You could also upend the bag as a move action while casting greater dispelling on all the shrunken items as they fall with your standard action.
In any event, I'm not entirely convinced that a "word of command" on a spell item is anything like the command word of a magic item.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Right. The assumption is that they fail initial saves vs both spells. Considering the Saves or most monsters you fight at level 5 when you can use this tactic, they probably won't make those saves.As for other winning tactics, here are some more:
--Web + Stinking Cloud. The first removes your ability to move unless you take actions, and the other removes all your actions except moves. Win!
"Anyone moving through the webs must make a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check as part of their move action, with a DC equal to the spell's DC (not that high for a 2nd level spell). Creatures that fail lose their movement and become grappled in their first square of webbing that they enter."
The stipulation that you have to make a regular CMB check or Escape Artist as a standard action only applies if you fail your initial save vs. web.
I agree with you, it is a good tactic, as long as the enemy fails the first save, and there are plenty of low-level enemies with bad Ref saves. The problem is that those with bad Ref usually also have good CMB, and the web isn't very big. Even a creature immediately adjacent to the center point of the web only has to walk 15 feet to get to the edge. Any creature not at the dead center of the spell can easily walk right out with a single move action following a successful CMB.
The problem is that your targets don't get 2 saves vs. the tactic, they really get 3, because of the CMB check to break free, and that is the pseudo-save that actually gives them their best chance, because it compensates for their worst save; it's a second chance mechanic that, for the purposes of escaping the web, lets them obviate the fact that they missed the initial save.
You're a 6th level wizard with maxed out INT of 21 (18 base, +2 race, +1 level), so your save DC for web is 17. If you were really going for the gusto, you could have SF and GSF (conjuration) and have just cast fox's cunning on yourself to boost it to 21.
Orc (CR 1/3) Ref +0, CMB +4, speed 30.
Ogre (CR 3) Ref +0, CMB +9, speed 40 (30 in armor).
Hill giant (CR 7) Ref +2, CMB +15, speed 40 (30).
Three iconic big, dumb, slow bruisers. All of them are highly likely to fail their opening Ref save. However, on their turn, before you get to act and cast your follow-up stinking cloudspell, they get to take a standard action to break free using CMB vs. the DC of your spell.
An ordinary orc, a mile below your APL, has a 40% chance to free itself (20% if you are max-buffed for conjurations).
An ogre, still running at half your APL, has a 65%/45% chance to break free.
A hill giant, a slightly tough but level-appropriate foe for your party, has a 95%/75% chance to break free on its turn, before you go.
If they break free, they still have a move action (moving across difficult terrain), which can get them to any edge of the web (if they were at the dead center of it), or out of the web (if they were anywhere else). Once they have broken free, they only have to make a new CMB/EA check to avoid losing their movement "and becom(ing) grappled in the first square of webbing that they enter." They don't get automatically re-stuck if they are still inside the web. It also means that, having broken out after the initial FAILED saving throw, once they get to the edge square of the web, they can step right out on their next move.
Say they roll crummy on their roll to break free and they're still stuck and you DO get off the stinking cloud. The problem here is that you are running into reverse MAD. Creatures with bad Ref saves usually have GOOD Fort saves. To wit:
Orc: Ref +0, Fort +3
Ogre: Ref +0, Fort +6
Hill giant: Ref +2, Fort +11
The orc, of course, is still in big trouble, which he should be. You should be curb-stomping orc mooks at 6th level. He still has a 30%/10% chance to avoid the SC for the first round (which is the only one that matters, since it lets him exit the cloud without any lingering effects).
The ogre has a 45% chance to save (25% if maxed out). The hill giant, a 70%/50% chance to avoid the SC.
Even if they fail vs. the SC, if they are on the edge of the web they can just keep moving out of it.
Realistically, the monsters don't need to save vs. all three. They can escape even if they just make 1, but they can escape unharmed if they make 2.
