusions are mainly no.

I didn't go through all lists, so a camoflage spell for an example, would fit. Awaken and it's ilk, not so much. Creation and Fabricate might fit, and maybe resurrect line - not reincarnate.

The thing is, if you expand psionic list to vancian, you need a ton of lesser and greater versions of everything, and that isn't just annoying, that's stupid. Also a waste of space.

A proper psion ---no, a proper ESPER would have a terribly limited set of powers - psychokinesis related and telepathy-related, for an example, but they shouldn't need to be represented by 23 different spells.
I find the whole lesser&greater spells thing to be a failure point in vancian casting.

Still, 'Esper' would be a great name for a beguiler-like limited list caster vancian psionic rewrite class.

[Freesword]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

1: I think powers must be spells. They must use the same casting rules from chapter 9 of the PFRPG. This is not about points or no points but when I stat up a psion I should be able to list his "powers" from the core rule book like any other class. They should use the same rules, same SR and same freaking skill checks.

You want the Variant: Psionics is Different rules removed. I can agree with this. Outside of that variant however SR has always been the same, and AoO and concentration checks work exactly the same as casting either way.

As for using the spells from core as powers directly, that is probably best handled as a variant rule since spells scale automatically by caster level, where as powers scale by points spent. On the plus side this would solve the issue of psionic powers being ignored in supplements for page count reasons. It may be worth looking into. I could live with psionic conversion rules for spells.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

2: The free still, silent spell needs to go As for the V,S,M not fitting I call bull on most of it. In books and tv psychic powers always have gestures or words of some type, many need a focus or an item to use. So really it fits {Also though ya could have eschew materials for free, which to me works best}

Funny, my experience has been that in most media psionics have involved little more than focusing (usually represented by staring i.e. the "I'm thinking at you" look although sometimes a mantra is repeated) and concentrating really hard. I do see where this gives psionics an advantage over core casters, however it is very situational.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

3: Novaing, It needs addressed and ended, I don't care how, no points , max points per power per level, a prancing pixie keeping score. Does not matter as long as it is addressed and ended.

There is already a max power points per level cap based on their manifester level. While the wilder has a class ability to increase manifester level and there is a feat to do so, both of these have a cost to use them (although the wilder only has a 5% chance of incurring that cost per manifester level of increase). The feat involves taking 1d8 damage per level of increase. Personally I think the wilder should take damage (at least non-lethal) every time they use this ability.

As far as the novaing causing a 15 minute work day, that is a player problem and no worse than when the wizard burned through their high level spells and called for a rest.

Best fix for this would be some minor all day abilities similar to cantirps/orisons and school/domain powers.

Expanding on your theme...

Psionic and magic items should be treated the same, no separate feat to create the psionic version or equivalent of an item.

Psionic classes should have unique class abilitites. (Psion shouldn't just be a wizard with a coat of paint and a sticker that says Psionic).

Psionic abilities should be equally effective against non-psionic characters/creatures as magic. (no special psionic defenses to counter them or having no effect on non-psioinc opponents) This isn't so much a change as avoiding psionics becoming a win button or relegated to a rock/paper/scissors mini game exclusive to psionic characters/creatures.

Drop the new age flavoring (personal preference).

Energy powers that allow you to swap out energy types on the fly for free are a bit too good compared to magic. Make them one type only and require that an energy type be chosen when you learn the power but it can be learned multiple times with different energy types each time or swapped on the fly with a feat.

Oh, and for the record, I am very much Pro-3.5 Psionics. I can understand there are valid complaints and have a few of my own. The biggest fix psionics needs is to move beyond misconceptions about it and issues with problem players.

[Jared Ouimette]

I was thinking more along the lines of supernatural abilities that progressivelly got more powerful.

[Epic Meepo]

Freesword wrote:

...spells scale automatically by caster level, where as powers scale by points spent.

