When I play a bookish wizard, I want the experience of playing that wizard to feel vastly different than the experience of playing a telekinetic wild talent. If they used the same casting mechanic, they would no longer feel different to me. At that point, unless I'm playing a rules-lite, narrative RPG where fluff is all that matters (not Pathfinder), the rules have failed me.
Clerics and Druids run off of a vancian system yet they always gave me a different feel then Wizards did. Sure there are differences but they do not completely altered the system of spellcasting like a spell point system does.
Rules shouldn't equal a class.
In a recent thread, came out that several people dislike psionics because of the sci-fi flavour (is not the only reason these classes are disliked, see the thread).
This quite surprised me. I alway played psionics like people able to put mind over body.. so psions as yogi, psywarriors as sort of monks and the like.
Another poster pointed out that this is due the fact I used to play with the Oriental Advetures Web Enhancement Mahasarpa (containing, among other things, psionics with indian flavour).
So.. are psionics sci-fi for you? And why? For the crystals fetish? I admit is quite ugly..
Or there are other reasons (name and effects of powers)? Discuss.
Psychics are related to psionics, and they have been written about for years. Nostradamus would be considered psychic to many people as an example. I never got the psionics=sci-fi thing myself.
The crystals are just another reminder of magic to me since they are nothing but a psionic familiar, which is why I don't really care for them.
The crystal thing actually makes me think of the Vahnatai from the Avernum/Exile series, a bizarre and "alien" race that lives deep underground that has a very strong mysticism feel, with a deep set caste system, crystalized souls as mentors and leaders, agile and dexteritous attacking styles, etc, etc.
It's odd, because while some people would say this has a very "sci-fi" feel to it, I would say that's what makes it so fitting for a fantasy setting. Remember, it's supposed to be fantastic. Mysterious. Out of the ordinary. An ancient and long forgotten race with strange and bizarre magical-technical understandings? How could that not fit in fantasy?
The crystal thing actually makes me think of the Vahnatai from the Avernum/Exile series, a bizarre and "alien" race that lives deep underground that has a very strong mysticism feel, with a deep set caste system, crystalized souls as mentors and leaders, agile and dexteritous attacking styles, etc, etc.
It's odd, because while some people would say this has a very "sci-fi" feel to it, I would say that's what makes it so fitting for a fantasy setting. Remember, it's supposed to be fantastic. Mysterious. Out of the ordinary. An ancient and long forgotten race with strange and bizarre magical-technical understandings? How could that not fit in fantasy?
My first thought when I see the crystals are the Eldar from Warhammer 40k.
My first thought when I see the crystals are the Eldar from Warhammer 40k.The crystal thing actually makes me think of the Vahnatai from the Avernum/Exile series, a bizarre and "alien" race that lives deep underground that has a very strong mysticism feel, with a deep set caste system, crystalized souls as mentors and leaders, agile and dexteritous attacking styles, etc, etc.
It's odd, because while some people would say this has a very "sci-fi" feel to it, I would say that's what makes it so fitting for a fantasy setting. Remember, it's supposed to be fantastic. Mysterious. Out of the ordinary. An ancient and long forgotten race with strange and bizarre magical-technical understandings? How could that not fit in fantasy?
My biggest gripe with the "sci-fi" complaint is the same one when people are upset that their fantasy game is too "wahoo."
It's like, I want a magical and mystical and bizarre and strange and wonderful fantasy world, but just don't put anything magical, mystical, bizarre, strange, or wonderful in it.
I saw this a lot whenever discussions of settings come up. Fantasy is by definition the out of the ordinary. Elves and dwarves? That's annoyingly ordinary these days. And yet when people try to get or look at things that are out of the ordinary, "fantasy" fans get upset about it. It's just...bizarre. Fantasy should be the one genre you can't grognard over, since it's so antithetical to the idea behind the genre, but it's the one that's grognarded the most.
Ever since the advent of spontaneous casting, it has made no sense to me that divine casters prepare spells like wizards. That turns them into little more than wizards with better combat ability and better healing. (At least clerics can spontaneously cast cure spells; that breaks them out of the wizard mold at least a little bit.)
The spontaneous-casting oracle is more what I think all divine casters should look like, specifically because that gives them a different magic system and a different feel than the wizard. To me, prepared casting fits the fluff of arcane magic, spontaneous casting fits the fluff of divine magic, and point-based casting fits the fluff of mystical (psionic) magic.
Rules shouldn't equal a class.Crunch and fluff are inextricably linked. In a system that is not rules-lite, the creation of fluff is meaningless if there are no rules to support it, and there is no rule written that doesn't favor one flavor of fluff over another.
Clerics and Druids prep I can see as being thematically different though even though the system is the same for spell prep. One prays and the other studies, I can see this thematically and I'm perfectly happy with it. I don't like Oracles as I see them as divine sorcerers but I like the Witch because I dig the thematic of getting their spells from their spells from their familiar. I'm not going to Oracle from play (unless I ban all the APG classes from a game) or give a Witch a system that I like better though.