You are taking 2 rounds of actions on a task that will severely impair low-grade mooks, have a 50/50 chance of getting tougher but still below your pay grade mooks, and very little chance of actually trapping a level-appropriate monster EVEN THOUGH HE HAS A CRAPPY REF SAVE.
So it's two spells for a "kill every monster in this battle without any cost beyond the two spells" since the Web will most likely keep them locked down long enough get the Stinking Cloud off. I've killed CR 9 dragons at level 6 with this tactic, so I am quite happy with it as a tactic.
A dragon is actually the hardest possible monster to pull this trick off with, first and foremost because of its movement. As in, most of the time, it's going to be flying, and not really availing itself of the kind of close quarters needed to attach a web spell. A dragon in open space can't get webbed at all.
The second problem is they have all good saves; a CR 9 dragon has a Ref save in the 8-10 range, meaning it has around a 50/50 chance of making its save. Even if it fails its save, its CMD is around 15-16, meaning its standard action to escape the webs is close to automatic, and its movement rate is so high that it can escape from the web's AoE with impunity.
Take a young bronze, Ref +8, CMB +16, Fort +10. Vs. your normal DC of 17, you have almost zero chance of holding it in place long enough to get the SC spell off. You only have a 40% chance of a failed Ref save, and he only fails his CMB check on a natural 1, so that'd be a 2% chance of success. His land speed is 40 and his fly speed is 150, so either way zoom and he's out of there with a move action in spite of the difficult terrain.
If you are maxed out to DC 21, he now has a 60% chance to fail his Ref save and a 20% chance to fail his CMB check, so you're up to a 12% chance to hold him down long enough to get another spell off. You drop the SC on him, which he has a 50% chance to save against, so a total 6% chance of success for the tactic.
Obviously, it can be done. You did it in your campaign, so congrats! I would simply submit that it was more likely a result of poor dice rolling by the dragon than it being a particularly viable strategy, especially for dragon-hunting.
BEST CASE SCENARIO
Even if this tactic works perfectly and you trap creatures inside the web and the SC and they are TOTALLY BONED, remember that they get cover AND concealment from you. They aren't killed. They aren't even injured. You can't target them with effects because you have no LOS. You try to attack the squares you think they're in (assuming they didn't move before getting stuck and/or use stealth, since they had cover from you - usually not a big risk, but some creatures are better sneakers than others), but you have a 50% miss chance. The cover bonuses to AC and saves are offset by the grappled condition, but if there is 20 feet of web between you, they have total cover from you and can't be hurt by anything you throw at them.
Your allies can't target them either. You can't send anyone in after them to go slit their throats because then THEY would get stuck in the web and nauseated by the SC. The SC doesn't last very long, so if you dilly dally in finding some way to kill them when you can't see them and can't target them, they'll get un-nauseated and be able to free themselves.
Really, the best outcome for you is that they are stuck by the Ref save, make their first CMB check but can only move to 10 feet from the web's edge, then on their next turn they move forward 5 feet (so now they're in the edge of the web and THEN fail their CMB so they're stuck where you can see them (only 20% miss chance from the SC, no cover). That pretty much only works if they are stuck at the middle of the web and have a 20-foot speed. Any faster than that, and they'll be at the web's edge on round 1 and able to step out in round 2).
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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You could also upend the bag as a move action while casting greater dispelling on all the shrunken items as they fall with your standard action.
It could work, sure, but it subjects you to DM screwage over how far the rocks drop in between when you drop them and when you finish your spell. It also lets the DM mess with you with things like wind effect or scatter of falling plushies that might spread over a wider area.
The importance is that I think the point of the tactic is to drop a giant bomb-load on one specific spot. I don't think anyone would argue that rocks would fall straight down. 18d6 or 36d6 or 72d6 whatever sounds like a lot when it all hits the SAME 5'-foot square. It doesn't sound like as much when it spreads over a one 5-foot square and the ring of 8 squares around it and does a whopping 2d6/4d6/8d6 (DC 15 save for half) to each of those 9 squares.