I suppose you could always say that every spell of every level has a point cost equal to the psion's caster level; then add that psions can choose to voluntarily lower their effective caster level when casting a spell to reduce its point cost.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Or you could not have the points argument at all or only in limited ways like ki points

[Senevri]

Jared Ouimette wrote:

I was thinking more along the lines of supernatural abilities that progressivelly got more powerful.

+1. Supernatural abilities, that'd be really neat.

[cfalcon]

Psionics needs to remain mental actions IMO. The power balance can be adjusted in other ways.

Novaing pretty much needs to end. Even without wierd nova-sploits, the fact remains that a psion can "oom" much faster than a wizard or sorcerer. The 3.x Psion got less use out of his power points if he spent them gradually than a wizard/sorcerer casting their spells, and frequently is in a situation where he's choosing to spend 1 power point for 1d6 of damage (that can be mitigated with a save or whatever)- and he has NO incentive to save that power point for next round unless he thinks he's into overkill territory. Even then, the chance of a successful save or resistance makes him think twice about it- you'd rather spend 5 more PP and probably KILL the enemy, letting the fighter not have to charge it or whatever.

Summary: Give a 10th level psion a reason to only spend 5 PPs in a round even when nuking, much like a 10th level wizard has a reason to cast a 3rd level spell. Sure, his 5th level spell could be better- but he doesn't hate the round he casts fireball or haste. Reduce the desire to spend Level*PP in a round, and balance the total damage done to a wizard or sorcerer of equivalent level.

[BenignFacist]

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A player can simply play any existing character class and claim elements of the class's mechanics are manifestations of awesome mental powers.

However, if there *has* to be a special psionic mechanic/system put in place:

1: Scrap the seperate system, scrap the psionic classes, throw the whole kaboodle into the garbage/dustbin/trash/abyss.

Then add lots of 'psionic' feat/feat chains.

Now we can play mages,fighters, rogues and badgers with psionic powers.

..and it'd keep things simpler.

You want to have psyhcic powers? Take a feat.

Because you're special!

I wrote:

''Magic is magic is magic - breaking/twisting the 'rules of reality' - be it with arcane gestures, mental powers or divine energies.''

Oh and if there is to be a power point/mana system then all magic should use it.

*shakes fist*

[cfalcon]

No reason psionics shouldn't be its own thing. It always has been, and it's thematically distinct.

It should still mechanically be magic, of course- you should be able to dispel magic, etc. A lot of the problems we have seen so far have been "created last" syndrome.

[Senevri]

cfalcon wrote:

P

Summary: Give a 10th level psion a reason to only spend 5 PPs in a round even when nuking, much like a 10th level wizard has a reason to cast a 3rd level spell.

Uh, right now - referring the 3.5 rules in SRD - that's infeasible, as the wizard is 'novaing' with 10pp using a 3rd level spell (or 5pp). Basically, your psion using 5pp is dealing 5d6 damage. The wizard is dealing 10d6 damage. as-is right now.. no, just no.

The psion _could_ be doing 10d6, but the wizard could be using empowered fireball which effectively deals 15d6, so...

I'm not entirely sure how a psion can 'nova', at least harder than the wizard, when it's limited by ML. Perhaps with schism and quicken power, a bit... but the wizard-or-sorcerer does that too. A Sorcerer could drop a quickened 5d6 and an empowered effective 15d6 in the same round, no problem.

From one point of view, all of psion's "spell slots" are always equal to their top level, and broken down when using less power.
Of course, similarly, wizard's slots are top level slots, as long as the spell hasn't reached it's die cap.

Thing is, outside the crystal fetish and the few extra action powers, there isn't really anything wrong with psionics. It even perfectly represents most mana systems.

That being said, I wouldn't mind yet another alternate system, just because. Add-ons to the rules are the salt of the 3.x engine.

[Lazaro]

Senevri wrote:

Jared Ouimette wrote:

I was thinking more along the lines of supernatural abilities that progressivelly got more powerful.