I can see a SPS working for all types of magic and working thematically. If you're dead set on having a SPS for psychics, why not all spontaneous casters then? this seems more up their alley thematically if you're running both vancian and SPS. If you allow spontaneous casters to have the SPS but not those who have to prep, well that just seems unfair to me. If every one has a SPS then, at this point, a Wizard is still a Wizard, a Cleric is still a Cleric, but if a Psion's main signiture is the SPS, what are they?
I want psions to be able to stand out no matter what system they have and in 3.X they just said wizard that uses a point system. So, to me, the fluff didn't come close to the rules in 3.X and thats why I think that the rules made the psion in that edition.
My biggest gripe with the "sci-fi" complaint is the same one when people are upset that their fantasy game is too "wahoo."
It's like, I want a magical and mystical and bizarre and strange and wonderful fantasy world, but just don't put anything magical, mystical, bizarre, strange, or wonderful in it.
I saw this a lot whenever discussions of settings come up. Fantasy is by definition the out of the ordinary. Elves and dwarves? That's annoyingly ordinary these days. And yet when people try to get or look at things that are out of the ordinary, "fantasy" fans get upset about it. It's just...bizarre. Fantasy should be the one genre you can't grognard over, since it's so antithetical to the idea behind the genre, but it's the one that's grognarded the most.
Gotta agree with you here. I can understand where people might not want to see "I just saw Avatar so I'm dropping Navi into Forgotten Realms". Still the fantasy MUST EQUAL X OR HULK SMASH is the opposite end of the spectrum.
I remember a game were some one got really upset because some of my friends and I played Halflings to frightening effectiveness (prompting a rule of no more then two halfling characters per game) and this other player started freaking out that Halflings are supposed to be the comic relief essentially and not effective.
You can take a refluffed sorcerer if you want to, but you will have a hard time finding a player who loved the 3.5 psionics system willing to call it a good replacement for their character - not impossible, but most will say "meh" and shrug and not bother. How do you resolve the psychic warrior, or the wilder, or the soulknife this way?
You can easily reflavor a Ranger (or even a Paladin) as a Psychic Warrior. A Rogue with a summonable weapon is an easy standin for a Soulknife, as they already have the same bonuses to damage, just a different set of conditions to apply them. Wilder is already pretty close in flavor to the Sorcerer.
If you want a cross-genre game, there's several out there - TORG, Rifts, GURPS, etc. Pathfinder is fantasy, not cross-genre. I no more want Psionics in it than I want the Internet in it. Nostradamus was called a mystic, not a psion. Now, does that mean that there can't be some offshoot, alternative setting which has the Internet and psionics? Not at all. But the core setting should be heavily about generic fantasy with the generic fantasy tropes.
Ah yes, the internet, that bastion and most powerufl of fantasy tropes.
Wait, what?
Nostradamus was a psion. He was a seer.
And "generic fantasy" is an oxymoron. As soon as something is generic, it's no longer fantastic. Nor is this "cross-genre," and I eagerly await you proving how it possibly could be.
You can easily reflavor a Ranger (or even a Paladin) as a Psychic Warrior. A Rogue with a summonable weapon is an easy standin for a Soulknife, as they already have the same bonuses to damage, just a different set of conditions to apply them. Wilder is already pretty close in flavor to the Sorcerer.You can take a refluffed sorcerer if you want to, but you will have a hard time finding a player who loved the 3.5 psionics system willing to call it a good replacement for their character - not impossible, but most will say "meh" and shrug and not bother. How do you resolve the psychic warrior, or the wilder, or the soulknife this way?
You could easily reflavor fighters to be rangers and paladins.
But we don't.
The "Psionics = Sci-Fi" thing partially comes from the fact that the word "Psionics" actually came from "Psychic Electronics". It was originally a word for technologically enhanced psychics. Popular usage has shifted the word to mean general mental powers instead.
The "should there be psionics in D&D" debate is as old as D&D itself. I certainly don't mind it, but it should be an optional subsystem that people can choose to add or ignore.
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Prof.
Wowser, Prof. this thread is turning into that scene from a western where the town drunk loses it: "What, you wanna fight, I'll fight ya. I'll fight ya! All of ya! I don't care why!"
On the Nostradamus thing... I don't think the people of his time and place would have recognised the notion of 'psychic' or 'psion' but they understood that Nostradamus was a 'seer' or 'mystic'.
It's a reminder that a few changes to the fluff can really help to integrate psionics with the typical PathfinderRPG setting.
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I'd say it can have a sci-fi flavour, but it definitely doesn't have to.
>>snip<<
The psionic powers do have a strong "sci-fi" flavour in their naming, though. Look at the list of psi powers from 3.5e (HERE)
You'll find things like
Metafaculty
Metaconcert
Microcosm
Entangling Ectoplasm
Biofeedback
Synesthete
Metabolism
Hypercognition It does read like a cross between a psychiatry magazine and the list of bands attending some really weird festival.