The point of having a bomb-carrier is that then you control exactly where they'll be when they drop. The height at which they become rocks instead of plushies is relevant for the point of how much damage they do.
In any event, I'm not entirely convinced that a "word of command" on a spell item is anything like the command word of a magic item.
You could be right, about both that and it counting as "dismissing a spell effect" - the spell's duration does NOT have the (D) notation; it simply provides an in-text method of getting rid of the spell. If you decide that's not the same thing as dismissing a spell, or that this word of command is different from the word of command you use to activate a magic item, that's your call as the DM to make.
You could also simply appeal to rationality, in the notion that B-17 rock-dropping wizards touching and activating a big pile of rocks are inherently silly, but that's a matter of taste and if that's the way the group rocks then by all means have fun with it.
I agree with you, it is a good tactic, as long as the enemy fails the first save, and there are plenty of low-level enemies with bad Ref saves. The problem is that those with bad Ref usually also have good CMB, and the web isn't very big. Even a creature immediately adjacent to the center point of the web only has to walk 15 feet to get to the edge. Any creature not at the dead center of the spell can easily walk right out with a single move action following a successful CMB.Right. The assumption is that they fail initial saves vs both spells. Considering the Saves or most monsters you fight at level 5 when you can use this tactic, they probably won't make those saves.As for other winning tactics, here are some more:
--Web + Stinking Cloud. The first removes your ability to move unless you take actions, and the other removes all your actions except moves. Win!
"Anyone moving through the webs must make a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check as part of their move action, with a DC equal to the spell's DC (not that high for a 2nd level spell). Creatures that fail lose their movement and become grappled in their first square of webbing that they enter."
The stipulation that you have to make a regular CMB check or Escape Artist as a standard action only applies if you fail your initial save vs. web.
On my Dragon example, we got a surprise round.
The DM had forbidden clerics so we forced everyone in the party to max out Sneak and Hide and played the game like Shadowrun. We even had those two potions that add to Sneak and Hide in generous supply.
So it went:
Surprise round: Cast Web
1st round: Stinking Cloud
Round 2+: kill dragon from reach/ranged.
At higher levels, you'd just Quicken Web and get it done in one round.
It could work, sure, but it subjects you to DM screwage over how far the rocks drop in between when you drop them and when you finish your spell.
That's what readied actions are for. I ready a action to cast greater dispelling when I upend the pouch and the rocks fall out.
It could work, sure, but it subjects you to DM screwage over how far the rocks drop in between when you drop them and when you finish your spell.That's what readied actions are for. I ready a action to cast greater dispelling when I upend the pouch and the rocks fall out.
From PRD:
ReadyThe ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
Readying an action only allows you to do one action, not two. Upending the pouch is at best a free action.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I suggest you read the spell:Two notes:
1. People keep talking about the limits of Shrink Item like you can only use one of them at a time. There is nothing stopping you from dropping dozens of objects made into plush by Shrink Item in a single round by upending a bag of them. (As an aside, there is a Transmute Water to Acid spell that is perfect for making large piles of acid, but even Minor Creation can do it too by making plant-based digestive enymes like Venus flytraps possess or that DnD plant monsters have).
I mean, Shrink Item has a duration in days and Rods of Minor Extend are dead cheap. There is no reason why you can't fly over someone and drop two dozen rocks for 3d6 each in a single round (72d6 anyone?).
Sure, you can have lots of shrunken plushies. The limit is not on carrying them, it's on activation.
You can activate one shrunken item at a time with a command word. That means you can drop one item at a time with that method.
I did, as you are aware.
Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster.Since you can return them to normal size by tossing them, you can drop rains of boulders by emptying bags onto a cutting board
Object =/= solid surface.
or your other hand
Creature =/= solid surface.
while you fly around (they then fall from your hands, and onto enemies).