+1. Supernatural abilities, that'd be really neat.

If anything they should be spell-like and not supernatural. As spell-like abilities they are subject to SR, counterspelling and dispelling. More importantly the flavor of being spell-like fits.

Core Rulebook, pg. 221 wrote:

A spell-like ability has

no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally.

-sidenote- I still believe, after the beta testing of the PFRPG, that the sorcerers spells being cast as spell-like abilities fits :)

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

1: I think powers must be spells. They must use the same casting rules from chapter 9 of the PFRPG. This is not about points or no points but when I stat up a psion I should be able to list his "powers" from the core rule book like any other class. They should use the same rules, same SR and same freaking skill checks.

2: The free still, silent spell needs to go As for the V,S,M not fitting I call bull on most of it. In books and tv psychic powers always have gestures or words of some type, many need a focus or an item to use. So really it fits {Also though ya could have eschew materials for free, which to me works best}

+1

If the other classes have to deal with the components so should the psionist. And while I am a fan of spell and power points, making a psionic character into a vancian based caster could/would save on having to explain a new point system to new players.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

3: Novaing, It needs addressed and ended, I don't care how, no points , max points per power per level, a prancing pixie keeping score. Does not matter as long as it is addressed and ended.

Not sure. Though I never ran into Novaing in my games.

[Senevri]

Lazaro wrote:

-sidenote- I still believe, after the beta testing of the PFRPG, that the sorcerers spells being cast as spell-like abilities fits :)

It breaks down on expensive material components.

Spell-like Wish? Yes, please.

[ProfessorCirno]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Ok guys at the risk of making this worse the other two threads got me thinking. Just what does need to change? What needs taken out, fixed, reworked or what have you?

What is the things you think must be fixed for pathfinder?

For me I have a few.

1: I think powers must be spells. They must use the same casting rules from chapter 9 of the PFRPG. This is not about points or no points but when I stat up a psion I should be able to list his "powers" from the core rule book like any other class. They should use the same rules, same SR and same freaking skill checks.

Magic-psionics transparency already exists. Are you claiming that there should be no powers that copy arcane spells? Impossible, for any class - there are no things for which there is not an arcane spell to go with it.

Quote:

2: The free still, silent spell needs to go As for the V,S,M not fitting I call bull on most of it. In books and tv psychic powers always have gestures or words of some type, many need a focus or an item to use. So really it fits {Also though ya could have eschew materials for free, which to me works best}

Disagree. Psionics are classified first and foremost as "psychic powers" and, I'd love to hear those book and tv examples of gestures and words needed to use them. Besides which, in Pathfinder they would assumably use the new concentration rules, which means negating the still/silent aspect would be significantly harder.

Quote:

3: Novaing, It needs addressed and ended, I don't care how, no points , max points per power per level, a prancing pixie keeping score. Does not matter as long as it is addressed and ended.

Nope. Why are wizards allowed the nova with autoscaling powers but psions aren't? There is no way to reduce the nova without drastically nerfing the psion and hurting those that don't nova.

Quote:

So lets see what you think needs fixed, both PRo, anti and guys in between. What is on your list as needing fixed?

Fix the soulknife, make nomads cooler.

[Themetricsystem]

I know not a whole lot of people will probably agree with me here but I will stick my neck out.

The basic assumption behind psions is that they manifest powers to clarity of mind, discipline, and concentration, not fancy reagents, giggerish, and fancy sign-language. I think a system that requires concentration checks on ALL spellcasting (Or manifests, or whatever) would be highly appropriate and would help differentiate between normal spellcasting and psionic casting.

I could see a system where if you fail the check the power fizzles, no loss of spell slots, just a lost action. It doesn't overly punish the player but it retains it own unique requirement.

I don't believe they need power-points or really even special spell lists for the different types. They could all share 1 list of psionic spells and have different spell level progression.