It looked more to me as though Bruce Cordell and Christopher Lindsay had read Julian May's Pliocene Exile and Galactic Milieu books (five basic areas of psychic power: creativity, coercion, psychokinesis, farsensing, and redaction; psychics can combine their powers in a metaconcert; etc.)
If you want a cross-genre game, there's several out there - TORG, Rifts, GURPS, etc. Pathfinder is fantasy, not cross-genre. I no more want Psionics in it than I want the Internet in it. Nostradamus was called a mystic, not a psion. Now, does that mean that there can't be some offshoot, alternative setting which has the Internet and psionics? Not at all. But the core setting should be heavily about generic fantasy with the generic fantasy tropes.Ah yes, the internet, that bastion and most powerufl of fantasy tropes.
Wait, what?
Nostradamus was a psion. He was a seer.
And "generic fantasy" is an oxymoron. As soon as something is generic, it's no longer fantastic. Nor is this "cross-genre," and I eagerly await you proving how it possibly could be.
If you want to get pedantic about pushing him into the game system, Nostradamus was, at best, a Wizard. There are descriptions of how he entered his trances. They involve material components (a bowl of water) which the psionic rules don't have.
As for fantasy, I'm sorry you aren't familiar with the genre. But to clarify, just because something is fantastic doesn't mean it belongs in the fantasy genre. I'm sure there are good resources on the web describing the different genres of stories. Read up on them.
"I don't need to answer you" = So you don't have an answer
LILITH'S THRALL LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! Play her on out!
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"I don't need to answer you" = So you don't have an answer
LILITH'S THRALL LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! Play her on out!
I've never seen anyone take The Tough Guide to Fantasyland* as prescriptive, not descriptive.
*Great book, btw. I highly recommend it.
All the magic systems should use a similar method of casting and yes I include Psionics in that. I never liked Vancian magic maybe the magic system should be more flexible, but whatever that answer is it should essentially apply across the board.I find magic systems where everybody casts in the exact same way boring. Straight-up Vancian magic has a different feel than spontaneous Vancian casting, which has a different feel than power points.
When I play a bookish wizard, I want the experience of playing that wizard to feel vastly different than the experience of playing a telekinetic wild talent. If they used the same casting mechanic, they would no longer feel different to me. At that point, unless I'm playing a rules-lite, narrative RPG where fluff is all that matters (not Pathfinder), the rules have failed me.
I'll second that. You want everyone to use the same mechanic? Been done, got called 4e.
Having different methods of 'magic' with different character choices for players to make is what the game is all about to me. Why should all magic systems be the same? That's boring! It makes as much sense as getting rid of magic altogether.
Sometimes I like playing the studious wizard, a student of the occult and master of the secret mysteries. Sometimes I want to play a psion, a mystic scientist. Sometimes I want to be a sorcerer, drawing on the strength of my arcane herritage, and sometimes a wilder, mind aflame with freakish psychic ability. The reason they all play and feel different for me is in part the way that the mechanics work. The sorcerer is more slap-dash than the wizard. The wilder is more focussed on a few powers than any of them. The psion's command of principals gives them greater flexibility but less scope than the wizards mastery of rituals. The mechanics support all of these. Take them away .... and you just have four wizards.
Clerics and Druids run off of a vancian system yet they always gave me a different feel then Wizards did. Sure there are differences but they do not completely altered the system of spellcasting like a spell point system does.
That is because they cast different spells (wizards cannot cast cures) and they have different class features (clerics can wear armour, channel energy, etc). A psions 'spells' would overlap far to much with a wziard, and those powers are their class features.
Rules shouldn't equal a class.
That is possibly the biggest fallacy ever stated about D&D. If you take away the specific class features, nothing distinguishes any given class from another, because all have exactly the same skills list, BAB, hit points and other abilities. All that can differ is ability scores, skill and feat selection, and these do not have as big an effect on the progress of an adventure. Sure, you can role play them very differently, but that is player input.
Now in a classless system you generally have a much wider variety of influential choices of what makes the character, and the game is designed around those choices, and there is much more emphasis on them, but comparing the two is comparing apples to bananas. D&D is a rules-heavy game where the character class mechanics define the character class. That's what a character class is.
I'll second that. You want everyone to use the same mechanic? Been done, got called 4e.
Having different methods of 'magic' with different character choices for players to make is what the game is all about to me. Why should all magic systems be the same? That's boring! It makes as much sense as getting rid of magic altogether.
Sometimes I like playing the studious wizard, a student of the occult and master of the secret mysteries. Sometimes I want to play a psion, a mystic scientist. Sometimes I want to be a sorcerer, drawing on the strength of my arcane herritage, and sometimes a wilder, mind aflame with freakish psychic ability. The reason they all play and feel different for me is in part the way that the mechanics work. The sorcerer is more slap-dash than the wizard. The wilder is more focussed on a few powers than any of them. The psion's command of principals gives them greater flexibility but less scope than the wizards mastery of rituals. The mechanics support all of these. Take them away .... and you just have four wizards.