Try this experiment: Go to your local Goodwill and grab yourself a shopping bag or pillowcase full of beanie babies. Then dump them out with one hand, trying to hit your other hand. See how many actually hit your hand and how many fall on the floor without ever touching you.
Now bag them up again and try dumping them out over a Monopoly board and see how many actually hit the board and how many hit other beanie babies before they fall, over the edge. Also, try to imagine if the very first beanie baby that dropped turned into a sack of bowling balls and whether you think you'd be able to hold the monopoly board flat so that they'd all hit it.
What would happen is the first one would hit, turn big and heavy, and probably knock the monopoly board out of your hand, or (best case scenario) flip it vertically downward, while the other beanie babies cascade past the board, which has now been knocked out of the way, and land on the floor below in plushie form, then turning back to normal.
Or, you could try and be careful about it, and you certainly drop 1 or maybe even a couple of them onto your hand/board, recovering your surface in time. But that doesn't really achieve the desired "rain of boulders" effect.
What you COULD do is use stone shape to set up a slanted wall section made of stone, where you dropped the plushies down onto it and let them turn big, then slide down the ramp/slanted wall to fall on people underneath. A lot harder to target precisely, true, but absolutely legal.
Heck, you could could just bury people alive by simply emptying out the plushies and having them turn back into rocks when they hit the ground/enemy. Suffocation damage and cave-in mechanics are brutal.
They are indeed. However, the volume required to achieve the effect of a cave-in is staggering. To fill one 10-foot cube of with rocks would require a 10th level wizard to maintain FIFTY shrunken item rocks. The duration is only 10 days, 20 with an extend rod, so you'll need to be blowing 2.5 3rd level spells EVERY DAY just to maintain your arsenal.
That's 50 3rd level spells to achieve an effect that inflicts 8d6 damage with a DC 15 Reflex save for half if the DM rules it counts as a "bury zone," 3d6 save for half if it's a "slide zone." Since slide zones themselves are listed as typically being 10-feet wide, that would suggest to even HAVE a bury zone, you would probably need 10 feet of slide zones, probably at half the height of the bury zone.
So you need a ring of 20 5-foot cubes (2500 cubic feet to model the slide zone, plus one 10-foot cube for our bury zone (1000 cubic feet). A 10th level wizard would need to maintain 175 SI spells to have enough rock to achieve a bury zone capable of simulating a cave-in. Even with 3 lesser extend metamagic rods, you'd be burning up 9 3rd level spells EVERY DAY to keep your instant avalanche on hand.
The word of command probably doesn't work like magic item activation, but luckily it doesn't matter at all.
Eh, maybe, maybe not. Even if you are correct and you can activate them by dropping them on your hand or a cutting board, the hit rate of actually getting them to hit that "trigger object" is going to be pretty low, and plushies that fall on people underneath (again, assuming your interpretation that creatures are surfaces), they are hit by falling plushies, which THEN turn into rocks, so falling object damage is going to be minimized.
As for liquids, you can put them into a container for shrinking. It's not even a problem, and if you have enough you get total immersion which counts for 10d6 damage if its acid, unless it's lava which gets to 20d6 for...
Oh, it's not a big problem to GET the liquid into a container. The problem is:
1. Containers that don't turn into containers until after they're on the ground aren't going to break and release their dangerous contents. You could plushify open buckets and hope they land on their sides, and they might, but they might not.
2. As soon as the first object hits the ground and covers the floor in a thin layer of acid, every plushie that falls from then on out will be instantly destroyed BEFORE IT HITS THE SOLID SURFACE BENEATH THE LIQUID ACID/LAVA, because each little plushie has hardness 0 and 1 hit point, and each takes 1d6 points of acid damage/2d6 on contact. poof no more plushies, they are destroyed before they have a chance to turn back.