Does this make any sense to anyone else?

[seekerofshadowlight]

ProfessorCirno wrote:

Psionics are classified first and foremost as "psychic powers" and, I'd love to hear those book and tv examples of gestures and words needed to use them.

Was not gonna respond to this, but as a few of ya have brought it up

"These are not the droids you are looking for" is the one most people know. Alot of mental powers in books/TV involve you talking to your subject "Yes you want to do that, No you did not see me" or wave hands to make folks forget along with talking And so on

Gestures are very common, pointing your hand, using motions to hurl objects holding your hand to you temple are all very common troupes.

All these action would count as V or S in pathfinder and could be stopped, gag you or tie ya up so ya cant foucse on a spot with your hands to direct your mental power.

All in all they are common used troupes

[Senevri]

Well, I do have a soft spot for skill-based casts. Concentration scales a bit differently, being a flat level+stat check, so it scales... to...

Okay, it scales from 0 to about 30, or bit above. A 9th level power with concentration of 30 should work on a roll of 5, and a 1st level power at 1st level on a roll of 10ish. DC 5 + power level x 3? Would start at 8, scale up to DC 32.

Add some benefit where for every 5 or 10, the result passes the DC you gain some sort of a bonus.

Pick powers on a similar schedule to arcane caster, but less - say, pick two disciplines, and at-will from those.

What happens on skill check failure? and is there a daily limitation?

Power usable x/day as a sla, and extra usages require a check, on failure a status effect, or, say, lose access to the power for the rest of the day?

truenaming-style mechanic where the DC increases for each use?

[Freesword]

[First line redacted] Making psionics a full round action instead of standard to simulate the focus and concentration necessary?

[Add]
Would this be something that could be used to address some of the issues with psioniics?

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Alot of mental powers in books/TV involve you talking to your subject "Yes you want to do that, No you did not see me" or wave hands to make folks forget along with talking And so on

Gestures are very common, pointing your hand, using motions to hurl objects holding your hand to you temple are all very common troupes.

You are correct. There are more visual representations of manifesting mental powers than I had recalled. The hand to temple "I'm thinking at you" pose. The gestures to indicate that a character is taking some type of action.

[seekerofshadowlight]

I am not saying it must be verbal and somatic but the free still and silent spell must go. You must be able to keep them from casting and must be a ways to disrupt them,[ back in 2e a metal helm stopped em dead for example}

To me verbal and somatic was the easiest way that fit is all. And full round action seems harsh when other casters do not have such anymore

[ProfessorCirno]

Those aren't somatic gestures though.

Somatic gestures are described as being very big and grand movements that wearing armor weighs you down too much to perform. "Armor interferes with a wizard's movements, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail."

[Epic Meepo]

Lazaro wrote:

If anything they should be spell-like and not supernatural. As spell-like abilities they are subject to SR, counterspelling and dispelling. More importantly the flavor of being spell-like fits.

Being spell-like would even fit mechanically. Except in a few corner cases, psionic powers in 3.5 are identical to spell-like abilities. They just cost points instead of uses per day.

BenignFacist wrote:

Scrap the seperate system, scrap the psionic classes... Then add lots of 'psionic' feat/feat chains.

Or do both. Make a manifesting feat chain anyone can take, but have the existing psionic classes as well, with their manifetsing ability described in terms of bonus manifesting feats instead of hard coded into the classes themselves.

Themetricsystem wrote:

I think a system that requires concentration checks on ALL spellcasting (Or manifests, or whatever) would be highly appropriate and would help differentiate between normal spellcasting and psionic casting.

I could totally see that. Or a system where you have to make a concentration check to use a power unless you use verbal and somatic components. So you don't get free Still and Silent Spell; you have to concentrate really, really hard to use them.

[Epic Meepo]

ProfessorCirno wrote:

Somatic gestures are described as being very big and grand movements that wearing armor weighs you down too much to perform. "Armor interferes with a wizard's movements, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail."