The thing that seperates casters in 3.X and PFRPG is class abilities but they run off of the same basic system. In 4th Ed. it's not just that you use the same system but the fact that your class is largely defined by the spell list it has, which you can't escape because even the fighter and rogue have spell lists.
What I see a lot of is a number of people saying "I want spell points, spell points = psions". To me, that sounds ridiculous. I can see a psion as a vancian caster just as I can see every single caster running on spell points. The only real defense I've seen for running a SPS and Vancian system at the same time is that it wouldn't be hard to do. However, to steal some one else's example, it's like giving some classes base attack bonuses and some Thac0 (probably just have to change it to Thac30). Both get you to the same place but are two different systems to accomplish one goal.
Finally when I say "Rules should not equal a class", what I mean is that an alternate magic system does not make a class. There has to be more to it. A wizard is still a wizard whether you're using vancian or a SPS. From what many people are saying a psion must equal a SPS, so if you change it to a vancian system it stops being a psion. A rogue isn't just sneak attack and a fighter isn't just bonus feats.
Use slots and try to make it more flexible without introducing a point system where I can cast the equivalent of Wish umpteen times in a day, and hear the screams of many seared by my NOVA blast.
I hope your being sarcastic because those issues have been gone over in other threads.
Okay... so Psionis rebuilt with slots... Alright that just means a Psionic caster get a Slot pool instead of set numbers of Slots per day. Or rather they get a total pool of spell levels they can cast from their highly limited Spells/Powers known. Augmentation rules get powered off Spell Level/Slot expenditure above a spell's actual level, and of course limited to a maximum total of Spell Levels a Psion can cast based on his level. And be sure to strip all internal caster level based mechanics from all spells, and are only regained through augmentations....
Yuck.
Why should the pion be different? Well, why should it be the same?
The psionics mechanics work on the principal that you have a pool of ability, and you draw from that to manifest powers. Rather than mastering rituals you are mastering principals which you can apply in different ways - that's why powers are more flexible and power points are more flexible. It's a system that is thematically and mechanically a bit different to normal vancian magic, and it's a good system that works well.
Power points were around long before psionic powers were organised into nine levels, they've been around as long as psionics. The latter was only introduce as a 'rosetta stone' to make the psionics system more compatible with the magic system.
I don't want a spell-points system, I'm happy with playing my casters vancian. But I do want a power point system for when I play psionic characters because that system gels very nicely with the concept of the psionic in my mind.
The more I compare the existing Psion class to the Sorcerer (the closest equivalent to PP), the stronger I believe the Psion class is broken. I have nearly 20 different points from the fact that every Psion "familiar" gets fly and construct to the fact that Psions get more skill points (since Int is their prime req), to the fact that they get their highest level powers a level earlier, to the fact that many of their powers have a built-in heighten effect, etc. etc.
It is disingenuous to make this discussion about whether mentalist classes belong in the game.
You're comparing apples to oranges, the psion is based loosely on the wizard for balance purposes, not the sorcerer. You are drawing parralels based on just one feature rather than all the other features:
Psions have specialisations - wizards have specialisations.
Psions have intelligence as their primary ability - wizards have intelligence as their primary ability.
I could go on, but you get the picture. Most comparisons you make between a psion and a sorcerer I could likely make between a sorcerer and a wizard, but you don't complain wizards are broken.
There's an in depth analysis here if you really want to crunch the numbers, but the final conclusion is that actually sorcerers and wizards a slightly more powerful than psions and wilders at the end of the day. The psions and wilders have their advantages, but the arcane casters have more power and at least equal choice.
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If you want a cross-genre game, there's several out there - TORG, Rifts, GURPS, etc. Pathfinder is fantasy, not cross-genre. I no more want Psionics in it than I want the Internet in it. Nostradamus was called a mystic, not a psion. Now, does that mean that there can't be some offshoot, alternative setting which has the Internet and psionics? Not at all. But the core setting should be heavily about generic fantasy with the generic fantasy tropes.
Mmmm, generic fantasy. Now with 100% more blandness!
To return to a more serious note, any arguments of "the core setting" (which is Golarion) shouldn't have psionics in it is completely pointless and a total waste of time. The fact is that Golarion ALREADY HAS psionics and not a thing that anyone (outside of Paizo) can say will change that. Granted, I have no idea of what shape those psionics rules will take (just as an aside, I am in favor of having a PP-based psionics system) but regardless of how they operate, Vancian or not, Psionics, complete with sci-fi flavor, exist on Golarion and will almost certainly (eventually) get rules for them.
Uh, the psion has to sleep 8 hours to get his power points back.
Not all psions get autohypnosis.
Psionics do not have heighten spell. At all. In fact, that's one of the prime problems, that a super augmented power can still be stopped by any measely shield of spell protection.