So, you are going to have significant plushie attrition unless you are able to make sure that every one deplushifies before it hits the ground. That might be a little dangerous if you are planning on dumping those on your hand. I would not recommend that as a strategy. Every one that happens to land upside down or sideways when it poofs back is going to dump its acid/lava ON YOU on the way down to the ground.
3. Total immersion requires two things:
a. Requisite volume (over a dozen SI spells at 5th level per 5-foot cube).
b. A secondary container to prevent the acid/lava from just flowing away.
Dump a bucket of water out of your window. Does it stay in a bucket-shaped mass when it hits the ground? Nope. It flows away.
For the immersion tactic to work, you need a lot of plushies, but you also need to make sure that your targets are already inside of a pit, one that is big enough to hold them but small enough that you can legitimately fill it with plush. The bare minimum is a 5-foot pit, but a typical character at this level can climb or jump out of that with a trivial check, so you need to be ready to drop as soon as they hit the pit. What you really need is a create pit spell, or a conveniently placed deep pit, but still only a 5-foot cube at the bottom (yeah, that restricts your immersion to Medium or smaller creatures, but the sheer amount of acid you need to immerse a Large creature is pretty harsh - 50 SI spells for a 10th level wizard).
You could also argue that the IMMERSION needs to be for 1 full round to get the 10d6 (or 20d6 for lava). As in, if they fall in the pit, you drop enough acid to immerse them, but they get OUT OF THE PIT before 1 round passes, then it just counts as exposure for 1 round, 1d6 damage. Falling objects, regrettably, are not an attack, so they don't get the special exemption for "an attack = 1 round of exposure." If you THROW the plushie acid/lava, then it does count as an attack, but then it also means you have to make ranged touch attacks to hit with them, which limits the number you can throw/drop per round based on your BAB and whether you have Quick Draw, since they are thrown weapons.
contact poison
Contact poison can be nasty, but all of the plant-based contact poisons have an onset time of 1 minute. That might very well mean they'll end up dead or at least badly hurt by the poison, but not before they can attempt to rearrange your vital organs in a manner most unpleasant.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I agree with you, it is a good tactic, as long as the enemy fails the first save, and there are plenty of low-level enemies with bad Ref saves. The problem is that those with bad Ref usually also have good CMB, and the web isn't very big. Even a creature immediately adjacent to the center point of the web only has to walk 15 feet to get to the edge. Any creature not at the dead center of the spell can easily walk right out with a single move action following a successful CMB.Right. The assumption is that they fail initial saves vs both spells. Considering the Saves or most monsters you fight at level 5 when you can use this tactic, they probably won't make those saves.As for other winning tactics, here are some more:
--Web + Stinking Cloud. The first removes your ability to move unless you take actions, and the other removes all your actions except moves. Win!
"Anyone moving through the webs must make a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check as part of their move action, with a DC equal to the spell's DC (not that high for a 2nd level spell). Creatures that fail lose their movement and become grappled in their first square of webbing that they enter."
The stipulation that you have to make a regular CMB check or Escape Artist as a standard action only applies if you fail your initial save vs. web.
On my Dragon example, we got a surprise round.
The DM had forbidden clerics so we forced everyone in the party to max out Sneak and Hide and played the game like Shadowrun. We even had those two potions that add to Sneak and Hide in generous supply.
Presumably zee dragon did not have zee blindsense in this campaign then (which is normally continuous and makes concealment irrelevant).
So it went:
Surprise round: Cast Web
1st round: Stinking Cloud
Round 2+: kill dragon from reach/ranged.
Round 2+ is the tricky one. Did you manage to catch it in the edge of the web and the edge of the SC? A dangerous tactic, because it makes escape almost automatic if any part of the plan fails.
If it had been trapped on the inside of the web and SC, the concealment effect would be brutal on trying to finish it off. At 6th level, even if someone has Blind-fight it's no good because that only works in melee, which would only work if you caught it on the edge.
