RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I prefer games that start as vulnerable 1st level heroes, and wind up with superheroes that slay dragons, save the world etc. The tracking of food and ammo can be done in both extremes, but generally after low levels isn't a worry since they're easily affordible (as well as extra dimensional storage for lots of them as needed.)
Banning healing potions seems to just punish parties that don't have healers of their own. If you want to play a gritty campaign with little or no magical healing, I'd personally rather just add levels to all healing spells - so a cure light wounds is level 3 spell, and add 2 (or 1 level if you don't want to go as extreme) to all other healing spells as well. That would make low level play very dangerous, but eventually allow for magical healing, which is pretty much part of the assumed dynamic of the game and needed at high levels where you receive 50+ damage to all characters each battle often. If I did this though, I'd probably boost alchemical healing for lower levels and/or 1st level healing spells that accelerate natural healing (think there's a spell like this in the APG.)
I play superheros way too much, but I actually prefer vulnerable and low level characters.
Crossing a destroyed bridge with nothing to help you is a way better challenge than killing a balor while having all the equipment you want.
This is why I normally grade fly spells and similar things a spelllevel higher than normal.
But hunger and misery isn't really what makes the most fun for me. I prefer getting beaten by a group of orcs, sold to the duergar slave-trader and bought by a drow as arena-fighter-entertainer and escaping with epic luck (no deus ex machina) chased by a horde of giant spiders.
In short, as DM and player I like the characters to loose everything every now and then, but being half starved in wood and having the adventure of "find some mushrooms so you don't starve, and pray they aren't poisonous" isn't the biggest thrill ever.
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Getting some food in a forest isn't that hard. Just tell your DM you are gonna look for some food and roll a survival check.
One of the things I would want to play/GM is a prison adventure. Not the stupid ''you escape when the guard isn't looking'' kind, but the ''we've been here for months now'' kind. It's the kind of game where both GM and players have to work very organized.
I just wanted to add that from the thread title I thought this was going to be about taking extra damage if batman hit you or something.
I like to play vulnerable surrounded by superhero types. All of my characters have flaws. right now I play as a Halfling cleric. Guys around me are doing 10 - 15 damsage a round and I might do 4 if I'm lucky. Put I got a huge chip on my shoulder and boast about my bravery from the back of the herd.
To me it's not how gritty or how decorated my character is, it's the story and the encounters and the other party members and the DM being able to get me engrossed in the action. I've played Dark Sun where we had bone spears and loincloths (which we dubbed "quest for water") on up to games where a 9th level paladin had a Holy Avenger and +5 platemail (note it was not my character, but my character was nearly equally decked out in high end gear). As a player I'm very flexible as to what style of game I will play in.
As a DM I tend to prefer starting characters out as "regulars" (albeit with a bent towards risk and adventure, unlike most others) who can rise to great heights of power, wealth, and status through their actions and adventures. I tend to run long running campaigns (2 to 5 years in length) and by end game the PCs are expected to be 20th level. I don't run a magic mart style of game, but I don't starve my PCs for gear, either. They acquire what they need, one way or another.
I like to play vulnerable surrounded by superhero types. All of my characters have flaws. right now I play as a Halfling cleric. Guys around me are doing 10 - 15 damsage a round and I might do 4 if I'm lucky. Put I got a huge chip on my shoulder and boast about my bravery from the back of the herd.
Good for you to dare to be different. I might keep my voice down if I were you, though, because there are several people on these boards who would euthanize you for the horrible crime of not being able to "pull your weight" in combat.
I just wanted to add that from the thread title I thought this was going to be about taking extra damage if batman hit you or something.I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that.
Same here.
hi guys. just wondering if you guys prefer playing as a band of straggling adventurers or as a group of world renowned dragon slayers who save the world.
None of the above. We usually use one of the nigh-infinite other options.
We spent the extra money to get the Deluxe edition of the game. It removes all the switches and gives you dials instead. On one end is "pathetic" on the other "godlike", and you can freely adjust.
It has dials for all sorts of things the basic games only has on-off switches for. I can only recommend it!
:P
We ban healing potions
We don't. Despite that, we hardly see or use them.
and make sure you keep track of food, ammo and weight.
I'd like to play in your group. I have been having problems falling asleep of late, and this might be just what I need. ;-P
We're all about heroics and grand adventure and not about tracking how much TP is left or make sure we all have flint-and-steel or other boring stuff like that.
there has never been a funner game for us than when we are lost in the wilderness, down to our last scraps of food / water, with a semi conscious paladin, cursed rouge and a ranger with 3 arrows left.
Man, do you need to get out more, you're missing out big time!
Seriously, though, you don't need to bore players with micromanagement all the time just to have something like that once in a while!