You're also ignoring that wizards and sorcerers have autoscaling spells, which you better believe is a big deal.
What I'm seeing is that you went in saying "Psions are too powerful" and damn any evidence that says otherwise. Also, make up lies where needed.
And, of course, keep in mind that if the SRD psion would satisfy psionics fans, there'd be no call to Pathfinderize the psion. Psionics fans want an even more powerful Psion.
You know, I'm not even one of the folks who thinks the psion needs "Pathfinderizing," but I think this is a pretty unfair accusation. From what I've read, most folks simply want some in-print rules with the "Pathfinder" imprint to help keep what they love "alive." Also, Paizo's done such a good job with darn near EVERYTHING ELSE it touches, so why wouldn't psionic folks want that flair in their elan (heh heh)?
And, of course, keep in mind that if the SRD psion would satisfy psionics fans, there'd be no call to Pathfinderize the psion. Psionics fans want an even more powerful Psion.You know, I'm not even one of the folks who thinks the psion needs "Pathfinderizing," but I think this is a pretty unfair accusation. From what I've read, most folks simply want some in-print rules with the "Pathfinder" imprint to help keep what they love "alive." Also, Paizo's done such a good job with darn near EVERYTHING ELSE it touches, so why wouldn't psionic folks want that flair in their elan (heh heh)?
I see you are new to Lilith's Thrall ;p
Showing all the ways that Psions are broken compared to wizards is like shooting fish in a barrel. Here are three;
You've listed six, and shooting them down is even easier.
1.) Psion "familiars" are all superior to Wizard familiars. They all gain flight, they all gain the construct immunities, there's no need to trade off forex. flight for bluff bonus.
Let's look at the disadvantages of psicrystals:
a) Psions have to pay a feat for their familiars, wizards do not. There is not guarantee that a psion will have a psicrystal, and if they don't they do not get the advantages of an arcane bond either.
b) Psicrystals have no attacks, familiars do, so if a psicrystal is attacked it cannot defend itself.
c) Their abilities scale with level, they don't get flight until the manifester is at least 9th level, while a wizard can choose an owl, bat etc. at first level.
I don't see how the wizard can claim to be getting the worst of this trade-off.
2.) Autohypnosis
Is a skill any character can take. It is not restricted to psionic characters, nor is it essential to any character.
3.) A wizard must sleep 8 hours and then prepare his spells. A psion doesn't
A psion must rest eight hours to regain their power points, and have a much more restricted list of known powers they cannot vary. As the more spells per day of the sorcerer is generally considered less flexible and powerful than the wizard's ability to cherry pick his spells, I don't see how it suddenly gets superior with the psion.
4.) A psion can choose how many times to cast a particular spell spontaneusly. A wizard can't and will likely memorize a particular spell multiple times.
He can also leave spell slots empty and then spend ten minutes to learn just the right spell he needs when the time arises. He can know hundreds of spells and pick from any of them as the occasion demands. See comment on the sorcerer above - the wizard is ahead of the game on the sorcerer on points 3 & 4, they suddenly don't lose effectiveness in comparison with the psion.
5.) Many Psion powers have the equivalent of Heighten spell built right in and enable energy type to be selected at the spur of the moment.
Yep, and they cost with it. A wizard at level five casts shocking grasp, he gets 5d6 damage for a first level spell slot. The psion wants to manifest dissipating touch with 5d6 damage, that costs 5 power points, the same as 3rd level power slot there and then. Augmentation is a double-edgded sword, it has an up-side and down-side, and the downside is that most psionic powers that if they were spells would scale with level have to be paid for instead with augmentation. This reduces the psion's already inferior resources.
6.) Psions can heal
Only themselves unless you count empathic transfer which is a really dicey power to use when you have the lowest hit die in the deck. Certainly not on the level of the cleric, which makes such healing of very limited use.
Now what can wizards do that psions cannot? well the entire school of necromancy has no psionic equivelant, psionics has few powers that could be called illusions and they are of very limited scope, and the same goes for abjuration.
In terms of "you can do something I can't" the wizard comes out a clear winner.
And, of course, keep in mind that if the SRD psion would satisfy psionics fans, there'd be no call to Pathfinderize the psion. Psionics fans want an even more powerful Psion.
On top of that ...
So points 1, 2, 3 are pretty much even; 5 can be argued wither way, it depends on the circumstances; 4 and 6 are clearly in the wizard's favour. If any class is broken, it isn't the psion.
Let's list all the things the wizard has that the psion does not have any equivalence of at all in Pathfinder shall we?
7) wizards get more resources than the psion - the psion gets 36 powers and the wizard can learn an open-ended number of spells. if you convert the specialist wizards spells/day into power points he's ahead of the psion on level equivalence too. For example, a level 20 wizard with 20 intelligence has the equivelant of 431 power points, a level 20 psion with 20 intelligence has 393 (it's also true of the 3.5 wizard, but I don't have the numbers to hand). However, it is fair to say that the psions system of resources is easier to manage efficiently, so I'm happy to call this one even.