Still, good job!
At higher levels, you'd just Quicken Web and get it done in one round.
At higher levels, like the minimum 11th level you'd need to be to cast a quickened web, I'd hope you could curb-stomp a CR 9 dragon, but this tactic still is an iffy proposition. Your INT is now 22, 26 with your constant +4 Int item that you have by this time, so DC is 20, 22 with SF/GSF(conj).
Assuming the dragon has no buffs or items, 55%/65% chance to fail save vs. web and 45/55% vs. SC, or an overall 24.75%/35.75% chance to get him with the double-dip that screws him. A 1 in 4 chance, 1 in 3 if you are a specialized conjurer. If the SC fails, he's got only a 15/25% chance of remaining trapped.
Better than before, definitely, as it should be; the sample wizard is 5 levels higher against the same opponent, but hardly an auto-win strategy.
From PRD:
ReadyThe ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
Readying an action only allows you to do one action, not two. Upending the pouch is at best a free action.
I'm well aware.
My turn starts. I ready an action to cast greater dispelling when I dump the bag (standard action). I then dump the bag (likely a move action). Ready action goes off as I dump the bag.
I've only used the appropriate number of actions granted me.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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By the way, with all of the wall-of-text posts on the subject, I should make a quick note that I don't think the concept of weaponizing shrink item is wrongbadfun. I think that there are rational limits within the rules on how you can use it, and I think those are often ignored or handwaved. Shoot, even the idea that every item you drop will go straight down, that they will not bounce off of each other or scatter at all into adjacent squares.
Even if every part of the easy-to-use SI-bomb plan works flawlessly as I think K would argue, it's still an enormously resource-intensive strategy that gives you a one-time bomb drop. Spell slots are only a free resource when you're not adventuring, so there's really no way to recharge it. I don't think it's criminally imbalanced; I just like to apply the rules that exist.
Presumably zee dragon did not have zee blindsense in this campaign then (which is normally continuous and makes concealment irrelevant).
The range on Blindsense is 60'. The range on both Web and Stinking Cloud is much farther than that.
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As for Shrink Item, if you are going to argue that creatures and objects are not solid, or don't have surfaces, or don't have solid surfaces, then I think I have to assume you are trolling me now because you can't be arguing in good faith.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.
From PRD:
ReadyThe ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
Readying an action only allows you to do one action, not two. Upending the pouch is at best a free action.
I'm well aware.
My turn starts. I ready an action to cast greater dispelling when I dump the bag (standard action). I then dump the bag (likely a move action). Ready action goes off as I dump the bag.
I've only used the appropriate number of actions granted me.
I was always under the impression that the ready action somehow took away your other actions(other than the one specified), but I thought about what would happen if you took a the move action , and then readied an action.
You may have a point here.
I was always under the impression that the ready action somehow took away your other actions(other than the one specified), but I thought about what would happen if you took a the move action , and then readied an action.
You may have a point here.
You wouldn't be the first. I played for YEARS where I gave up my move action (and other actions) for no good reason whenever I readied an action.
It wasn't until I came to these forums that I too was shown the light.
:P
You may have a point here.
No, he doesn't.
While it is true that readying an action is a standard action, thus allowing you take a move action and readying an action in the same turn, you cannot provide the triggering condition yourself on your following turn.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later,
after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
Also...
You can ready a standard action,
a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so,
specify the action you will take and the conditions under
which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next
action, you may take the readied action in response to
that condition.
And finally...
If you come to your
next action and have not yet performed your
readied action, you don’t get to take the
readied action....
Also note that readying an action changes your initiative count, so it is impossible to take a readied action and your normal turn in the same round, although most DMs, myself included, ignore this rule.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Presumably zee dragon did not have zee blindsense in this campaign then (which is normally continuous and makes concealment irrelevant).
The range on Blindsense is 60'. The range on both Web and Stinking Cloud is much farther than that.