Just tell them: "Well, you are now completely lost! You don't know where you are, or where you could get any supplies. You packed standard provisions when you started out, so from now on you have to track that."
BAM! Instant situation where every bite counts, all without mind numbing tedium in the rest of the campaign.
Plus, whenever a situation like this occurs in one of our games, the characters are fine, anyway - outdoors types (there's usually at least one around) will forage for food, water and shelter, and spellcasters will use emergency spells if hard pressed.
we also give pretty rubbish stats to begin with so that our charicters are lmited in what they can do. if you want to make a ranger with 18 str and you only roll a 14 that is a limitation you have to work past.
It's a limitation that makes that character impossible from the word go.
If I were inclined to force them to play low-powered characters, I'd give them few points to purchase stuff with. I wouldn't let them roll. But, then again, I never let them roll. Too much potential for things that are messed up. Too many games I played where someone rolled ridiculously well and dominated. Too many games where the stats someone rolled meant he simply could not play the character he wanted to.
Beyond that, I'm usually quite generous with the character framework. They're still 1st-level characters to start with, and thus limited in what they could do. And I can still give them tough challenges.
it makes a frail team that needs to watch what they do and work together all the time.
Same here. The teamwork part. If they don't work together, they will fail, especially the harder encounters. Doesn't matter how powerful they think they be.
Always remember: Power is relative. Just because you get 25 points to purchase your abilities it doesn't mean that you dominate all the time. Others can get those 25 points, too. Or 30. Or 102 (that's all 18s).
(For the record: I have not given any NPC 30 or even 102 points. Yet)
but i see alot of people here with uber optimised builds with 500000 point buy ins,
You're sure you're not reading poker forums instead?
the worst thing that can happen is run out of money for potions.
Seriously: Potions? Maybe in some computer game - but not in PF. Potions might be a nice way to heal (though expensive, that money is better spent for other things) when you have time to kill, but when some huge brute of a critter is bearing down on you, intent on murdering you and tearing chunks out of you that are bigger than you are, no potion will help you. You need a proper healer to patch you up.
Personally I like a more heroic feel to my game. I have played in 'survive in the wilderness' type games, and for me at least, its really boring. Tracking food and ammo after low levels gets kind of tedious to the point where my group more or less handwaves it. And having to role survival checks over and over to find food is the definition of boring for me. I play these games to escape reality, and for that reason I much prefer to lean closer to superhero then struggling band of anything. If I wanted to play a highly realistic game I would almost certainly use a different system that lent itself better to it.
Tracking food and ammo after low levels gets kind of tedious to the point where my group more or less handwaves it. And having to role survival checks over and over to find food is the definition of boring for me. I play these games to escape reality...
Reminds me of a criticism I heard from a player in one of my first campaigns. A player told me "I'd like a little less reality in my fantasy, please." I took it to heart and stopped micromanaging their resources so much.
Tracking food and ammo after low levels gets kind of tedious to the point where my group more or less handwaves it. And having to role survival checks over and over to find food is the definition of boring for me. I play these games to escape reality...Reminds me of a criticism I heard from a player in one of my first campaigns. A player told me "I'd like a little less reality in my fantasy, please." I took it to heart and stopped micromanaging their resources so much.
Sounds like something i'd say. Its all a matter of style after all. For instance, one of our group members once ran a horror themed game, and obviously there were lots of elements there I normally wouldn't want in a 'normal' fantasy game, as you certainly dont feel heroic when constantly fleeing for your life.
I like heroic games where even with their heroism the characters are vulnerable and struggling to make it. Games where even when you are super powerful you are not super powerful enough and end up fighting and clawing your way to victory.
So I guess I blend the two extremes. I love high point buy or roll methods that generate high scores in general because I hate dump stats. I want to feel like my character is a cut above everyone else, but also that only because he/she is that cut above does he/she survive.
I prefer games that start as vulnerable 1st level heroes, and wind up with superheroes that slay dragons, save the world etc.
+1.
@ the OP: How does your group survive low levels without healing. I don't think a group could survive under me with me banning potions and going out of the way to make the game hard. Now if the DM is fudging dice or helping you in other ways then it kind of gets rid of the point of making the rules the way you guys have them.
I like heroic games where even with their heroism the characters are vulnerable and struggling to make it. Games where even when you are super powerful you are not super powerful enough and end up fighting and clawing your way to victory.
I second that emotion.
So to sum it up:
Fighting a desperate fight against impossible odds and prevailing = heroic, fun.
Fighting a desperate fight against starvation and the inventory sheet = boring.
Tracking mundane things is just not heroic. You can have the "fight against nature itself" without turning the game into an economics sim.