Except cleric spells also have somatic components, and armor doesn't interfere with cleric spells.

EDIT: Here's the PRD definition...

PRD wrote:

Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

Based on that definition, a psionic power could definitely have a somatic component.

[Themetricsystem]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I am not saying it must be verbal and somatic but the free still and silent spell must go. You must be able to keep them from casting and must be a ways to disrupt them,[ back in 2e a metal helm stopped em dead for example}

It would remain on the same casting system the way I propose. Casting defensively would simply add 5 to the regular DC to cast the spell and it only requires one roll. Failure means they provoke, failure by more than 5 (A precedent set by MANY other skill checks, such a acrobatics) means they fail casting the spell period and still provoke.

[Senevri]

Y'know, I'm really starting to get this 'simplify, simplify' vibe.
Would an UNCAPPED TK at level 1 be a bad thing, if it was pretty much the only class feature?

At l1, TK is: move 25 pounds, throw 1 object as a ranged attack, CMB 1+(int/wis/cha)

I bet, I bet, you could build a rather decent psychic character with just a few ability paths that are just used better than mere spells.

For reference, here's my generic DND class power progression jump chart:

Quote:

Level|Points|Breakpoint|Boosts|New_Ability
1____|__1__|________|______|
2____|__1__|________|______|____1
3-4__|__2__|________|___1__|
5____|__2__|________|______|____2
6____|__3__|___1____|______|
7-8__|__4__|________|______|
9-10_|__5__|________|______|____3
11-12|__6__|___2____|______|
13-14|__7__|________|______|____4
15___|__8__|________|___2__|
16___|__8__|________|______|____5
17-18|__9__|___3____|______|
19-20|__9__|________|______|____6

Explanation: Points = spell level. Breakpoint = level where the gameplay ups/changes genre, so class needs a power boost. Boost = additional power ups for a 'primary' power class. a 'secondary' power class would lose those. New Ability = something new the character can do now.

So: our sample TK-focused psion would get a new ability at the 'new ability' points. Say, Flight at 2, Teleportation at 3, and so forth.
Boosts (and breakpoints) could be increases in one of the aspects of power - DC increase on boosts 1+2, maybe a CL increase at breakpoints 1, 2, 3. Or something like Master of the Unseen Hand abilties.

*edit* isn't it fun to discover the code eats whitespace?

[Themetricsystem]

Senevri wrote:

*edit* isn't it fun to discover the code eats whitespace?

Yeah, that is why whenever I need to do illustrations I just link to my photobucket.

[Sarrion]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Ok guys at the risk of making this worse the other two threads got me thinking. Just what does need to change? What needs taken out, fixed, reworked or what have you?

What is the things you think must be fixed for pathfinder?

For me I have a few.

1: I think powers must be spells. They must use the same casting rules from chapter 9 of the PFRPG. This is not about points or no points but when I stat up a psion I should be able to list his "powers" from the core rule book like any other class. They should use the same rules, same SR and same freaking skill checks.

2: The free still, silent spell needs to go As for the V,S,M not fitting I call bull on most of it. In books and tv psychic powers always have gestures or words of some type, many need a focus or an item to use. So really it fits {Also though ya could have eschew materials for free, which to me works best}

3: Novaing, It needs addressed and ended, I don't care how, no points , max points per power per level, a prancing pixie keeping score. Does not matter as long as it is addressed and ended.

These are my big three, to me these must be fixed or your wasting time even messing with it as you have the same issues as now.

So lets see what you think needs fixed, both PRo, anti and guys in between. What is on your list as needing fixed?

1) Psionic powers should be listed like sorcerer spells (what powers you know) but that should be the furthest extent in similarity or else they are just wizards or sorcerers under a different name.