-----------------------------------
Nicely done.
As for Shrink Item, if you are going to argue that creatures and objects are not solid, or don't have surfaces, or don't have solid surfaces, then I think I have to assume you are trolling me now because you can't be arguing in good faith.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing in reverse, given that you seem to ignore the 75% of the above posts that posited any number of complications that would ensue even if we assume that YOU ARE RIGHT and that it is absolutely legal and possible to dump plushies on your hand/monopoly board and turn them into bomminators.
The question is whether "a solid surface" is an open-ended term that refers to anything solid (which will have a surface) or if "a solid surface" is a specific-meaning term, referring to something approximating a wall or floor. I don't think that's an irrational question to ask. I believe one of the teleportation spells requires you to end up on a "solid surface" (or maybe that was a previous edition), which I would take to mean a floor or wall. You wouldn't that's fine.
As you say:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.
The point was that, even granting that your version of "solid surface" is 100% correct, applicable, and appropriate... using SI bombing (whether with rocks, lava, acid, or contact poison) as an "I win" strategy is a great deal less effective and more resource-intensive to use - i.e., far less bang for your buck - than might otherwise be assumed.
Those points you haven't addressed, nor do you have any obligation to do so. I don't troll anyone, but I do rise to the bait of a spirited conversation every now and then. For now, though, I probably need to embargo myself from the boards tomorrow to get done a bunch of end-of-the-month work; Heaven knows I blew way too much time here today.
To all, good night, good luck, and good gaming. :)
No, he doesn't.
(Follows up with lots of solid research.)
Most interesting.
The point was that, even granting that your version of "solid surface" is 100% correct, applicable, and appropriate... using SI bombing (whether with rocks, lava, acid, or contact poison) as an "I win" strategy is a great deal less effective and more resource-intensive to use - i.e., far less bang for your buck - than might otherwise be assumed.
Resource-intensive doesn't really matter because you are using surplus spell slots at the end of the day to build your bag of rocks.
I mean, if you know that it is going to take a week to get to the manticore's aerie, you can cast Shrink Item every day before you go to bed. Then on Day 8 when you get to the adventure you not only have full slots but a way to win an encounter that costs you none of today's slots.
I mean, the Wizard lives in the world of the Rope Trick and the Magnificient Mansion, so it's not like he gets attacked in the middle of the night past level 3 so those spell slots won't do him any good while he is asleep and getting tomorrow's allotment of slots. You might even burn a few slots in encounters during the trek there, but that only cuts into your pile of rocks that you use on Day 8.
As for effectiveness, the rules are pretty clear on how to handle trying to drop objects on people:
Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet. If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object.
That's the whole set there. There are no rules about grenade-like distributions or even taking actions to do it (though dropping anything is a basic Free Action in the Combat rules). I'd granting that smashing a bag of Shrink Items objects against something is probably a Standard Action, but then it'd still be a ranged touch attack with a chance for a Reflex for half if the DM decided that the enemy knew about it somehow.
Object sizing rules are also silent on how size interacts with cubic feet. The closter thing I can find is the sample Animated Objects for Paizo lists cages big enough for a skeleton as a Small object(so halfling size), and a Wagon as a Huge Object.
You can run the math at your leisure, but I think you should be able to get Huge objects within the cubic feet minimums pretty easily as long as they are flattish objects and not roundish objects. Clearly, the easy solution of the spell just using the general Size rules like Animated Object spell does was not a fix people imagined.
But based on the rule of cool, I think most DMs will side with a player on this issue. It's basically no different from setting an ambush, but you can do it in a more heroic and less murder-like fashion. Basically it just requires a five minute conversation with your DM, which is no different than the conversation a Wizard has to have with him about charms, illusions, and summoning.