8) Cantrips. Wizards have unlimited cantrips per day for read magic, detect magic, light, know direction etc. The psion has NO 0-level abilities at all, those abilities that are the equivalents of cantrips included in his powers list are 1st level powers and cost resources to use.
9) School Powers. Wizards get three bonus powers for their specialisation in magic, psions get nothing.
So yes, actually some minor powers the psionic characters can use without costing power points would be helpful, and a few flavour powers for the specialists would go a little way to catching up with the wizard. Also, some powers could do with nerfing the way some spells were, that I will not deny, in order to bring the psionic characters into the pathfinder mould.
So yes, that's why psionics lovers would like a supplement: to bring hit dice, free abilities, and powers and the like in line with the standard Pathfinder have established so that they can contribute to a party on a par with existing spell-casters.
For psychic flavor.
Something that could help to give the psionic a more fantasy feel for some would be a simple change of name. Psychic is simple enough and pretty much encompasses all the the psionic abilities under one roof.
I always felt that a psychic was less about drastically changing reality with knowledge and more about seeing the inner workings of the mind and soul and manipulating them to their will with minor or medium changes. Arcane casters can study (or are born with) and understand the inner workings of the universe and that give them power. Divine casters are given this power. Psychics I feel are (like sorcerers) born with the ability to be in tune with the reality, but are much more in tune with the spiritual aspect of life. Psychic powers aren't from the universe or some deity. It is from within.
Something I would like to see is more focus on the paranormal aspect of psionics. Things such as:
- Clairsentience, the ability to perceive beyond what is normal.
- Shamanism, a nature-esque communion with spirits of nature as well as spirits of the dead. Something I think 4th Edition did well was separating druids from divine casters to the more apt "primal".
- Psychometry, the ability to learn the history of an object by touch
- Channeling and Mediums, focusing on contact with the incorporeal dead and other spirits.
- Seers, prophets that can use clairsentience and pre/recognition
- Astral Projection
- Faith Healing
- Expanding on the Qi/Prana based mechanics that the monk has for the more martial psionic classes.
- Some foci that isn't crystals only, such as cards, certain charms like a dreamcatcher, dare I say... spoons? ;)
While there can still be telekinetisists and telepaths and soulblades and crystals, a more focus on the paranormal aspect of psionics would help wonders with making it fit a bit more into the fantasy realm
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Uh, the psion has to sleep 8 hours to get his power points back.
Not all psions get autohypnosis.
Psionics do not have heighten spell. At all. In fact, that's one of the prime problems, that a super augmented power can still be stopped by any measely shield of spell protection.
You're also ignoring that wizards and sorcerers have autoscaling spells, which you better believe is a big deal.
What I'm seeing is that you went in saying "Psions are too powerful" and damn any evidence that says otherwise. Also, make up lies where needed.
If you had bothered to pay attention to answers you don't like, you would have found that I said many psion spells have the equivalent of heighten spell built right into the power. Given that's the case, it's no problem that they don't have a heighten feat, they don't need it.
The only ones who don't have autohypnosis are those who choose not to take it. Because of that, the arguement that not all of them have it is blatantly weak. And it's a trained skill, so the poster who said that anybody can have it needs to go read the rules again.
As for autoscaling, it's not that big of a deal. A first level power autoscaled to fifth level will never be as powerful as a third level power cast out fifth level without autoscaling.
Of which the Psion must still be of appropriate level to cast.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Uh, the psion has to sleep 8 hours to get his power points back.
Not all psions get autohypnosis.
Psionics do not have heighten spell. At all. In fact, that's one of the prime problems, that a super augmented power can still be stopped by any measely shield of spell protection.
You're also ignoring that wizards and sorcerers have autoscaling spells, which you better believe is a big deal.
What I'm seeing is that you went in saying "Psions are too powerful" and damn any evidence that says otherwise. Also, make up lies where needed.
If you had bothered to pay attention to answers you don't like, you would have found that I said many psion spells have the equivalent of heighten spell built right into the power. Given that's the case, it's no problem that they don't have a heighten feat, they don't need it.
The only ones who don't have autohypnosis are those who choose not to take it. Because of that, the arguement that not all of them have it is blatantly weak. And it's a trained skill, so the poster who said that anybody can have it needs to go read the rules again.
As for autoscaling, it's not that big of a deal. A first level power autoscaled to fifth level will never be as powerful as a third level power cast out fifth level without autoscaling.
How long has it been since you read the Psion rules?
Autohypnosis is only a class skill for two of the six Psion disciplines.
And I think the point about it being available to anybody is that anybody can put ranks in it. It's not a 'Psion-only' skill (or a class skill for most psions for that matter).
For psychic flavor.
Something I would like to see is more focus on the paranormal aspect of psionics. Things such as:
- Clairsentience, the ability to perceive beyond what is normal.