2) In books and TV people with psychic powers concentrated in order to manifest their powers. Sometimes they used slight gestures like a twitching eye or they would say something dramatic and then point at someone. There didn't seem to be any practiced technique to those actions, if anything they are added for more dramatic effect. Unless mad cackling is the verbal component of force lightning.

3) I am assuming novaing is being able to dump more points into an ability to make it bigger. This could be limited by an ability modifier or by adding rounds to an action. It seemed when psychic people try to do really big/bad things they have to focus for a longer period of time to pull it off.

-Note that the psionic players could still be subject to concentration checks.

[Anguish]

Quote:

1: I think powers must be spells.

As has been mentioned previously, don't use the optional psionics is different rule.

Quote:

2: The free still, silent spell needs to go

I disagree for a couple reasons. One: it's an interesting gish option. Two: it comes up rarely enough that it's not a significant power difference. In a decade of playing 3.5 I can count on my fingers the number of times I'd have needed either Still or Silent casting. Sure, if it were free I might come up with some tactics for it, but it's not inherently important. It's not broken.

Quote:

3: Novaing

Assuming the need for addressing this, one of the ways my group has come up with is a per-encounter figure. Basically, you get something like a third your PP allotment at the start of the day and you get another 1/4 each encounter. So you still have flexibility but can't blow everything all at once because you don't have it.

[seekerofshadowlight]

As I said guys those are what I think need fixed. You may think other wise but until those three items are addressed and fixed Psioncs does not work with the core game to me.

If you have ideas then feel free to post em as I would like to see what other folks think really needs fixed but telling me I am wrong will not change my stance on those three needing fixed.

[Cold Napalm]

ProfessorCirno wrote:

Those aren't somatic gestures though.

Somatic gestures are described as being very big and grand movements that wearing armor weighs you down too much to perform. "Armor interferes with a wizard's movements, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail."

Your wrong. Somatic gestures are described as complicated for ARCANE spells only. It isn't even described for divine spells. Which also brings up the point that divine spells somatic components aren't affected by armor...so they must be different from the arcane ones. So for all we know, divine casters somatic components maybe to point, put their hands to their head, yadda yadda.

[Cold Napalm]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

As I said guys those are what I think need fixed. You may think other wise but until those three items are addressed and fixed Psioncs does not work with the core game to me.

If you have ideas then feel free to post em as I would like to see what other folks think really needs fixed but telling me I am wrong will not change my stance on those three needing fixed.

My only thing is that psionics and magic MUST have FULL transparency with zero option for otherwise. Otherwise, really, it's a deal breaker for me.

Other then that, powers brought in line with the new system, don't make OP/UP classes/feats/powers, yadda yadda. You know what you generally want in splat book (but rarely get).

[wraithstrike]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

3: Novaing, It needs addressed and ended, I don't care how, no points , max points per power per level, a prancing pixie keeping score. Does not matter as long as it is addressed and ended.

I think max points spent per turn would work, but it should be an optional rule. That way those DM's with metagaming players, or those that work around the PC's schedule don't have to worry about the nova-rest cycle destroying immersion. From what I gathered from the mega-post this type of playstyle or the DM's that run only a small amount of combats per day had this issue.

When the PC's react to the world, and not the other way around Nova'ing can cause you to be useless and bored. It also makes encounters harder because you don't have the power needed to really contribute so you have to be careful with your PP spending.

Another option is to have to make a concentration check after so many power points are spent in one round depending on your level. If you nova, but fail the concentration check the power fizzles, and the power points are still spent. It gives players something to think about, but those that don't nova won't have to deal with it.

[Stormhierta]

If you guys would like to help us playtest our Core Psionics rules for Pathfinder, we'd love your input at ]Dreamscarredpress!

Please swing by! :D

[Matthew Morris]

Epic Meepo wrote:

I... Am amazed by how much I actually agree with the OP.

Powers that are re-skinned Core spells should just be replaced by Core spells.

Except to keep the PP system, they manifest differently, plus they're in a different book. It always made it easier for me to just keep the XPH at hand as a player (no one else was using it).