I saw bad GMs having fun letting players fail because they forgot to bring torches, but is that satisfactory for anyone? Unless I get stats for grues, I get nothing out of this.
So I thought about making up a list of standard gear every adventurer has and needs: flint and steel, 50ft rope, piece of chalk, and so on. My idea was that whenever I made a character, I'll copy the list onto the character sheet.
And then it hit me: Why bother? Why make people do this? It would basically be the same every time. You'd copy a list of a dozen things or so onto your sheet every single time. That's the sort of crap I hate putting up with in real world, where it often cannot be helped. But this is a make-believe game of escapism. It definitely can be helped.
So my rule of "I assume you have standard gear. No need to write anything down. No need to remember a list." was born. A no-brainer, really.
I don't even dock them any pay for it. Neither do I let them keep track for stuff like how much they paid for board and lodging, provided they stay within their needs.
It's the same thing. It doesn't really add to the enjoyment of the game. The stuff is so cheap that it doesn't matter except maybe way early in level 1. Couple of GP a day? Laughable! The cheapest magic weapon costs over 2000 and any martially inclined character will not have one of these as his primary weapon for long.
I have found way more satisfying and devious ways to torture my players! }>
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I take a different view on this.
We generally run a more "vulnerable" style of play - more gritty, with the heroics made up by the player’s actions and decisions in the face of adversity - not a default due to build or ability - but purely based on motivation and action. Playing more Post-Apocalyptic or modern horror rpgs may be a factor as that style spills over to our fantasy gaming.
As far as the torch example in my group the outcome would be
- improvise, if the low level players decide to rough it they may get some kind of weak light source which would make their low level exploration all the more creepy/stressed.
- go back to town to pick up torches and anything else they forgot, the local braggarts will make fun of them, there will be some drama, embarrassment, and laughs at the party's expense. Later, when the party comes back in a week laden with coins and other loot the ridicule will turn to friendly laughs and the whole thing becomes a story.
So months or years later when they are 5th level and hanging out in their towns tavern - already proven heroes - they may get a jibe or laugh from some of the old timers, but those old timers know that as fallible and mortal as they are the PCs are the real deal, true heroes who are there to help protect their home. Even if the torch story may still cause some laughs years later.
To me it's about immersion -I would only assume a default "oh yeah, you brought that" when dealing with some abstractions related to gaming - clerics and paladins bringing prayer books, what are all the specific items in a thief's took kit, etc. In other words things that a player might never know to bring, or not know if his character even has those items as a default. On the other hand if the theme for their early low level play is exploration I would help them with gear selection and questions, but not assume that they would all have that gear.
Just my take, there is no right or wrong and different groups are each trying to get their own things out of gaming.
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Personally I like a more heroic feel to my game.
Isn't it more heroic to face evil when there's the possibility of it defeating you, than going in brimming with so much power that there's no possibility of defeat?
Joe the 1st level commoner killing a troll is more heroic than Thor, god of thunder, killing the same troll.
I've run the gamut of adventures many, many times (from 1st level adventures on up to Masters level encounters...Masters being the epic-level Basic game) and I've found the DM can always challenge his players if he's of a mind to. You may have to get creative, but it can be done.
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Personally I like a more heroic feel to my game.Isn't it more heroic to face evil when there's the possibility of it defeating you, than going in brimming with so much power that there's no possibility of defeat?
Joe the 1st level commoner killing a troll is more heroic than Thor, god of thunder, killing the same troll.
I don't think that anyone here would argue that comparison, but what most people would be looking for - with regard to scope/scale in gaming is -
a group of commoners bringing down a troll = heroicThor fighting the son of the the king of all trolls and demi-god of cannibals = heroic
Both are heroic, the first being more "Eaters of the Dead" while the latter is more akin to folklore. Most groups - based on style, character level and degree of magic - fall somewhere in between.
Personally I like a more heroic feel to my game.Isn't it more heroic to face evil when there's the possibility of it defeating you, than going in brimming with so much power that there's no possibility of defeat?
Joe the 1st level commoner killing a troll is more heroic than Thor, god of thunder, killing the same troll.
Let's ignore the fact that his commoner is now troll food.
Not tracking the number of nibbles you have taken off your lembas, or making everyone copy a list of standard items onto every single character sheet (or, if you're smart, make a sheet where the stuff is already noted in the equipment section) doesn't preclude danger.
25 point epic purchase doesn't mean you're indomitable.
Personally I like a more heroic feel to my game.Isn't it more heroic to face evil when there's the possibility of it defeating you, than going in brimming with so much power that there's no possibility of defeat?
Joe the 1st level commoner killing a troll is more heroic than Thor, god of thunder, killing the same troll.