But thanks for the debate. It's been fun.
oooh ooh I want to kill a fighter too, so...its all on the initiative i guess. if wizard( conj or trans specialist) goes first he is hoping the fighter doesn’t rely on ranged weapons primarily. if so better get a tiny hut up fast(total concealment 1 way) or invisibility. no save on the REVERSE GRAVITY that is a must and first thing to do, 13th level min to cast 7th level spells.so 13 rounds of hovering fighter who presumably can’t fly. Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt and give him dr5/- for adamantium… then the reverse gravity goes away and he drops, and since we stacked all the 10ftcubes per level on top of each other(reverse grav)...he should be 130ft up. So 13d6, about 45 points, 40 if you let him use his dr on falling damage. Anyway…that gives us 11ish rounds to finish him, hmm… spiked pit under his falling area…hehe..just to add a cherry to the whole falling thing. For another 6d6 falling +2d6 spike damage. For 23ish more damage…some people would suggest putting a wall of stone or iron over the pit at this point, but im not sure what kind of squeeze damage that would do, I would say conservatively that it would be the same as a falling wall of iron. I don’t think I would go this route because I’m trying to stay with stated game effects and I would like to kill him off while in the air if possible.( the pit thing would technically allow a save to keep from falling in, even though It doesn’t make sense). In the interim while he’s pretending he just drank wonkas fizzy lifting drink , say round three, let’s send up something to start dinking him, like a shadow demon(monster summ 7), I chose him because his attacks ignore armor, and he is incorporeal so our fighter can’t push off to get out of the reverse gravity field. Round 4, the shadow forms and attacks, mage casts fly, round 5 shadow continues attacking (hopefully not destroyed yet) mage casts greater invisibility and leaves the hut, round 6 fighter may or may not notice the hut disappeared, hopefully still distracted by the shadow demon, mage casts enervation( have to get within 55ft), probably hits(ranged touch, and he loses dex bonus because the attacker has total concealment even with blind fight) no save, 1d4 negative levels and corresponding hp loss. Round 7, 8, 9 more enervation. Total 4d4 negative levels with corresponding hp loss(50), and penalties (avg:-10 levels,-10 on ability checks, attack rolls, cmb, cmd, skill checks(climbing) and most importantly saves.) Up until this point we have not relied on saves at all. but with a -10 it is very likely that we will be able to easily finish the fighter off in the remaining two or three rounds before the reverse gravity wears off. This example assumed that neither party possessed any magic items, that the fighter was just mundanely equipped and so was the mage. Unfortunately, if the fighter goes first, and say he is a ranged build, at 20th level with no magic items, he can put 126ish average points of damage on our wizard with no prep, just a composite longbow built for his strength. But in this example the mage is only 13th level. Without terrain advantage, cover, or concealment from the start, I think the mage would be toast. But if the mage gets concealment, or if the fighter is a non- ranged build, the fighter is toast, even at 20th level. Once the saves are dropped, fireballs, lightning bolts or whatever, it shouldn’t take much at this point.
3. Contingency
Often, this spell is overlooked and is used a way to slap a quick buff onto the Wizard in an emergency; however, the spell is much more.One of the easiest solutions is to set a spell that controls the battlefield in some way so that enemies can't harm him. Popping a Resilient Sphere on yourself is an easy way to avoid powerful attacks for a round while you cast buffs or summons.
Walls and resilient sphere can't be cast with contingency. Even though they might effect the wizard themselves indirectly, they don't directly effect a wizard's person. Using your logic, most any spell could be cast via contingency, because most any spell could effect the wizard. Summon Monster, for example. If the wizard ordered the summoned monster not to allow it though its space, then it would effect the wizard's person.
None the less, wizards are still dammed tough.
Resilient Sphere gives the target a Reflex save and a SR save. How could a target get a Spell Resistance check if the spell didn't affect them directly? Compare that to spells that don't give a save or SR check and affect targets indirectly.
By definition, it affects a target (which can be the casting Wizard). That's why the target gets a SR check, and the fact that it targets at all is why it can be put into a Contingency.