Epic Meepo wrote:

There should be some way to disrupt manifesting. (Not necessarily V and S components, but something.)

They draw AoO as normal, they can be readied against... Other than counterspell, how are they different to disrupt than Arcane/Divine magic? Not Sarcasm, just wondering if I missed something.

Epic Meepo wrote:

And all of the stupid nova loopholes should be closed.

That's a DMing thing. I and my fellow DM in the group were evil enough that you if you went Nova, you'd find yourself having one more encounter you're not prepared for.*

Epic Meepo wrote:

Plus, I'll add that the rules should make it 100% clear that psionics and magic absolutely do effect one another.

That's the default. If anything the psion got the fuzzy end of the lolipop since there were powers that affected only psionics. (I'd have killed for an arcane affecting Catapsi, for example)

Epic Meepo wrote:

As an aside, I feel that the approach being taken in this thread is orders of magnitude more productive than the endless challenges and posturing about what can and cannot possibly fit in this or that product line.

Hopefully I didn't derail that ;-)

*

Spoiler:

That's one reason I love the Psychic Warrior, Battle Sorcerer, Mageblade and my own Arcane Legionary. "Crap! We're out of high level spells!" *draws sword, casts shield/manifests force screen* "Well, time for plan B then."

[LazarX]

ProfessorCirno wrote:

Disagree. Psionics are classified first and foremost as "psychic powers" and, I'd love to hear those book and tv examples of gestures and words needed to use them.

Deryni books by Katherine Kurtz. Pretty much anything beyond the basics used implements and rituals and invocations, some of them very involved.

[Berik]

Personally I'd like psionics to use the same system as the magic already in the Core Rulebook. The different system creates an extra barrier for using psionics and I'd prefer a Psion equivalent to simply be a variant Sorceror or Wizard. That way anybody who wants to simply have a wide selection of psionic related powers doesn't need to know any new rules, they just play a psionic-specialised Wizard.

I'm not suggesting that the power points system needs to be done away with completely. I'm not terribly interested in it these days, but I've used it at various times in the past and know that a lot of people like it as an alternate magic system. So I'd suggest making it as a complete alternate magic system, including rules for power point variant Wizards, Clerics, etc, along with maybe some new classes.

I think that decoupling psionics from the power point system as above would make it much easier for fans of either to work with. If you want psionic abilities but don't want to use a different system then just use the specialist Wizard. If you don't like psionics flavour but you like power points then implement it as an alternate system. If you want psionics to be different make the psionic Wizard use power points in your game while other casters use the default system. Seems to me that it would give the best of both worlds...

[ProfessorCirno]

Berik wrote:

I think that decoupling psionics from the power point system as above would make it much easier for fans of either to work with. If you want psionic abilities but don't want to use a different system then just use the specialist Wizard. If you don't like psionics flavour but you like power points then implement it as an alternate system. If you want psionics to be different make the psionic Wizard use power points in your game while other casters use the default system. Seems to me that it would give the best of both worlds...

I think the big flaw - and the ones that lose in this situation - is that I feel that many fans of psionic flavor also prefers non-Vancian casting.

[Berik]

Granted, but I don't think that those who like psionics flavour and the current mechanics need to be left out under the structure I'm suggesting. Ideally a large chunk of the book containing the alternate power point system would be similar to the 3.5 Psionics system, but further expanded to allow the system to replace magic in general.

The idea would be that if you only use the power point rules for the Psion specialist wizard then you'd end up much in the same situation as in 3.5E. With the added advantage that the book also contains non-Vancian rules for the other magic using classes too, so you could use it to totally eliminate Vancian magic from the game if desired.

If the book was also able to include some guidelines for switching a caster from Vancian to non-Vancian then that might also help with the complaint of using psionics in an AP...