I don't think that anyone here would argue that comparison, but what most people would be looking for - with regard to scope/scale in gaming is -
a group of commoners bringing down a troll = heroic
Thor fighting the son of the the king of all trolls and demi-god of cannibals = heroicBoth are heroic, the first being more "Eaters of the Dead" while the latter is more akin to folklore. Most groups - based on style, character level and degree of magic - fall somewhere in between.
Yea its all down to preference. I like feeling powerful and facing off with powerful enemies to go along with it. I dislike the stlye where the players are CONSTANTLY getting their ass kicked by things that arent the big bads, that to me doesnt feel heroic. And certainly I want a chance of losing, i just dont want it to be the norm, instead of just a chance. Aragorn doesnt lose a fight to 1 orc, but he has trouble with 50 plus lurtz, Batman doesnt feel threatened by 1 punk, but a bunch of them plus the joker's elaborate trap is a real threatening situation. I want as a character to feel truly expectional (and thus like a hero) and be faced with equally exceptional challenges.
I'm going to borrow words from someone who put it in better words than I could come up with.
...games have a human-sized scale, not a super-powered scale...
...Truly high-level characters have precious items accumulated over a career of adventuring; they usually have some measure of political power, at least a stronghold. They are deadly when facing normal
opponents … but they aren’t invincible....the fantasy of taking a guy without tremendous powers – a guy much like yourself but somewhat stronger, or with slight magic powers – and becoming a king or a feared sorcerer over time. It’s not about a guy who can, at the start of the game, take on ten club-wielding peasants at once. It’s got a real-world, gritty starting point. And your character isn’t personally ever going to become stronger than a dragon. At higher levels, he may be able to kill a dragon with his sword or with spells, but never by grabbing its throat and strangling it in a one-on-one test of strength.
To make a comic-book analogy, characters don’t become Superman; they become Batman. And they don’t start as Batman – Batman is the pinnacle. He’s a bit faster than normal, a bit stronger than normal, he’s got a lot of cash, a Bat Cave, a butler, a henchman (Robin) and cool gadgets. But he can’t leap tall buildings in a single bound.
Old school gaming is about the triumph of the little guy into an epic hero, not the development of an epic hero into a superhuman being. There’s nothing wrong with the latter, it’s just that old-style fantasy matches up with the former.
I'm going to borrow words from someone who put it in better words than I could come up with.
...games have a human-sized scale, not a super-powered scale...
...Truly high-level characters have precious items accumulated over a career of adventuring; they usually have some measure of political power, at least a stronghold. They are deadly when facing normal
opponents … but they aren’t invincible....the fantasy of taking a guy without tremendous powers – a guy much like yourself but somewhat stronger, or with slight magic powers – and becoming a king or a feared sorcerer over time. It’s not about a guy who can, at the start of the game, take on ten club-wielding peasants at once. It’s got a real-world, gritty starting point. And your character isn’t personally ever going to become stronger than a dragon. At higher levels, he may be able to kill a dragon with his sword or with spells, but never by grabbing its throat and strangling it in a one-on-one test of strength.
To make a comic-book analogy, characters don’t become Superman; they become Batman. And they don’t start as Batman – Batman is the pinnacle. He’s a bit faster than normal, a bit stronger than normal, he’s got a lot of cash, a Bat Cave, a butler, a henchman (Robin) and cool gadgets. But he can’t leap tall buildings in a single bound.
Old school gaming is about the triumph of the little guy into an epic hero, not the development of an epic hero into a superhuman being. There’s nothing wrong with the latter, it’s just that old-style fantasy matches up with the former.
I wouldnt dispute that this style of game is fun, and if that's more to your liking awesome, but I would dispute the idea that it is 'the original' or 'old school' and that the characters that start strong is somehow 'new'. I think there is little question that the fantasy genre and it's entirety are inspired by tolkien, yet aragorn very much started the story being able to take on a dozen club weilding anythings. Gandalf was not lacking for capability at the start of either the hobbit or the lord of the rings trilogy. This is not the lone example of this. In some of Jack Vance's stories the beggining characters (the wizards) are already among the most powerful beings on the planet.
I can see the more gritty thing (though I prefer heroic), but this "Zero becoming hero" thing never did it for me. Why does he become a hero? It's either Luck, Fate, or the Gods.
If it's Luck, it makes for a crappy game, because for every time you become the hero, you have to play a million campaigns for 10 minutes until he dies, because Luck was not with you.
If it's Deus Ex Machina, it's a crappy game, because nothing you do will really change anything. The GM tells the story, helps you every time you're in over your head (which is every time), and keeps your character alive at all cost.
I think heroes should arise from hero material. Doesn't mean they cannot start small (or there would be no low levels), but it doesn't mean you have to play a commoner 1 with 5 point purchase or something, either.