- Shamanism, a nature-esque communion with spirits of nature as well as spirits of the dead. Something I think 4th Edition did well was separating druids from divine casters to the more apt "primal".
- Psychometry, the ability to learn the history of an object by touch
- Channeling and Mediums, focusing on contact with the incorporeal dead and other spirits.
- Seers, prophets that can use clairsentience and pre/recognition
- Astral Projection
- Faith Healing
- Expanding on the Qi/Prana based mechanics that the monk has for the more martial psionic classes.
- Some foci that isn't crystals only, such as cards, certain charms like a dreamcatcher, dare I say... spoons? ;)While there can still be telekinetisists and telepaths and soulblades and crystals, a more focus on the paranormal aspect of psionics would help wonders with making it fit a bit more into the fantasy realm
I think the more mystical approach is good, it would help get rid of the "sci-fi stigma". I'd be behind a spirit type monster class too. Mediums have always been a staple of psychics but they don't show up in D&D really.
As for autoscaling, it's not that big of a deal. A first level power autoscaled to fifth level will never be as powerful as a third level power cast out fifth level without autoscaling.
So now we'll try to wave away an advantage psionic characters don't have so they'll look more powerful? Nice...
But, as to "sci-fi flavor," eh, I don't know. My group's been known to pick up the occasional blaster rifle from the city of the gods, invading Oards or marooned Rael, so you probably don't want my opinion anyhow...
Something that is difficult is separating (flavorwise) arcanists from psychics. Both use their minds to alter reality, be it wizards with their intelligence, sorcerers with their natural talent, and psychics with a bit of both. I remember reading The Ultimate Super Mage and The Ultimate Mentalist (Hero System Fourth Edition) about certain ways to differentiate the types of magic.
Arcane magic uses the knowledge of how the universe works and bends it. It is more "intellectual" and bends the laws of physics and mathematic, making the impossible possible. It seems to represent more of the intellectual parts of the universe. The "How" of the universe
Psychics, on the other hand, I see using more of the abstract constants of the universe (Such as the Warring Zoas of Order/Chaos/Art/Nature, the Four Mantle of Beginning/End/Eternity/Infinity, or even Atavisms, spirits of raw emotion and primal drive). Psionics can represent the more emotional and primal parts of the universe. The "What" of the universe.
"Four Mighty Ones are in every Man; a Perfect Unity..." William Blake, The Four Zoas.
I think the more mystical approach is good, it would help get rid of the "sci-fi stigma". I'd be behind a spirit type monster class too. Mediums have always been a staple of psychics but they don't show up in D&D really.
I would love to see that. I'd even like to see Shamans and Mediums added to the list of psychic classes or maybe put together and used to be the psychic analogue of the divine classes (like the psion was the wizard analogue, etc).
This is my opinion. Telekinesis and Telepathy are Psionics even if powered by a spell. If you want to outlaw Psionics, you have to remove all the spells that simulate Psionics.
To the point of the thread: I guess psionics are a bit Sci Fi. For some reason it’s ingrained in our minds to link aliens to little guys with big heads and the ability to communicate with their minds. Star Wars probably didn’t help with its whole “Force” idea (although I think Uncle Owen said of Ben Kenobi: “That wizard’s just a crazy old man.” But that goes to my idea that psionics and magic are different means to the same end, but that’s a different thread), I hear a lot of Eastern Legends have abilities similar to Psions, but I am not that familiar with those, and I have a feeling I’m not alone which might lead to the Sci Fi stigma as well.
I can see the argument that Mana Points might be better than slots, but I don’t see the traditional wizards of myth and legend as more psion like. Gandolf had a staff and magic words, Merlin spoke a magic language, the Harry Potter kids had spells and wands, and even Nostradamus used alchemy and a mirror. I do agree that I can’t think of an example of a Wizard toting around a spellbook and memorizing spells daily, though a lot of the people I mentioned learned magic, it wasn’t gifted (Merlin might be the exception).
I think both systems are good. I really loved 3.5 psionics and thought it fixed a lot of the issues that AD&D 2nd Edition psionics had. I think both have a place in Fantasy, and I am a bit disappointed that Paizo has chosen not to run with the 3.5 system, though I have faith their take on psionics will be fine as well.
How long has it been since you read the Psion rules?
Autohypnosis is only a class skill for two of the six Psion disciplines.
And I think the point about it being available to anybody is that anybody can put ranks in it. It's not a 'Psion-only' skill (or a class skill for most psions for that matter).
So now we'll try to wave away an advantage psionic characters don't have so they'll look more powerful? Nice...
Like I said, welcome to Lilith's Thrall :p.
Note how he/she is pointedly not responding to Dabbler!
As for the sci-fi flavor, I in all honesty don't see where it comes from in the first place. It's admittingly hard for me to show how it's "not" sci-fi, because I don't understand the argument that it is.