[Wolfthulhu]

ProfessorCirno wrote:

Berik wrote:

I think that decoupling psionics from the power point system as above would make it much easier for fans of either to work with. If you want psionic abilities but don't want to use a different system then just use the specialist Wizard. If you don't like psionics flavour but you like power points then implement it as an alternate system. If you want psionics to be different make the psionic Wizard use power points in your game while other casters use the default system. Seems to me that it would give the best of both worlds...

I think the big flaw - and the ones that lose in this situation - is that I feel that many fans of psionic flavor also prefers non-Vancian casting.

I must be a freak. I like Vancian magic just fine and prefer Power Points for psionics.

[Wolfthulhu]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

ProfessorCirno wrote:

Psionics are classified first and foremost as "psychic powers" and, I'd love to hear those book and tv examples of gestures and words needed to use them.

Was not gonna respond to this, but as a few of ya have brought it up

"These are not the droids you are looking for" is the one most people know. Alot of mental powers in books/TV involve you talking to your subject "Yes you want to do that, No you did not see me" or wave hands to make folks forget along with talking And so on

Gestures are very common, pointing your hand, using motions to hurl objects holding your hand to you temple are all very common troupes.

All these action would count as V or S in pathfinder and could be stopped, gag you or tie ya up so ya cant foucse on a spot with your hands to direct your mental power.

All in all they are common used troupes

ProfessorCirno wrote:

Those aren't somatic gestures though.

They aren't somatic gestures, they are visual cues to the audience. "These aren't the droids you're looking for", without the hand moving leaves the viewer confused. "What just happened"? With the hand movement you know that the old hermit was doing more than just speaking words. For that matter, outside of a visual medium like film or TV, even the spoken words would be unnecessary. The old man can just place the thought directly in the soldiers mind. And in most written worlds that aren't movie adaptations, that's exactly what a psychic does.

Otherwise, Magic and psychic powers should interact with each other. I hate this from a flavor standpoint, but mechanically and for balance, it needs to be so.

Nova-cap. Meh, I'm ok with it but think it should be breakable, for a price. Perhaps for a mental fatigue or exhaustion like condition.

[ProfessorCirno]

Wolfthulhu wrote:

ProfessorCirno wrote:

Berik wrote:

I think that decoupling psionics from the power point system as above would make it much easier for fans of either to work with. If you want psionic abilities but don't want to use a different system then just use the specialist Wizard. If you don't like psionics flavour but you like power points then implement it as an alternate system. If you want psionics to be different make the psionic Wizard use power points in your game while other casters use the default system. Seems to me that it would give the best of both worlds...

I think the big flaw - and the ones that lose in this situation - is that I feel that many fans of psionic flavor also prefers non-Vancian casting.

I must be a freak. I like Vancian magic just fine and prefer Power Points for psionics.

That's more or less what I mean ;p

Most psionics fans - granted, limited only to what I've seen on the internet and real life - are also those who would rather psionics have a separate style of casting that isn't Vancian.

[Wolfthulhu]

ProfessorCirno wrote:

Wolfthulhu wrote:

ProfessorCirno wrote:

Berik wrote:

I think that decoupling psionics from the power point system as above would make it much easier for fans of either to work with. If you want psionic abilities but don't want to use a different system then just use the specialist Wizard. If you don't like psionics flavour but you like power points then implement it as an alternate system. If you want psionics to be different make the psionic Wizard use power points in your game while other casters use the default system. Seems to me that it would give the best of both worlds...

I think the big flaw - and the ones that lose in this situation - is that I feel that many fans of psionic flavor also prefers non-Vancian casting.

I must be a freak. I like Vancian magic just fine and prefer Power Points for psionics.

That's more or less what I mean ;p

Most psionics fans - granted, limited only to what I've seen on the internet and real life - are also those who would rather psionics have a separate style of casting that isn't Vancian.

Ah. I thought you meant PP fans were the kind who wanted to do away with Vancian magic. I gotcha now, though.