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I would love to see that. I'd even like to see Shamans and Mediums added to the list of psychic classes or maybe put together and used to be the psychic analogue of the divine classes (like the psion was the wizard analogue, etc).
I think the more mystical approach is good, it would help get rid of the "sci-fi stigma". I'd be behind a spirit type monster class too. Mediums have always been a staple of psychics but they don't show up in D&D really.
3.5 did this already in complete Psionic. it was meh.
3.5 did this already in complete Psionic. it was meh.I would love to see that. I'd even like to see Shamans and Mediums added to the list of psychic classes or maybe put together and used to be the psychic analogue of the divine classes (like the psion was the wizard analogue, etc).
I think the more mystical approach is good, it would help get rid of the "sci-fi stigma". I'd be behind a spirit type monster class too. Mediums have always been a staple of psychics but they don't show up in D&D really.
Well then I guess they'll have to do a better job ;)
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The pain...
...the power point system doesn't accurately represent psychic powers.
The vancian system is the best system for representing psychic powers.
Every psychic knows that you can only store a finite number of mental constructs within your mindscape before you penal gland fries.
..and every psychic knows that those not born with the mercurial mindsets required to draw forth mental constructs on the fly require time and study to prepare such mental constructs ahead of time.
..and every psychic knows that such mental constructs are layered deep within the subconscious mind, ready to be drawn forth when needed, accessed by combining the appropriate anchoring techniques.
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I know this to be true because I do indeed have AWESOME PSYCHIC POWERS.
I would love to see that. I'd even like to see Shamans and Mediums added to the list of psychic classes or maybe put together and used to be the psychic analogue of the divine classes (like the psion was the wizard analogue, etc).
I think the more mystical approach is good, it would help get rid of the "sci-fi stigma". I'd be behind a spirit type monster class too. Mediums have always been a staple of psychics but they don't show up in D&D really.
Shamism is perhaps better under the divine magic paradigm, in fact the APG has totemic druids, which covers some of it pretty well, and the Spirit Shaman was an interesting class in 3.5.
Mediums, however, would strike me as a kind of Seer, and there are requests for a medium in the DSP psionics for Pathfinder project.
Like I said, welcome to Lilith's Thrall :p.
Note how he/she is pointedly not responding to Dabbler!
I certainly did ... :)
On the Augmenting/Heighten/Autoscaling front, you have to consider:
Vancian Caster - they get all spells scaling at least to a point, but save DCs don't scale.
Psionic Manifester - have to augment powers to make them scale, but get save DCs to increase as well. So they have to pay more for the same effects but get a bonus.
Spells have one effect, powers can have several, but the extra effects often must be paid for and Psionic manifesters gain knowledge of less spells at any given level than spell casters.
It actually does balance out very well.
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.....The pain...
...the power point system doesn't accurately represent psychic powers.
The vancian system is the best system for representing psychic powers.
Every psychic knows that you can only store a finite number of mental constructs within your mindscape before you penal gland fries.
..and every psychic knows that those not born with the mercurial mindsets required to draw forth mental constructs on the fly require time and study to prepare such mental constructs ahead of time.
..and every psychic knows that such mental constructs are layered deep within the subconscious mind, ready to be drawn forth when needed, accessed by combining the appropriate anchoring techniques.
I know this to be true because I do indeed have AWESOME PSYCHIC POWERS.
I use chakra meditations to direct and control my powers. The point I was trying to make earlier was the same. Magic and Psionics use the same energies. Specificly, the brain energies that store the spells in memory, are similar to the visualizations that stop my asthma or speeds up traffic signals. Magic words = mantras. Gestures will help with focusing. The Psychic warrior represented how while everyone has psychic potential, most use them in their jobs. Neraf charge would be impossible without this potental.
I would love to see that. I'd even like to see Shamans and Mediums added to the list of psychic classes or maybe put together and used to be the psychic analogue of the divine classes (like the psion was the wizard analogue, etc).
I think the more mystical approach is good, it would help get rid of the "sci-fi stigma". I'd be behind a spirit type monster class too. Mediums have always been a staple of psychics but they don't show up in D&D really.Shamism is perhaps better under the divine magic paradigm, in fact the APG has totemic druids, which covers some of it pretty well, and the Spirit Shaman was an interesting class in 3.5.
Mediums, however, would strike me as a kind of Seer, and there are requests for a medium in the DSP psionics for Pathfinder project.
Personally, I always felt that more nature-based classes shouldn't be divine. It never felt right to me. That's why I did like how 4 edition made the primal power source. But that's a discussion for another time.
I took a look at the shaman options for the druid in the APG and none of them really scream shaman to me. I liked the Super Genius Guide to the Shaman the best. It focused on the spirits of the deceased and the spirits of nature more. You could summon ancestors of yours as easily as, say, a wolf spirit. That's mostly why I felt it could be a good candidate for psychics
A Medium class would be excellent. Either that or a medium option for one of the already established classes. Channeling spirits could be a bit similar to summon monster and could have both in combat and out of combat bonuses.